Discuss Star Wars: The Last Jedi
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Absolutely disgraceful what they did to Luke's character
posted by sati_84STAFFMOD on January 11, 2018 at 8:53 AM
(Warning: wall of text rant incoming!)
First of all, I hate the "Mentor must die" trope. I find the basic idea of someone who is over 60 is "useless for the plot" therefore must die, really disturbing.
I mean a dying moment for a beloved character is always painful, and I'm not entirely against a well crafted death scene. Han Solo's death in TFA did have some meaning as Kylo Ren was hesitating and was in turmoil before making the decision. The circumstances added some thematic meaning to his death. I did not like the scene itself, I think it was poorly filmed and not very well acted, but I understood what the point of the filmmaker was. It was poorly executed (pun not intended) but I got the point.
But man... what is this? Yes, Luke is well over 60 in this movie, but he is still the most powerful Force user in the galaxy at this moment (I believe he is a notch above Snoke, even), and this is what they do with him?
I don't have a problem with the idea that Luke is not perfect and had a moment where he thought he can protect the galaxy by killing Kylo. On a very basic level, this conflict inside Luke, inside Kylo Ren and the conflict between the two characters is interesting. The idea is interesting for such a conflict to occur... but the movie takes this idea and absolutely botches it. I even liked the idea of the different interpretations (Luke having crazy, rage-filled eyes when Kylo is telling the story was a nice touch) of the event. These scenes however are still badly done, and the mere fact that the breaking point of Kylo hung on this singular event is a bit of a stretch - especially that we don't know what went down between him and Snoke prior to that.
Also, a sidenote: his moment of weakness was caused by his determination to keep the people and the galaxy safe from the Dark Side, right? He wants to defend what was achieved at the end of ROTJ, which is comletely understandable. But after he survived the attack on the Jedi Academy... he is just giving up? I mean Kylo is joining forces with Snoke, creating / strengthening the First Order, killing millions if not billions in the galaxy... and Luke is suddenly OK with this? I mean does he seriously think that he would make the situation worse somehow if he tried to fight back / join the Resistance / help and protect Leia / go on a suicide mission to duel with Snoke & Kylo / or... DO ANYTHING? It's horrifyingly out of character for him to do nothing! Also, it's too similar to Yoda's solution in ESB (in EP III actually). I mean for a series that prides itself on being different from the OT, it still has similar elements when it's convenient for the writers... because of course.
I can imagine Luke being in despair for maybe a few weeks, but I think he would have snapped out of it, seeing that Leia and Han are in immediate danger as long as the First Order exists, and they (and again, of course all the other people in the galaxy) were the reason for even founding his Jedi Academy. He would not suddenly stop fighting.
And then he has his death scene preceded by some cool projection tricks. The scene on the Crystal Fox planet was great, and I understand the physical reasons why Luke died, however it was not the death that Luke would have deserved. Buying a couple of minutes for the Resistance to get away... is not a legendary act fitting his character (also, it's similar to how Obi-Wan dies in ANH, but of course it's not a problem here because of... reasons). Also, Yoda asked him to teach Rey a lesson, and... he kind of didn't. I mean Rey did not even witness the event first hand, and buying time to aid a getaway is not exactly a Jedi-exclusive thing to do... Maybe Force Projection as a skill will be useful for Rey, but Luke did not actually teach her how to do it... So I believe Yoda will be an angry Force Ghost in IX!
The character interpretation should be that he embraced the legend he has become... which thematically kind of makes sense, but from a plot standpoint he must know that he is actually the most powerful Force user, and his skills would be tremendously useful... you know, in an actual battle with the First Order. He is vastly more useful to the Resistance living than dead, but this is just such a no-brainer, I feel I'm insulting whoever is reading this just by mentioning this fact. Especially now, that Luke is aware of a really-really strong other Force user he could join forces with and guide her (learning from his past mistakes ofc). Him dying this way is just not a logical action, and this is where the writing room rears its ugly head: we know he only dies because the writers decided that they are going to use the trope I mentioned at the very beginning of my post.
In fact, the new trilogy is a story about new and young characters, so out with the old, in with the new! Literally, as in Han, Luke and Leia must die. I would rather see them helping the new characters, instruct them, guide them and maybe die but in more meaningful ways. Of course the fact that what I want doesn't happen in the movie is not a valid criticism, and I don't mean it like that, just wanted to mention it.
So actually in TFA, Han Solo was utilized OK, but TLJ just cannot fit Luke into the story that it's trying to tell. This is a story about Kylo and Rey fundamentally, and I find their characters and their storyline interesting. Luke doesn't fit in there, so he must die. They don't even try to do something interesting or meaningful with Luke. He doesn't really teach Rey ('in that case it would be too similar to ESB, hurr-durr' - well, it all depends on the execution, you know), doesn't really fight for the Resistance, doesn't really have any significant part in all that is going down... and that irritates me and I find it disrespectful.
Thoughts?
(inb4 anyone brings it up: I did not like Obi-Wan dying in ANH either, his death was also kind of pointless, but the rest of the movie made up for it. The rest of TLJ did not make up for the above, hence my rant)
Reply by Daddie0
on February 7, 2018 at 1:09 PM
Thank you for giving a reasoned response to this thread-run-amok. :)
I still say, even with your very generous (and perhaps accurate) interpretation, some of the ways they abused and disused Luke's character was quite a tone-deaf betrayal for folks who started this whole journey with the original Trilogy. I'm thinking specifically of the spear-fishing/milk-drinking garbage, not to mention the melancholy. In The Last Jedi, we encounter a forgotten Luke, who has learned nothing given all his years of being a Jedi Master. It's hard to explain, but I expected him to be much more like a Ben Kenobi or Yoda (or more). And they obviously knew this with their teaser at the end of The Force Awakens.
Reply by Glenn Medeiros
on February 7, 2018 at 3:08 PM
First of all I got to say nothing's gonna change my love for star wars last jedi but you so wrong it quite funny. Luke no saving anyone and no fighting anyone either - he no even there!
Actually Rey who save them all by moving all big stones and sparkle dogs help too by showing way... nothing to do with Luke who no even there! It way crazy!!
Reply by movie_nazi
on February 7, 2018 at 3:34 PM
You love TLJ? Um-kay, added to ignore list. There is nothing constructive you could possibly add to any conversation about movies if you actually LOVE that tripe. You couldn't see a plot hole if you fell into it.
Reply by Russ007
on February 7, 2018 at 3:44 PM
I didn't care much for the spear-fishing either tbh. Reminded me of LOTR or HP.
Reply by Glenn Medeiros
on February 7, 2018 at 5:32 PM
Last jedi was great fun very funny and loads of great action! I is sad so many negative like "boo hoo, me no like Luke Skywalker in last jedi". COME ON! it's meant to be fun times film no gaze at belly.
And movie nazi you go on enjoying your constructive conversations with people who have exact same view as you. Most constructive sure ha ha
even my brother Bobby laugh when I show him what you say and he no even so clever! I sorry Bobby!!
Reply by mcse2000ca
on February 7, 2018 at 5:55 PM
when was it fun again?
Reply by Glenn Medeiros
on February 7, 2018 at 6:32 PM
You gotta be kidding me no? It funny so LOADS of times I Glenn go see it again to laugh. Off my head I remembering -
Poe makes call fool of Captain Hux.
Then Finn falling about in his water suit!
Luke drinking horrible milk YUCK!!
The space ship steam iron.
Naughty boy Finn keeps getting electric shock
Cheeky Poe keeps getting a slap from the ladies - naughty boy too Poe ha ha!
BB8 was firing monies like a gun and it smoke.
Luke brushes dust off his shoulder but he no even there!!
The funny man who stuttering all the time.
I is sure loads more but that a lot from head. I cannot wait for dvd so we can see again. Just no leave Bobby to watch on his on this time.
Reply by Glenn Medeiros
on February 7, 2018 at 6:40 PM
I just remember other funny time when chrewbacca want to eat porg and they looking at him with the big sad eyes
So funny last jedi!
Reply by mcse2000ca
on February 7, 2018 at 9:23 PM
Ya I guess it would be funny if I was 8
Reply by komrad
on February 7, 2018 at 10:20 PM
Don't you see his writing style and poor grammar? He very likely is 8. LOL.
Reply by Midi-chlorian_Count
on February 8, 2018 at 4:00 AM
Sorry dude but most of these weren't even intentionally funny! In fact combine them with the lack of plots actually going anywhere and the abject failure of this film - the supposed centre part of a trilogy - to follow the story on from the previous "episode" (!) - and you pretty much have the basis of why it was so heavily hated...
Reply by sati_84
on February 8, 2018 at 8:01 AM
What you are saying would make sense if my original sentence was to be taken metaphorically. Let's go back to that:
He wants to defend what was achieved at the end of ROTJ, which is comletely understandable. But after he survived the attack on the Jedi Academy... he is just giving up?
By saying "what was achieved at the end of ROTJ" I did not mean "peace in the galaxy" or any other metaphorical stuff like that. I was talking about people, who Luke actually saved by defeating the Emperor. Two people in particular, Leia & Han of course.
So even though "evil is everywhere", in my eyes, Luke is a character who would not stand the situation for a second that Leia & Han are in danger. He would help them any way he could. And of course other people / The Resistance in general as well. Even if he is disillusioned or sees the overall situation as an endless fight, he would only be disillusioned in some ideas and would be much more cynical than in ROTJ - but he cannot be disillusioned in the immediate situation concerning people who are alive right now and only (I repeat only) because he defeated the Emperor.
My statement has to be taken literally. What was achieved at the end of ROTJ, was that his family (Leia) and his friends (Han, Chewie, Lando, C3-PO, R2-D2) are alive / functional. Anybody threatening their lives? You can bet Luke is there in 2 seconds to intervene - no matter what. Because this is not an idea or an illusion. These are flesh and blood people (bar the robots of course), who mean everything to him. I just find it utterly out of character that he does nothing whilst being fully aware of the fact that the First Order is rising and Leia is fighting a war against them. It just makes no sense.
What was even more disrespectful was the handling of the moment when Rey broke the news to him about Han. It's like Rian Johnson was not even aware of how extremely tight these two characters have been in the previous movies. Luke is just like: "Oh, that sucks..." and gets over Han's death in 2 seconds. Even if I accept the idea that Ben Solo's betrayal was the defining and initial moment of his seclusion, the very fact that it was Ben who killed Han should absolutely crush him. But we get nothing like that. He is just unfazed, even by a piece of news like that. Again, utterly out of character.
Reply by mcse2000ca
on February 8, 2018 at 8:22 AM
This is exactly the reason alot of people are so pissed this was not Luke Skywalker we seen this was a very bad joke and nobody is laughing other than Disney to the bank.
Reply by Don Jon
on February 9, 2018 at 1:06 AM
i hate it how Disney is ultimately blamed.
Reply by mcse2000ca
on February 9, 2018 at 6:17 AM
Why they bought it and they Disneyfied it so why would it not ultimately be Disneys fault