Discuss Star Wars: The Last Jedi
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Absolutely disgraceful what they did to Luke's character
posted by sati_84STAFFMOD on January 11, 2018 at 8:53 AM
(Warning: wall of text rant incoming!)
First of all, I hate the "Mentor must die" trope. I find the basic idea of someone who is over 60 is "useless for the plot" therefore must die, really disturbing.
I mean a dying moment for a beloved character is always painful, and I'm not entirely against a well crafted death scene. Han Solo's death in TFA did have some meaning as Kylo Ren was hesitating and was in turmoil before making the decision. The circumstances added some thematic meaning to his death. I did not like the scene itself, I think it was poorly filmed and not very well acted, but I understood what the point of the filmmaker was. It was poorly executed (pun not intended) but I got the point.
But man... what is this? Yes, Luke is well over 60 in this movie, but he is still the most powerful Force user in the galaxy at this moment (I believe he is a notch above Snoke, even), and this is what they do with him?
I don't have a problem with the idea that Luke is not perfect and had a moment where he thought he can protect the galaxy by killing Kylo. On a very basic level, this conflict inside Luke, inside Kylo Ren and the conflict between the two characters is interesting. The idea is interesting for such a conflict to occur... but the movie takes this idea and absolutely botches it. I even liked the idea of the different interpretations (Luke having crazy, rage-filled eyes when Kylo is telling the story was a nice touch) of the event. These scenes however are still badly done, and the mere fact that the breaking point of Kylo hung on this singular event is a bit of a stretch - especially that we don't know what went down between him and Snoke prior to that.
Also, a sidenote: his moment of weakness was caused by his determination to keep the people and the galaxy safe from the Dark Side, right? He wants to defend what was achieved at the end of ROTJ, which is comletely understandable. But after he survived the attack on the Jedi Academy... he is just giving up? I mean Kylo is joining forces with Snoke, creating / strengthening the First Order, killing millions if not billions in the galaxy... and Luke is suddenly OK with this? I mean does he seriously think that he would make the situation worse somehow if he tried to fight back / join the Resistance / help and protect Leia / go on a suicide mission to duel with Snoke & Kylo / or... DO ANYTHING? It's horrifyingly out of character for him to do nothing! Also, it's too similar to Yoda's solution in ESB (in EP III actually). I mean for a series that prides itself on being different from the OT, it still has similar elements when it's convenient for the writers... because of course.
I can imagine Luke being in despair for maybe a few weeks, but I think he would have snapped out of it, seeing that Leia and Han are in immediate danger as long as the First Order exists, and they (and again, of course all the other people in the galaxy) were the reason for even founding his Jedi Academy. He would not suddenly stop fighting.
And then he has his death scene preceded by some cool projection tricks. The scene on the Crystal Fox planet was great, and I understand the physical reasons why Luke died, however it was not the death that Luke would have deserved. Buying a couple of minutes for the Resistance to get away... is not a legendary act fitting his character (also, it's similar to how Obi-Wan dies in ANH, but of course it's not a problem here because of... reasons). Also, Yoda asked him to teach Rey a lesson, and... he kind of didn't. I mean Rey did not even witness the event first hand, and buying time to aid a getaway is not exactly a Jedi-exclusive thing to do... Maybe Force Projection as a skill will be useful for Rey, but Luke did not actually teach her how to do it... So I believe Yoda will be an angry Force Ghost in IX!
The character interpretation should be that he embraced the legend he has become... which thematically kind of makes sense, but from a plot standpoint he must know that he is actually the most powerful Force user, and his skills would be tremendously useful... you know, in an actual battle with the First Order. He is vastly more useful to the Resistance living than dead, but this is just such a no-brainer, I feel I'm insulting whoever is reading this just by mentioning this fact. Especially now, that Luke is aware of a really-really strong other Force user he could join forces with and guide her (learning from his past mistakes ofc). Him dying this way is just not a logical action, and this is where the writing room rears its ugly head: we know he only dies because the writers decided that they are going to use the trope I mentioned at the very beginning of my post.
In fact, the new trilogy is a story about new and young characters, so out with the old, in with the new! Literally, as in Han, Luke and Leia must die. I would rather see them helping the new characters, instruct them, guide them and maybe die but in more meaningful ways. Of course the fact that what I want doesn't happen in the movie is not a valid criticism, and I don't mean it like that, just wanted to mention it.
So actually in TFA, Han Solo was utilized OK, but TLJ just cannot fit Luke into the story that it's trying to tell. This is a story about Kylo and Rey fundamentally, and I find their characters and their storyline interesting. Luke doesn't fit in there, so he must die. They don't even try to do something interesting or meaningful with Luke. He doesn't really teach Rey ('in that case it would be too similar to ESB, hurr-durr' - well, it all depends on the execution, you know), doesn't really fight for the Resistance, doesn't really have any significant part in all that is going down... and that irritates me and I find it disrespectful.
Thoughts?
(inb4 anyone brings it up: I did not like Obi-Wan dying in ANH either, his death was also kind of pointless, but the rest of the movie made up for it. The rest of TLJ did not make up for the above, hence my rant)
Reply by Don Jon
on January 20, 2018 at 1:30 AM
its like i read or saw somewhere, theyre trying to make us let go of the past...
Reply by Renovatio
on January 20, 2018 at 3:06 AM
On Luke... How old are you guys?
If we recognise that Luke is to some extent like a human being and not just a symbolic deity, than how his character has developed in The Last Jedi "works" whether it makes you feel good about your childhood idol or not...
In fact, he basically sacrifices himself for the resistence after having been disaslusioned with the jedi way... Kind of a fitting end... Arguably the ultimate sacrifice...
Personally, i think it was a cop-out... I thik they should have gone all out and have him stay a bitter misanthrope on his island and have the resistence find their own way out of their situation... i.e. Rey recognises that Luke was irrelevanf and that she was on a fool's errend trying to get him to rise to the occasion... That would have been controversial, thought provoking and interesting... it would make us contemplate our complacency in waiting for saviours rsther than taking matters into our own hands by working together... I can only imagine the outrage at that scenario!
Reply by HAL 9010'
on January 20, 2018 at 4:22 AM
Obi is old when they meet he is near his end anyway.
Vader is like 20 or more years younger than Obi, he is the chosen one, has unseen high midichlorian counts and possibly born by the force itself, and he is known to be the baddest mofo in the galaxy. Equal, no. No way.
It inflates the whole story of Anakin if Obi was his equal. Makes no sense. Of course if you only mean in their last “fight”, then you are not wrong . But none of them seem to go all in in ANH and it lasted what? Two minutes before Obi became a ghost?... had they gone all in, Obi would have had his arse handed to him.
Reply by Midi-chlorian_Count
on January 20, 2018 at 4:39 AM
I've seen these kind of questions put forward before to prop up a defence of the storyline. The problem, as far as I'm concerned, is the fact that they already used this with Han in TFA - reset from the hero who got the princess at the end of ROTJ, to basically a pre-ANH bum divorcee version who we're told was a terrible father and would have "disappointed" us.
So basically they cut down two of the OT heroes in consecutive films but why, what was the actual purpose? Well, it was for the exact same purpose, as both films clumsily tried to use the OT characters as justifying Kylo Ren's fall to the dark side! I'm sure had Carrie Fisher survived we'd also have been very disappointed at how she'd let Ben down as well come Episode IX...
Reply by Renovatio
on January 20, 2018 at 5:17 AM
As Hegel said, history repeats himself... And as Marx added, first as tragedy, then as farce 😉
I bet you guys were waiting for someone to quote those two in relation to this movie 😂 ... Star Wars has been remixed and repeated for a while now... How else are they going to resell the same toys?! 😎
Anyway, i didn't ask those questions in defense of the storyline, which is shitty, but rather in defense of the characterisation of Luke... It's a valid choice, not only does it reflect the reality of getting old and bigger-than-life-idols, but also because it adds an interesting dimension to the character...
Sure, they could have gone another way.. maybe it would have been better, maybe not... but i think it's a bit hysterical to describe Luke's portrayal as "disgraceful".... In a way, it's as if the audience over-identifyed with Rey and how upset she was at Luke's rejection... 😁
You're meant to feel dissapointed by discovering that Santa Clause isn't real, that you parents aren't perfect and that God might not exist... Dealing with that dissapointment is part of growing up... I hope the anger phase is over with as the fans got ovet their denial quickly... That leaves bargaining, depression and finally acceptence, which I think will come by the next movie... Kubler-Ross style 😉
Reply by Midi-chlorian_Count
on January 20, 2018 at 6:03 AM
In itself yeah maybe - but like I just said we've already just had that with Han. Maybe you just need to reach Hegel / Marx quoting, non Santa believing levels of super-smartz to just ignore the fact you're watching the same thing in consecutive films...
Anyway, rather than being dismissive, I find it very interesting to see the reasons why people's views on Star Wars are skewed based upon age / interpretations of previous films. Was just the same with the prequels.
I guess for older generations it would almost be like if they made a Robin Hood film were he was an old man, who'd fallen into cahoots with the Sheriff of Nottingham, and had no interesting in helping young Jane Hood in her battle against Friar Tuck Jnr, who'd been a former member of the band of merry men 😉
Reply by mcse2000ca
on January 20, 2018 at 7:49 AM
Nope Disneys gotten enough out of us we are done with there crap!
Reply by movie_nazi
on January 20, 2018 at 9:45 AM
But it makes no sense. Either Anakin is super special Jesus Christ with super special force powers or he is just simply talented like all of the other force sensitive people who some choose to become Jedi like Obi-Wan. Can't have it both ways. Either they are even in power or Anakin was superior in power and was only defeated by Obi-Wan because he let his hatred cloud his judgment.
Reply by tmdb23329739
on January 20, 2018 at 11:19 AM
Kenobi had the high ground lol. Anakin might have been special but his powers were no match to a hill! :D
Reply by HarrySkywalker
on January 20, 2018 at 6:59 PM
No. Both Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi were pretty equal in that fight.
You are using plot elements from the prequels and Darth Vader's backstory which are pretty irrelevant because at the time they made Star Wars nothing of that did even exist.
Reply by HarrySkywalker
on January 20, 2018 at 7:01 PM
It makes sense because Obi-Wan Kenobi was his master, he knew his weaknesses, he was way more skilled and was very powerful by his own.
Anakin just went to madness while Obi-Wan pulled out a very wise fight.
Reply by Daddie0
on January 20, 2018 at 9:42 PM
I just wanted to add to this conversation that the biggest irony to our heroes being cut down (with the exception perhaps of Mark Hamill) is that both Alec Guinness and Harrison Ford wanted their characters killed off so they would not have to do Star Wars again. It seems we want our heroes more than others want to be our heroes!
As to Rian Johnson's/TLJ's treatment of Luke: abysmal.
Reply by HAL 9010'
on January 21, 2018 at 3:19 AM
Of course I do. This is after all where their stories are told. And sure in ANH their less than 2 minute fight seem pretty equal as I write above - despite Vader mentioning Obi had grown weak..... But in general no, no not at all. Vader is the baddest mofo in the galaxy at that time. Zero doubt about it. As the saga teaches us; he is the chosen one, has the highest midichlorian counts ever and possibly born by the force itself etc etc. If you disagree with that, we must be talking about two different stories ;)
Reply by Renovatio
on January 21, 2018 at 4:14 AM
Rey will end up stronger... In her next StarWars movie she'lll collapse a deathstar onto itself by mere force/thought... This idea has been floating around for weeks...
P.S. I have been doing the floating 😉
Reply by Renovatio
on January 21, 2018 at 6:35 AM
haha... you do have a point, but i don't really remember the specifics of past films, or even remember them as defined movies... they all blend into one another, in a soap-opera-like haze... I think that's the problem i have with serialised movies... it's the same with the superhero movies series, the transformers movies series and the fast and furious ones...
every long running show risks "jumping the shark" at some point... maybe this is that point for Star Wars?