@chilone said:

@ajsmitty89 said:

Your use of the word racism is false. Racism is the child of race, not the other way around. Those with darker skin didn't create the term 'race', that was European colonizers. So if that makes you uncomfortable, that is something you need to deal with on your own. It's not the job of minorities to make you feel comfortable about a subject that threatens their very existence. Everyone deserves to have a perspective, not just White people.

Can people be bigotted against white people? Yes. Prejudiced? Yes. Racist? Absolutely not.

Nope. My use of YOUR definition of racism is false to you. People of any race can be racists. Sorry if you don't want to accept that but it's the truth. By the way, people with "darker skin" are also racist against other "darker skin" people. Feel free to "deal with that on YOUR own".

You're right. People with darker skin can be racist against other people with darker skin. And it's not my definition of racism you're combatting. It's your ancestors'. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. Superior, superior race. Black people aren't saying they're superior, just equal. That's not racist, that's equity. Racial equity isn't racism. Proving your body is livable is not racist, it's just survival. No one else tries to say they're superior to white people. Only White people have made that claim. So you can't be racist against white people, they're already the superior race, right?

@chilone said:

@ajsmitty89 said:

Your use of the word racism is false. Racism is the child of race, not the other way around. Those with darker skin didn't create the term 'race', that was European colonizers. So if that makes you uncomfortable, that is something you need to deal with on your own. It's not the job of minorities to make you feel comfortable about a subject that threatens their very existence. Everyone deserves to have a perspective, not just White people.

Can people be bigotted against white people? Yes. Prejudiced? Yes. Racist? Absolutely not.

Nope. My use of YOUR definition of racism is false to you. People of any race can be racists.

Yes, kinda, but you have yet to demonstrate the relativity of power/system/institution in your working definition. Here in the west, NO, not all races have equal power to establish systems that institutionalize advantage and disadvantage.

By the way, people with "darker skin" are also racist against other "darker skin" people.

That may be true, in some parts of the world; and, even, in some permutation, here in the West. But, by and large, again, no, PoC do not have the power to establish systemic advantage/disadvantage throughout our society's institutions.

In other words, a show that perpetuates stereotypes about PoC here in the West can empower people to support and defend the systemic/institutional disadvantage foisted upon them; however, a show that suggests that "all white people are evil" hardly empower courts and judges and teachers and bus drivers and cab drivers and cops and landlords and mortage brokers and banks and recreational facilities and...and...and...to make life harder for white people.

Regardless what the diversity looks like on the street level in your average city, town, or hamlet, the disproportionate majority of senators, governors, mayors, chiefs of police, presidents of banks, universities, law firms, judges, lawyers, media personalities, remain, magically, white males.

It should strike any reasonable person that a country shouting to the world that it is a champion of equality and equal opportunity, with a citizenry that is half or even more than female, has NEVER had a female POTUS. How on earth can anyone construe that as government of "the people, for the people, by the people"? Are all the female American citizens all of a sudden not "people"? Other countries around the world have had women as heads of state, while the United States talks one thing with its grandiose Constitution, yet walks a very different thing, somehow only seeing fit to elect white men through its entire history. It's increasingly absurd.

So, once again, if you are not factoring the systemic institutionalization of power, privilege, advantage and disadvantage, YOUR definition of "racism" is not in step with the reality of what, mechanically, racism is about in Western socio-political and economic history and contemporary, modern reconsideration and reassessment.

@ajsmitty89 said:

@chilone said:

@ajsmitty89 said:

Your use of the word racism is false. Racism is the child of race, not the other way around. Those with darker skin didn't create the term 'race', that was European colonizers. So if that makes you uncomfortable, that is something you need to deal with on your own. It's not the job of minorities to make you feel comfortable about a subject that threatens their very existence. Everyone deserves to have a perspective, not just White people.

Can people be bigotted against white people? Yes. Prejudiced? Yes. Racist? Absolutely not.

Nope. My use of YOUR definition of racism is false to you. People of any race can be racists. Sorry if you don't want to accept that but it's the truth. By the way, people with "darker skin" are also racist against other "darker skin" people. Feel free to "deal with that on YOUR own".

You're right. People with darker skin can be racist against other people with darker skin. And it's not my definition of racism you're combatting. It's your ancestors'. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. Superior, superior race. Black people aren't saying they're superior, just equal. That's not racist, that's equity. Racial equity isn't racism. Proving your body is livable is not racist, it's just survival. No one else tries to say they're superior to white people. Only White people have made that claim. So you can't be racist against white people, they're already the superior race, right?

You have no idea what I'm "combating" or even IF I'm "combating" anything. You're speaking for all black people by proclaiming what they're saying? A bit presumptuous, don't you think? You're right. Race equality isn't racism and that never was what I was speaking of.

@chilone said:

@ajsmitty89 said:

@chilone said:

@ajsmitty89 said:

Your use of the word racism is false. Racism is the child of race, not the other way around. Those with darker skin didn't create the term 'race', that was European colonizers. So if that makes you uncomfortable, that is something you need to deal with on your own. It's not the job of minorities to make you feel comfortable about a subject that threatens their very existence. Everyone deserves to have a perspective, not just White people.

Can people be bigotted against white people? Yes. Prejudiced? Yes. Racist? Absolutely not.

Nope. My use of YOUR definition of racism is false to you. People of any race can be racists. Sorry if you don't want to accept that but it's the truth. By the way, people with "darker skin" are also racist against other "darker skin" people. Feel free to "deal with that on YOUR own".

You're right. People with darker skin can be racist against other people with darker skin. And it's not my definition of racism you're combatting. It's your ancestors'. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. Superior, superior race. Black people aren't saying they're superior, just equal. That's not racist, that's equity. Racial equity isn't racism. Proving your body is livable is not racist, it's just survival. No one else tries to say they're superior to white people. Only White people have made that claim. So you can't be racist against white people, they're already the superior race, right?

You have no idea what I'm "combating" or even IF I'm "combating" anything. You're speaking for all black people by proclaiming what they're saying? A bit presumptuous, don't you think? You're right. Race equality isn't racism and that never was what I was speaking of.

you were saying portraying white people as villains is considered racist in your opinion. I'm saying it's not racist by definition. although drdmoviemusings stated it better. I'm not speaking for black people. I'm just paraphrasing things already stated on the matter of racism. I'm not saying you're racist, but your actions can be seen as racist.

@ajsmitty89 said:

you were saying portraying white people as villains is considered racist in your opinion. I'm saying it's not racist by definition. although drdmoviemusings stated it better. I'm not speaking for black people. I'm just paraphrasing things already stated on the matter of racism. I'm not saying you're racist, but your actions can be seen as racist.

Well, there are a lot of people who actually say, if you are white, you are a racist and there's nothing you can do about it. I reject that completely.

@chilone said:

@ajsmitty89 said:

you were saying portraying white people as villains is considered racist in your opinion. I'm saying it's not racist by definition. although drdmoviemusings stated it better. I'm not speaking for black people. I'm just paraphrasing things already stated on the matter of racism. I'm not saying you're racist, but your actions can be seen as racist.

Well, there are a lot of people who actually say, if you are white, you are a racist and there's nothing you can do about it. I reject that completely.

You are partially correct, there is something you can do about it. But, it starts with being capable of recognizing that white privilege is like the air we breathe here in the west; and, in that respect, if white people benefit - consciously or unconsciously - from the system, they are conditioned to look at society with themselves at the centre of it, and everyone else are "they/them".

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@chilone said:

@ajsmitty89 said:

you were saying portraying white people as villains is considered racist in your opinion. I'm saying it's not racist by definition. although drdmoviemusings stated it better. I'm not speaking for black people. I'm just paraphrasing things already stated on the matter of racism. I'm not saying you're racist, but your actions can be seen as racist.

Well, there are a lot of people who actually say, if you are white, you are a racist and there's nothing you can do about it. I reject that completely.

You are partially correct, there is something you can do about it. But, it starts with being capable of recognizing that white privilege is like the air we breathe here in the west; and, in that respect, if white people benefit - consciously or unconsciously - from the system, they are conditioned to look at society with themselves at the centre of it, and everyone else are "they/them".

You are right to reject those people's comments, while still acknowledging their emotional validity. They're right to feel angry or frustrated. This is a scary time for the US. Does that make you a racist? No. But I encourage you to take a step back and try not to react. You might find they're not talking to you, really. They just don't know who will listen. They're probably hoping you might.

It's okay to be assertively white, you are who you are. You live in the institution you live in, but that doesn't define you. That changes the moment you choose to be aggressive about your whiteness, to be aggressively white.

If you want, 'With Friends Like These' is a good podcast for hearing conversations like this. The host is Ana-Marie Cox who talks to people from various demographics, including Republican Never-Trumpers who offer their perspective on racism, Islamaphobia, and other topics of discussion in a way that doesn't paint white people as terrible and acknowledges there is a part of the middle US that is also suffering.

She herself is a White Christian woman who respects all perspectives. She's tackled drug abuse, so she doesn't talk down to people. They're not being paid by a larger corporation or lobbyists to express their viewpoints. It's all genuine. You can even call in and message if you have questions or criticisms.

I'm going to be honest, I've been sitting here for 30 minutes (I don't really have) thinking about whether to send this comment. It takes guts to try to reach out and be earnest, trolling is easy. I'm not a Christian, but I'm going to take it on faith that you are a good person. And you just want to be seen that way by people unfamiliar with you. Honestly, that's all they want too.

Is there a difference between being white and being a white supremacist?

(I've written about this elsewhere - but rather than link to it, I'm chipping in to this real-time conversation, conversationally).

I believe - and want to believe - that the answer is "yes". My experiences support the notion that they are not the same.

However, too often, white people themselves demonstrate an inability to separate the two, such that, by their own beliefs, thoughts and actions, they, all too often, act as though they are the same.

Any time some institution, idea or symbol of white supremacy is challenged, too many (not all, but too many) white people get defensive about their whiteness - they, somehow, instinctively decide that a challenge to white supremacy is a challenge to their being white. Why is that?! I think it is because, unconsciously, they know that the institution or symbol of white supremacy has had an influence on how they see themselves in society (which was the entire point of the symbols and institutions in the first place).

The problem here is, in doing so, they themselves represent a frightful idea - that, indeed, inherent in being white in this society is a dependence upon the institutions and symbols of white supremacy; that, indeed, they are, essentially, one and the same.

And that, my friends, is a problem. Why?

It is a problem for both PoC and white people, because "supremacy" is relative. It is not happy being passively equal to others in society. "Supremacy" requires something that is relatively inferior in order for it to exist. And, in order to assert superiority over other groups in a society that purports all people to be equal, white supremacy must be proactive - it must assert its supremacy against the grain, against the current, of social progress towards true equality.

In other words, white supremacy will not play nice with others; it will not peacefully co-exist. And it will see any equality sympathizers as traitors against their race. Heather Hayer was publicly called some despicable things ("n*****r-lover") by white supremacists. She was white - but as sympathizer with equality, she was an enemy, and both the actions of the man who killed her, and her death, were celebrated by white supremacists. Taking proactive action to assert white supremacy is what being a white supermacist is about, by their own admissions.

Again, white supremacy hurts white people, too.

So, if a movie has the audacity to challenge white supremacists tropes - like, the hero must be a white, or the bad guy must be a PoC - dismissing it as "racist" is suggesting that any other narrative but one that satisfies white supremacists' insecurities about their position in society is against all white people. See? It's racist against all white people, because it challenged white supremacy. Thus, white supremacy = whiteness = white supremacy.

If white people want to champion that they are not all racists, then they must be able to join the rest of us in challenging white supremacy without the knee-jerk defense of whiteness.

@ajsmitty89 said:

you were saying portraying white people as villains is considered racist in your opinion. I'm saying it's not racist by definition. although drdmoviemusings stated it better. I'm not speaking for black people. I'm just paraphrasing things already stated on the matter of racism. I'm not saying you're racist, but your actions can be seen as racist.

Well, there are a lot of people who actually say, if you are white, you are a racist and there's nothing you can do about it. I reject that completely.

You are partially correct, there is something you can do about it. But, it starts with being capable of recognizing that white privilege is like the air we breathe here in the west; and, in that respect, if white people benefit - consciously or unconsciously - from the system, they are conditioned to look at society with themselves at the centre of it, and everyone else are "they/them".

You are right to reject those people's comments, while still acknowledging their emotional validity. They're right to feel angry or frustrated. This is a scary time for the US. Does that make you a racist? No. But I encourage you to take a step back and try not to react. You might find they're not talking to you, really. They just don't know who will listen. They're probably hoping you might.

It's okay to be assertively white, you are who you are. You live in the institution you live in, but that doesn't define you. That changes the moment you choose to be aggressive about your whiteness, to be aggressively white.

If you want, 'With Friends Like These' is a good podcast for hearing conversations like this. The host is Ana-Marie Cox who talks to people from various demographics, including Republican Never-Trumpers who offer their perspective on racism, Islamaphobia, and other topics of discussion in a way that doesn't paint white people as terrible and acknowledges there is a part of the middle US that is also suffering.

She herself is a White Christian woman who respects all perspectives. She's tackled drug abuse, so she doesn't talk down to people. They're not being paid by a larger corporation or lobbyists to express their viewpoints. It's all genuine. You can even call in and message if you have questions or criticisms.

I'm going to be honest, I've been sitting here for 30 minutes (I don't really have) thinking about whether to send this comment. It takes guts to try to reach out and be earnest, trolling is easy. I'm not a Christian, but I'm going to take it on faith that you are a good person. And you just want to be seen that way by people unfamiliar with you. Honestly, that's all they want too.

I appreciate your candor and taking the time :) I think the inherent problem in humans is the pendulum never swings back to the middle. It ALWAYS goes to the other side which perpetuates problems. I don't have a racist bone in my body. I was taught to give respect where it is earned and I don't expect it if I haven't earned it. I'm kind to all persons. I work hard and I don't expect or want anything I haven't earned, including opportunity. I gauge people on their merits, good or bad and I try my best to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think if everyone acted in a similar manor, the world would be a better place but unfortunately, it'll never happen.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Is there a difference between being white and being a white supremacist?

(I've written about this elsewhere - but rather than link to it, I'm chipping in to this real-time conversation, conversationally).

I believe - and want to believe - that the answer is "yes". My experiences support the notion that they are not the same.

However, too often, white people themselves demonstrate an inability to separate the two, such that, by their own beliefs, thoughts and actions, they, all too often, act as though they are the same.

Any time some institution, idea or symbol of white supremacy is challenged, too many (not all, but too many) white people get defensive about their whiteness - they, somehow, instinctively decide that a challenge to white supremacy is a challenge to their being white. Why is that?! I think it is because, unconsciously, they know that the institution or symbol of white supremacy has had an influence on how they see themselves in society (which was the entire point of the symbols and institutions in the first place).

The problem here is, in doing so, they themselves represent a frightful idea - that, indeed, inherent in being white in this society is a dependence upon the institutions and symbols of white supremacy; that, indeed, they are, essentially, one and the same.

And that, my friends, is a problem. Why?

It is a problem for both PoC and white people, because "supremacy" is relative. It is not happy being passively equal to others in society. "Supremacy" requires something that is relatively inferior in order for it to exist. And, in order to assert superiority over other groups in a society that purports all people to be equal, white supremacy must be proactive - it must assert its supremacy against the grain, against the current, of social progress towards true equality.

In other words, white supremacy will not play nice with others; it will not peacefully co-exist. And it will see any equality sympathizers as traitors against their race. Heather Hayer was publicly called some despicable things ("n*****r-lover") by white supremacists. She was white - but as sympathizer with equality, she was an enemy, and both the actions of the man who killed her, and her death, were celebrated by white supremacists. Taking proactive action to assert white supremacy is what being a white supermacist is about, by their own admissions.

Again, white supremacy hurts white people, too.

So, if a movie has the audacity to challenge white supremacists tropes - like, the hero must be a white, or the bad guy must be a PoC - dismissing it as "racist" is suggesting that any other narrative but one that satisfies white supremacists' insecurities about their position in society is against all white people. See? It's racist against all white people, because it challenged white supremacy. Thus, white supremacy = whiteness = white supremacy.

If white people want to champion that they are not all racists, then they must be able to join the rest of us in challenging white supremacy without the knee-jerk defense of whiteness.

You make some valid point but a lot of what is happening today exemplifies the pendulum swinging the other way. In today's world, white supremacy is universally condemned, except by the lunatic fringe which will always exist, just as it exists for many equally heinous ideologies, so IMHO the pendulum belongs in the middle. If a certain race, religion, ideology, gender, etc., is saying something, would the same thing be acceptable coming from "the other side"? If not, perhaps some rethinking would be in order.

@chilone said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Is there a difference between being white and being a white supremacist?

(I've written about this elsewhere - but rather than link to it, I'm chipping in to this real-time conversation, conversationally).

I believe - and want to believe - that the answer is "yes". My experiences support the notion that they are not the same.

However, too often, white people themselves demonstrate an inability to separate the two, such that, by their own beliefs, thoughts and actions, they, all too often, act as though they are the same.

Any time some institution, idea or symbol of white supremacy is challenged, too many (not all, but too many) white people get defensive about their whiteness - they, somehow, instinctively decide that a challenge to white supremacy is a challenge to their being white. Why is that?! I think it is because, unconsciously, they know that the institution or symbol of white supremacy has had an influence on how they see themselves in society (which was the entire point of the symbols and institutions in the first place).

The problem here is, in doing so, they themselves represent a frightful idea - that, indeed, inherent in being white in this society is a dependence upon the institutions and symbols of white supremacy; that, indeed, they are, essentially, one and the same.

And that, my friends, is a problem. Why?

It is a problem for both PoC and white people, because "supremacy" is relative. It is not happy being passively equal to others in society. "Supremacy" requires something that is relatively inferior in order for it to exist. And, in order to assert superiority over other groups in a society that purports all people to be equal, white supremacy must be proactive - it must assert its supremacy against the grain, against the current, of social progress towards true equality.

In other words, white supremacy will not play nice with others; it will not peacefully co-exist. And it will see any equality sympathizers as traitors against their race. Heather Hayer was publicly called some despicable things ("n*****r-lover") by white supremacists. She was white - but as sympathizer with equality, she was an enemy, and both the actions of the man who killed her, and her death, were celebrated by white supremacists. Taking proactive action to assert white supremacy is what being a white supermacist is about, by their own admissions.

Again, white supremacy hurts white people, too.

So, if a movie has the audacity to challenge white supremacists tropes - like, the hero must be a white, or the bad guy must be a PoC - dismissing it as "racist" is suggesting that any other narrative but one that satisfies white supremacists' insecurities about their position in society is against all white people. See? It's racist against all white people, because it challenged white supremacy. Thus, white supremacy = whiteness = white supremacy.

If white people want to champion that they are not all racists, then they must be able to join the rest of us in challenging white supremacy without the knee-jerk defense of whiteness.

You make some valid point

I'm trying. And, hey, I appreciate your efforts and willingness to engage civilly.

In today's world, white supremacy is universally condemned,

There is some truth to this. Just, not enough.

except by the lunatic fringe

Fringe? Today, they don't hide under hoods, under cloak of darkness. Dylan Roof, the guy who kilked Heather Hayer, and others are acting in broad daylight. Neither are they clearly denounced by the White House; in fact, they've been coddled and cajoled and encouraged. And white supremacist groups have exponentially proliferated in today's new normalizing. In these respects, then, the pendulum has hardly swung to any equal opposite extreme - it has, in fact, further entrenched, so that KKK leaders can applaud the murder of a peaceful demonstrator in an open quote to the media. Fringe? I don't believe so.

If a certain race, religion, ideology, gender, etc., is saying something, would the same thing be acceptable coming from "the other side"?

No! Again, we must factor power, system and institution into this, and all those groups do not have equal power. The FBI documented an alarming rise in white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement. There is nothing equivalent for any of those other sides.

Besides, actions of one do not simply equate to others. The action of kissing your wife is fine, for you - but not your neighbour. You are in the ingroup, your neighbour is not. In society, as long as there are systemic, institutionalized groups, actions must be measured within that context.

False equivalence is a common, but fallacious, tactic. For the Chrishchun conservatives, this concept should not be difficult. There's an OT story of the Philistines returning the ark of the covenant to the Israelites. The Philistines touched the ark, no big deal. When the Israelites went out to retake possession, a guy from one of the tribes who were not supposed to touch it, touched it, and he dropped dead, which the Bible writer interpreted as his being struck down in judgment.

So, again, it's a lot to parse, but attempting to argue that, "if a white person can't do X, then a woman or a PoC shouldn't be able to do X either" isn't altogether true, since all the players are in a game rigged to create advantages and disadvantages amongst the players.

Consider the "right to bear arms". WHO enjoys that right? A group of white men can brandish semi auto rifles and have a casual conversation with cops; meanwhile, Philando Castille, calmly telling a cop he's got a licence to lawfully possess a gun, is shot to death, and a 12 year old child with a toy, in an open carry state, is shot to death.

These and so many other situations demonstrate clearly that rights are defended by power for those who fit their preference, and assaulted by power against those who don't.

but a lot of what is happening today exemplifies the pendulum swinging the other way

So, no, the pendulum has not swung to the other side, and society still disproportionately distributes power, access, centrality and privilege. Men still get paid more than women for doing the same job, if they even get considered for the job at all.

In this context, I submit for your consideration that these shows are not any kind of equivalent wrong against white men or white people that offsets truly racist content.

You made other comments I may address later, but this post is long enough for now.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@chilone said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Is there a difference between being white and being a white supremacist?

(I've written about this elsewhere - but rather than link to it, I'm chipping in to this real-time conversation, conversationally).

I believe - and want to believe - that the answer is "yes". My experiences support the notion that they are not the same.

However, too often, white people themselves demonstrate an inability to separate the two, such that, by their own beliefs, thoughts and actions, they, all too often, act as though they are the same.

Any time some institution, idea or symbol of white supremacy is challenged, too many (not all, but too many) white people get defensive about their whiteness - they, somehow, instinctively decide that a challenge to white supremacy is a challenge to their being white. Why is that?! I think it is because, unconsciously, they know that the institution or symbol of white supremacy has had an influence on how they see themselves in society (which was the entire point of the symbols and institutions in the first place).

The problem here is, in doing so, they themselves represent a frightful idea - that, indeed, inherent in being white in this society is a dependence upon the institutions and symbols of white supremacy; that, indeed, they are, essentially, one and the same.

And that, my friends, is a problem. Why?

It is a problem for both PoC and white people, because "supremacy" is relative. It is not happy being passively equal to others in society. "Supremacy" requires something that is relatively inferior in order for it to exist. And, in order to assert superiority over other groups in a society that purports all people to be equal, white supremacy must be proactive - it must assert its supremacy against the grain, against the current, of social progress towards true equality.

In other words, white supremacy will not play nice with others; it will not peacefully co-exist. And it will see any equality sympathizers as traitors against their race. Heather Hayer was publicly called some despicable things ("n*****r-lover") by white supremacists. She was white - but as sympathizer with equality, she was an enemy, and both the actions of the man who killed her, and her death, were celebrated by white supremacists. Taking proactive action to assert white supremacy is what being a white supermacist is about, by their own admissions.

Again, white supremacy hurts white people, too.

So, if a movie has the audacity to challenge white supremacists tropes - like, the hero must be a white, or the bad guy must be a PoC - dismissing it as "racist" is suggesting that any other narrative but one that satisfies white supremacists' insecurities about their position in society is against all white people. See? It's racist against all white people, because it challenged white supremacy. Thus, white supremacy = whiteness = white supremacy.

If white people want to champion that they are not all racists, then they must be able to join the rest of us in challenging white supremacy without the knee-jerk defense of whiteness.

You make some valid point

I'm trying. And, hey, I appreciate your efforts and willingness to engage civilly.

In today's world, white supremacy is universally condemned,

There is some truth to this. Just, not enough.

except by the lunatic fringe

Fringe? Today, they don't hide under hoods, under cloak of darkness. Dylan Roof, the guy who kilked Heather Hayer, and others are acting in broad daylight. Neither are they clearly denounced by the White House; in fact, they've been coddled and cajoled and encouraged. And white supremacist groups have exponentially proliferated in today's new normalizing. In these respects, then, the pendulum has hardly swung to any equal opposite extreme - it has, in fact, further entrenched, so that KKK leaders can applaud the murder of a peaceful demonstrator in an open quote to the media. Fringe? I don't believe so.

If a certain race, religion, ideology, gender, etc., is saying something, would the same thing be acceptable coming from "the other side"?

No! Again, we must factor power, system and institution into this, and all those groups do not have equal power. The FBI documented an alarming rise in white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement. There is nothing equivalent for any of those other sides.

Besides, actions of one do not simply equate to others. The action of kissing your wife is fine, for you - but not your neighbour. You are in the ingroup, your neighbour is not. In society, as long as there are systemic, institutionalized groups, actions must be measured within that context.

False equivalence is a common, but fallacious, tactic. For the Chrishchun conservatives, this concept should not be difficult. There's an OT story of the Philistines returning the ark of the covenant to the Israelites. The Philistines touched the ark, no big deal. When the Israelites went out to retake possession, a guy from one of the tribes who were not supposed to touch it, touched it, and he dropped dead, which the Bible writer interpreted as his being struck down in judgment.

So, again, it's a lot to parse, but attempting to argue that, "if a white person can't do X, then a woman or a PoC shouldn't be able to do X either" isn't altogether true, since all the players are in a game rigged to create advantages and disadvantages amongst the players.

Consider the "right to bear arms". WHO enjoys that right? A group of white men can brandish semi auto rifles and have a casual conversation with cops; meanwhile, Philando Castille, calmly telling a cop he's got a licence to lawfully possess a gun, is shot to death, and a 12 year old child with a toy, in an open carry state, is shot to death.

These and so many other situations demonstrate clearly that rights are defended by power for those who fit their preference, and assaulted by power against those who don't.

but a lot of what is happening today exemplifies the pendulum swinging the other way

So, no, the pendulum has not swung to the other side, and society still disproportionately distributes power, access, centrality and privilege. Men still get paid more than women for doing the same job, if they even get considered for the job at all.

In this context, I submit for your consideration that these shows are not any kind of equivalent wrong against white men or white people that offsets truly racist content.

You made other comments I may address later, but this post is long enough for now.

Youre full of shit. Pretending to be somewhere in the middle when your false libtard ideas based in propaganda and lies stem from totally fringe left racist ideologies. FOH.

@Altaire. said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@chilone said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Is there a difference between being white and being a white supremacist?

(I've written about this elsewhere - but rather than link to it, I'm chipping in to this real-time conversation, conversationally).

I believe - and want to believe - that the answer is "yes". My experiences support the notion that they are not the same.

However, too often, white people themselves demonstrate an inability to separate the two, such that, by their own beliefs, thoughts and actions, they, all too often, act as though they are the same.

Any time some institution, idea or symbol of white supremacy is challenged, too many (not all, but too many) white people get defensive about their whiteness - they, somehow, instinctively decide that a challenge to white supremacy is a challenge to their being white. Why is that?! I think it is because, unconsciously, they know that the institution or symbol of white supremacy has had an influence on how they see themselves in society (which was the entire point of the symbols and institutions in the first place).

The problem here is, in doing so, they themselves represent a frightful idea - that, indeed, inherent in being white in this society is a dependence upon the institutions and symbols of white supremacy; that, indeed, they are, essentially, one and the same.

And that, my friends, is a problem. Why?

It is a problem for both PoC and white people, because "supremacy" is relative. It is not happy being passively equal to others in society. "Supremacy" requires something that is relatively inferior in order for it to exist. And, in order to assert superiority over other groups in a society that purports all people to be equal, white supremacy must be proactive - it must assert its supremacy against the grain, against the current, of social progress towards true equality.

In other words, white supremacy will not play nice with others; it will not peacefully co-exist. And it will see any equality sympathizers as traitors against their race. Heather Hayer was publicly called some despicable things ("n*****r-lover") by white supremacists. She was white - but as sympathizer with equality, she was an enemy, and both the actions of the man who killed her, and her death, were celebrated by white supremacists. Taking proactive action to assert white supremacy is what being a white supermacist is about, by their own admissions.

Again, white supremacy hurts white people, too.

So, if a movie has the audacity to challenge white supremacists tropes - like, the hero must be a white, or the bad guy must be a PoC - dismissing it as "racist" is suggesting that any other narrative but one that satisfies white supremacists' insecurities about their position in society is against all white people. See? It's racist against all white people, because it challenged white supremacy. Thus, white supremacy = whiteness = white supremacy.

If white people want to champion that they are not all racists, then they must be able to join the rest of us in challenging white supremacy without the knee-jerk defense of whiteness.

You make some valid point

I'm trying. And, hey, I appreciate your efforts and willingness to engage civilly.

In today's world, white supremacy is universally condemned,

There is some truth to this. Just, not enough.

except by the lunatic fringe

Fringe? Today, they don't hide under hoods, under cloak of darkness. Dylan Roof, the guy who kilked Heather Hayer, and others are acting in broad daylight. Neither are they clearly denounced by the White House; in fact, they've been coddled and cajoled and encouraged. And white supremacist groups have exponentially proliferated in today's new normalizing. In these respects, then, the pendulum has hardly swung to any equal opposite extreme - it has, in fact, further entrenched, so that KKK leaders can applaud the murder of a peaceful demonstrator in an open quote to the media. Fringe? I don't believe so.

If a certain race, religion, ideology, gender, etc., is saying something, would the same thing be acceptable coming from "the other side"?

No! Again, we must factor power, system and institution into this, and all those groups do not have equal power. The FBI documented an alarming rise in white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement. There is nothing equivalent for any of those other sides.

Besides, actions of one do not simply equate to others. The action of kissing your wife is fine, for you - but not your neighbour. You are in the ingroup, your neighbour is not. In society, as long as there are systemic, institutionalized groups, actions must be measured within that context.

False equivalence is a common, but fallacious, tactic. For the Chrishchun conservatives, this concept should not be difficult. There's an OT story of the Philistines returning the ark of the covenant to the Israelites. The Philistines touched the ark, no big deal. When the Israelites went out to retake possession, a guy from one of the tribes who were not supposed to touch it, touched it, and he dropped dead, which the Bible writer interpreted as his being struck down in judgment.

So, again, it's a lot to parse, but attempting to argue that, "if a white person can't do X, then a woman or a PoC shouldn't be able to do X either" isn't altogether true, since all the players are in a game rigged to create advantages and disadvantages amongst the players.

Consider the "right to bear arms". WHO enjoys that right? A group of white men can brandish semi auto rifles and have a casual conversation with cops; meanwhile, Philando Castille, calmly telling a cop he's got a licence to lawfully possess a gun, is shot to death, and a 12 year old child with a toy, in an open carry state, is shot to death.

These and so many other situations demonstrate clearly that rights are defended by power for those who fit their preference, and assaulted by power against those who don't.

but a lot of what is happening today exemplifies the pendulum swinging the other way

So, no, the pendulum has not swung to the other side, and society still disproportionately distributes power, access, centrality and privilege. Men still get paid more than women for doing the same job, if they even get considered for the job at all.

In this context, I submit for your consideration that these shows are not any kind of equivalent wrong against white men or white people that offsets truly racist content.

You made other comments I may address later, but this post is long enough for now.

Youre full of shit. Pretending to be somewhere in the middle when your false libtard ideas based in propaganda and lies stem from totally fringe left racist ideologies. FOH.

Wow, didn't take long to get to the swearing and name-calling, heaven forbid you could stick to being civilized. Okay, rightwing nutjob snowflake, as you are so clearly unqualified and incapable of engaging this conversation constructively, and in over your head, you are dismissed.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@Altaire. said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@chilone said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Is there a difference between being white and being a white supremacist?

(I've written about this elsewhere - but rather than link to it, I'm chipping in to this real-time conversation, conversationally).

I believe - and want to believe - that the answer is "yes". My experiences support the notion that they are not the same.

However, too often, white people themselves demonstrate an inability to separate the two, such that, by their own beliefs, thoughts and actions, they, all too often, act as though they are the same.

Any time some institution, idea or symbol of white supremacy is challenged, too many (not all, but too many) white people get defensive about their whiteness - they, somehow, instinctively decide that a challenge to white supremacy is a challenge to their being white. Why is that?! I think it is because, unconsciously, they know that the institution or symbol of white supremacy has had an influence on how they see themselves in society (which was the entire point of the symbols and institutions in the first place).

The problem here is, in doing so, they themselves represent a frightful idea - that, indeed, inherent in being white in this society is a dependence upon the institutions and symbols of white supremacy; that, indeed, they are, essentially, one and the same.

And that, my friends, is a problem. Why?

It is a problem for both PoC and white people, because "supremacy" is relative. It is not happy being passively equal to others in society. "Supremacy" requires something that is relatively inferior in order for it to exist. And, in order to assert superiority over other groups in a society that purports all people to be equal, white supremacy must be proactive - it must assert its supremacy against the grain, against the current, of social progress towards true equality.

In other words, white supremacy will not play nice with others; it will not peacefully co-exist. And it will see any equality sympathizers as traitors against their race. Heather Hayer was publicly called some despicable things ("n*****r-lover") by white supremacists. She was white - but as sympathizer with equality, she was an enemy, and both the actions of the man who killed her, and her death, were celebrated by white supremacists. Taking proactive action to assert white supremacy is what being a white supermacist is about, by their own admissions.

Again, white supremacy hurts white people, too.

So, if a movie has the audacity to challenge white supremacists tropes - like, the hero must be a white, or the bad guy must be a PoC - dismissing it as "racist" is suggesting that any other narrative but one that satisfies white supremacists' insecurities about their position in society is against all white people. See? It's racist against all white people, because it challenged white supremacy. Thus, white supremacy = whiteness = white supremacy.

If white people want to champion that they are not all racists, then they must be able to join the rest of us in challenging white supremacy without the knee-jerk defense of whiteness.

You make some valid point

I'm trying. And, hey, I appreciate your efforts and willingness to engage civilly.

In today's world, white supremacy is universally condemned,

There is some truth to this. Just, not enough.

except by the lunatic fringe

Fringe? Today, they don't hide under hoods, under cloak of darkness. Dylan Roof, the guy who kilked Heather Hayer, and others are acting in broad daylight. Neither are they clearly denounced by the White House; in fact, they've been coddled and cajoled and encouraged. And white supremacist groups have exponentially proliferated in today's new normalizing. In these respects, then, the pendulum has hardly swung to any equal opposite extreme - it has, in fact, further entrenched, so that KKK leaders can applaud the murder of a peaceful demonstrator in an open quote to the media. Fringe? I don't believe so.

If a certain race, religion, ideology, gender, etc., is saying something, would the same thing be acceptable coming from "the other side"?

No! Again, we must factor power, system and institution into this, and all those groups do not have equal power. The FBI documented an alarming rise in white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement. There is nothing equivalent for any of those other sides.

Besides, actions of one do not simply equate to others. The action of kissing your wife is fine, for you - but not your neighbour. You are in the ingroup, your neighbour is not. In society, as long as there are systemic, institutionalized groups, actions must be measured within that context.

False equivalence is a common, but fallacious, tactic. For the Chrishchun conservatives, this concept should not be difficult. There's an OT story of the Philistines returning the ark of the covenant to the Israelites. The Philistines touched the ark, no big deal. When the Israelites went out to retake possession, a guy from one of the tribes who were not supposed to touch it, touched it, and he dropped dead, which the Bible writer interpreted as his being struck down in judgment.

So, again, it's a lot to parse, but attempting to argue that, "if a white person can't do X, then a woman or a PoC shouldn't be able to do X either" isn't altogether true, since all the players are in a game rigged to create advantages and disadvantages amongst the players.

Consider the "right to bear arms". WHO enjoys that right? A group of white men can brandish semi auto rifles and have a casual conversation with cops; meanwhile, Philando Castille, calmly telling a cop he's got a licence to lawfully possess a gun, is shot to death, and a 12 year old child with a toy, in an open carry state, is shot to death.

These and so many other situations demonstrate clearly that rights are defended by power for those who fit their preference, and assaulted by power against those who don't.

but a lot of what is happening today exemplifies the pendulum swinging the other way

So, no, the pendulum has not swung to the other side, and society still disproportionately distributes power, access, centrality and privilege. Men still get paid more than women for doing the same job, if they even get considered for the job at all.

In this context, I submit for your consideration that these shows are not any kind of equivalent wrong against white men or white people that offsets truly racist content.

You made other comments I may address later, but this post is long enough for now.

Youre full of shit. Pretending to be somewhere in the middle when your false libtard ideas based in propaganda and lies stem from totally fringe left racist ideologies. FOH.

Wow, didn't take long to get to the swearing and name-calling, heaven forbid you could stick to being civilized. Okay, rightwing nutjob snowflake, as you are so clearly unqualified and incapable of engaging this conversation constructively, and in over your head, you are dismissed.

yeah, this one's not worth it. Don't waste your time, DRDMovieMusings.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@Altaire. said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@chilone said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Is there a difference between being white and being a white supremacist?

(I've written about this elsewhere - but rather than link to it, I'm chipping in to this real-time conversation, conversationally).

I believe - and want to believe - that the answer is "yes". My experiences support the notion that they are not the same.

However, too often, white people themselves demonstrate an inability to separate the two, such that, by their own beliefs, thoughts and actions, they, all too often, act as though they are the same.

Any time some institution, idea or symbol of white supremacy is challenged, too many (not all, but too many) white people get defensive about their whiteness - they, somehow, instinctively decide that a challenge to white supremacy is a challenge to their being white. Why is that?! I think it is because, unconsciously, they know that the institution or symbol of white supremacy has had an influence on how they see themselves in society (which was the entire point of the symbols and institutions in the first place).

The problem here is, in doing so, they themselves represent a frightful idea - that, indeed, inherent in being white in this society is a dependence upon the institutions and symbols of white supremacy; that, indeed, they are, essentially, one and the same.

And that, my friends, is a problem. Why?

It is a problem for both PoC and white people, because "supremacy" is relative. It is not happy being passively equal to others in society. "Supremacy" requires something that is relatively inferior in order for it to exist. And, in order to assert superiority over other groups in a society that purports all people to be equal, white supremacy must be proactive - it must assert its supremacy against the grain, against the current, of social progress towards true equality.

In other words, white supremacy will not play nice with others; it will not peacefully co-exist. And it will see any equality sympathizers as traitors against their race. Heather Hayer was publicly called some despicable things ("n*****r-lover") by white supremacists. She was white - but as sympathizer with equality, she was an enemy, and both the actions of the man who killed her, and her death, were celebrated by white supremacists. Taking proactive action to assert white supremacy is what being a white supermacist is about, by their own admissions.

Again, white supremacy hurts white people, too.

So, if a movie has the audacity to challenge white supremacists tropes - like, the hero must be a white, or the bad guy must be a PoC - dismissing it as "racist" is suggesting that any other narrative but one that satisfies white supremacists' insecurities about their position in society is against all white people. See? It's racist against all white people, because it challenged white supremacy. Thus, white supremacy = whiteness = white supremacy.

If white people want to champion that they are not all racists, then they must be able to join the rest of us in challenging white supremacy without the knee-jerk defense of whiteness.

You make some valid point

I'm trying. And, hey, I appreciate your efforts and willingness to engage civilly.

In today's world, white supremacy is universally condemned,

There is some truth to this. Just, not enough.

except by the lunatic fringe

Fringe? Today, they don't hide under hoods, under cloak of darkness. Dylan Roof, the guy who kilked Heather Hayer, and others are acting in broad daylight. Neither are they clearly denounced by the White House; in fact, they've been coddled and cajoled and encouraged. And white supremacist groups have exponentially proliferated in today's new normalizing. In these respects, then, the pendulum has hardly swung to any equal opposite extreme - it has, in fact, further entrenched, so that KKK leaders can applaud the murder of a peaceful demonstrator in an open quote to the media. Fringe? I don't believe so.

If a certain race, religion, ideology, gender, etc., is saying something, would the same thing be acceptable coming from "the other side"?

No! Again, we must factor power, system and institution into this, and all those groups do not have equal power. The FBI documented an alarming rise in white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement. There is nothing equivalent for any of those other sides.

Besides, actions of one do not simply equate to others. The action of kissing your wife is fine, for you - but not your neighbour. You are in the ingroup, your neighbour is not. In society, as long as there are systemic, institutionalized groups, actions must be measured within that context.

False equivalence is a common, but fallacious, tactic. For the Chrishchun conservatives, this concept should not be difficult. There's an OT story of the Philistines returning the ark of the covenant to the Israelites. The Philistines touched the ark, no big deal. When the Israelites went out to retake possession, a guy from one of the tribes who were not supposed to touch it, touched it, and he dropped dead, which the Bible writer interpreted as his being struck down in judgment.

So, again, it's a lot to parse, but attempting to argue that, "if a white person can't do X, then a woman or a PoC shouldn't be able to do X either" isn't altogether true, since all the players are in a game rigged to create advantages and disadvantages amongst the players.

Consider the "right to bear arms". WHO enjoys that right? A group of white men can brandish semi auto rifles and have a casual conversation with cops; meanwhile, Philando Castille, calmly telling a cop he's got a licence to lawfully possess a gun, is shot to death, and a 12 year old child with a toy, in an open carry state, is shot to death.

These and so many other situations demonstrate clearly that rights are defended by power for those who fit their preference, and assaulted by power against those who don't.

but a lot of what is happening today exemplifies the pendulum swinging the other way

So, no, the pendulum has not swung to the other side, and society still disproportionately distributes power, access, centrality and privilege. Men still get paid more than women for doing the same job, if they even get considered for the job at all.

In this context, I submit for your consideration that these shows are not any kind of equivalent wrong against white men or white people that offsets truly racist content.

You made other comments I may address later, but this post is long enough for now.

Youre full of shit. Pretending to be somewhere in the middle when your false libtard ideas based in propaganda and lies stem from totally fringe left racist ideologies. FOH.

Wow, didn't take long to get to the swearing and name-calling, heaven forbid you could stick to being civilized. Okay, rightwing nutjob snowflake, as you are so clearly unqualified and incapable of engaging this conversation constructively, and in over your head, you are dismissed.

typical liberal pu$$y. Rage quit from life too so the real men can be rid of you crying ass cowards.