Discuss Star Wars: The Last Jedi
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Absolutely disgraceful what they did to Luke's character
posted by sati_84STAFFMOD on January 11, 2018 at 8:53 AM
(Warning: wall of text rant incoming!)
First of all, I hate the "Mentor must die" trope. I find the basic idea of someone who is over 60 is "useless for the plot" therefore must die, really disturbing.
I mean a dying moment for a beloved character is always painful, and I'm not entirely against a well crafted death scene. Han Solo's death in TFA did have some meaning as Kylo Ren was hesitating and was in turmoil before making the decision. The circumstances added some thematic meaning to his death. I did not like the scene itself, I think it was poorly filmed and not very well acted, but I understood what the point of the filmmaker was. It was poorly executed (pun not intended) but I got the point.
But man... what is this? Yes, Luke is well over 60 in this movie, but he is still the most powerful Force user in the galaxy at this moment (I believe he is a notch above Snoke, even), and this is what they do with him?
I don't have a problem with the idea that Luke is not perfect and had a moment where he thought he can protect the galaxy by killing Kylo. On a very basic level, this conflict inside Luke, inside Kylo Ren and the conflict between the two characters is interesting. The idea is interesting for such a conflict to occur... but the movie takes this idea and absolutely botches it. I even liked the idea of the different interpretations (Luke having crazy, rage-filled eyes when Kylo is telling the story was a nice touch) of the event. These scenes however are still badly done, and the mere fact that the breaking point of Kylo hung on this singular event is a bit of a stretch - especially that we don't know what went down between him and Snoke prior to that.
Also, a sidenote: his moment of weakness was caused by his determination to keep the people and the galaxy safe from the Dark Side, right? He wants to defend what was achieved at the end of ROTJ, which is comletely understandable. But after he survived the attack on the Jedi Academy... he is just giving up? I mean Kylo is joining forces with Snoke, creating / strengthening the First Order, killing millions if not billions in the galaxy... and Luke is suddenly OK with this? I mean does he seriously think that he would make the situation worse somehow if he tried to fight back / join the Resistance / help and protect Leia / go on a suicide mission to duel with Snoke & Kylo / or... DO ANYTHING? It's horrifyingly out of character for him to do nothing! Also, it's too similar to Yoda's solution in ESB (in EP III actually). I mean for a series that prides itself on being different from the OT, it still has similar elements when it's convenient for the writers... because of course.
I can imagine Luke being in despair for maybe a few weeks, but I think he would have snapped out of it, seeing that Leia and Han are in immediate danger as long as the First Order exists, and they (and again, of course all the other people in the galaxy) were the reason for even founding his Jedi Academy. He would not suddenly stop fighting.
And then he has his death scene preceded by some cool projection tricks. The scene on the Crystal Fox planet was great, and I understand the physical reasons why Luke died, however it was not the death that Luke would have deserved. Buying a couple of minutes for the Resistance to get away... is not a legendary act fitting his character (also, it's similar to how Obi-Wan dies in ANH, but of course it's not a problem here because of... reasons). Also, Yoda asked him to teach Rey a lesson, and... he kind of didn't. I mean Rey did not even witness the event first hand, and buying time to aid a getaway is not exactly a Jedi-exclusive thing to do... Maybe Force Projection as a skill will be useful for Rey, but Luke did not actually teach her how to do it... So I believe Yoda will be an angry Force Ghost in IX!
The character interpretation should be that he embraced the legend he has become... which thematically kind of makes sense, but from a plot standpoint he must know that he is actually the most powerful Force user, and his skills would be tremendously useful... you know, in an actual battle with the First Order. He is vastly more useful to the Resistance living than dead, but this is just such a no-brainer, I feel I'm insulting whoever is reading this just by mentioning this fact. Especially now, that Luke is aware of a really-really strong other Force user he could join forces with and guide her (learning from his past mistakes ofc). Him dying this way is just not a logical action, and this is where the writing room rears its ugly head: we know he only dies because the writers decided that they are going to use the trope I mentioned at the very beginning of my post.
In fact, the new trilogy is a story about new and young characters, so out with the old, in with the new! Literally, as in Han, Luke and Leia must die. I would rather see them helping the new characters, instruct them, guide them and maybe die but in more meaningful ways. Of course the fact that what I want doesn't happen in the movie is not a valid criticism, and I don't mean it like that, just wanted to mention it.
So actually in TFA, Han Solo was utilized OK, but TLJ just cannot fit Luke into the story that it's trying to tell. This is a story about Kylo and Rey fundamentally, and I find their characters and their storyline interesting. Luke doesn't fit in there, so he must die. They don't even try to do something interesting or meaningful with Luke. He doesn't really teach Rey ('in that case it would be too similar to ESB, hurr-durr' - well, it all depends on the execution, you know), doesn't really fight for the Resistance, doesn't really have any significant part in all that is going down... and that irritates me and I find it disrespectful.
Thoughts?
(inb4 anyone brings it up: I did not like Obi-Wan dying in ANH either, his death was also kind of pointless, but the rest of the movie made up for it. The rest of TLJ did not make up for the above, hence my rant)
Reply by sati_84
on February 13, 2018 at 3:18 AM
I won't see Ep IX in the theaters, I decided that - I refuse to support this New Trilogy that was involved in this disgraceful character assassination. However, I'm interested in the Solo movie. Generally, I think the side movies deserve a chance. I did not like Rogue One, but I liked that it tried to experiment with different tones. And the Solo trailer at least seems intriguing. Maybe Disney will have a fluke and actually produces a well made Star Wars movie...
Reply by movie_nazi
on February 13, 2018 at 8:37 AM
You know, Rogue One I will say was OK. It wasn't godawful but it wasn't fun. It was all razzle with no dazzle. It gave you familiar Star Wars stuff and lots of fan service eye candy that seemed shoehorned in there more than anything. But the story was BORING. Character development was zilch and the plot had a lot of holes in it. The only interesting character was the droid. I am just so livid with how they have destroyed the SW legacy and I am more upset at Lucas for selling it than I am at Disney. I was (and am ) firmly in the camp that the prequels were not nearly as bad as people made them out to be. YES, they had horrible dialogue and the character development was a bit lacking as well but at least the stories expanded on the universe and at least the three films were written COHESIVELY which to me is the question everybody should be asking about the new films but are not. That question is How in the name of the gods would they not write a story that spans all three films instead of this each director writes his own story per film nonsense? Does it really take a genius to see that would be the smart thing to do? Luca did not plan out Empire and Jedi before ANH because he had NO IDEA if it would be successful. But when you are already on top, logic dictates that you write the entire trilogy story. I'm not quite sure why no one is questioning this.
Reply by Horus Mazinga
on February 13, 2018 at 1:39 PM
So you would defend it even if we got long scenes of Luke in a coma, doing nothing because, hey, these things happen in life. How about Luke is really into Space Football and cannot peel himself away from Space TV? Who wouldn't identify with that in some way? So easily explained away as reasonable. Oh! How bout Luke has a drug addiction and we see him wallowing in his own filth. Even a toddler could see that that would keep him from being the same good 'ol Luke.
Apologists. There is always a big budget movie with an army of apologists.
Reply by Russ007
on February 13, 2018 at 6:26 PM
What's funny is I would wholeheartedly accept that.
Same with Alien: Covenant -- if the director wants to take things in a different direction (that doesn't contradict* established canon!!!), I couldn't care less what they make the characters do.
Unlike you guys, I don't live life in denial. Luke is, well, Luke and therefore anything he does or says is instantly a characteristic of his.
*N.B. A character arc is not a contradiction to canon - merely an addition.
Reply by Russ007
on February 13, 2018 at 6:36 PM
Yes, I read your posts. Seems as if you lack plasticity for anything since 1983.
Reply by sati_84
on February 14, 2018 at 2:07 AM
I wasn't even born in 1983. I liked many movies / TV series that were made this decade, and... wait, this isn't even about the movie... Have you ran out of arguments perhaps?
Reply by Horus Mazinga
on February 14, 2018 at 12:15 PM
OK. I hear in the next John Wick that he collects stamps, never fires a gun, and licks cold cuts and sticks them to the wall. People better not complain because it is within the realm of possibility. Also within the realm of possibility: plummeting box office take.
Reply by movie_nazi
on February 14, 2018 at 3:39 PM
Reply by Russ007
on February 14, 2018 at 3:51 PM
You're pushing the scenario too far @Horus Mazinga and you know that.
What happened with Luke in TLJ is objectively speaking more than passable. And I say "passable" because it's not like becoming a hermit was impossible or absurd.
At the end of the day I find it rather pathetic how 'fans' simply cannot accept that Luke is no longer the optimistic guy he once was. That seems to be the major argument most of you guys have... including @sati_84.
Reply by Midi-chlorian_Count
on February 15, 2018 at 4:37 AM
It's only really "objectively" passable if you discount the backstories that were already established for Luke and Kylo in TFA.
Of course doing so only makes Luke in TLJ subjectively acceptable.
Reply by HAL 9010'
on February 15, 2018 at 7:55 AM
I would rather say it boils down to opinions. And in my opinion, they mistreated the character. Pure and simple, and this is not just some character mind you. It is a character that we have waited for for some 35 years to revisit, and a child hero to many of us, no least… and even the TFA made it look like some good old fashion arsewooping was to be expected in TLJ (even the title pedestal him) …. And that is it, imo. WE ARE DISAPPOINTIED AND FEEL LET DOWN…. Some don’t, and that is cool. I would like to convince them for some odd reason that I do not know, but in the end of the day our different opinions are what makes the world exciting....
All our opinions are ultimately a measurement of our experience versus our expectation (or hope). Many of us did not get fulfillment .... and this is the reason you read. We disagree in their treatment of Luke. None of us are pathetic, just wishful.
Reply by Russ007
on February 15, 2018 at 8:53 AM
Well maybe I wasn't disappointed because I didn't see Luke ever returning to his former self. Even at the end of TFA he didn't look excited or happy to see his lightsaber imo so I wasn't shocked when Ryan continued from that. Throwing it off the cliff was over the top, but at the very least it instantly showed us exactly who Luke was/is.
And I never called anyone "pathetic". Instead I was talking about their stubbornness/attitude being pathetic to witness.
Reply by HAL 9010'
on February 15, 2018 at 9:07 AM
Each to our own. It is very much in the eye of the beholder for sure. TFA was essentially about finding Luke so he could join the fight again.... and this at least was not quite delivered until the end - and to many of us, not even then. But I think you know were we are coming from? You seem to like James Bond (via your avatar) and so I assume you have strong predefined opinions on how Bond is and should be... we have strong predefined opinions on how Luke is and should be. Same thing. If the next Bond will have him throw his PPK over his shoulder and spend most of the movie complaining and away from martinis and loose girls, and in the end he will send an angry sms to the villain before he commits suicide.... then I imagine posts from you, no? ;)
Reply by Horus Mazinga
on February 15, 2018 at 12:52 PM
Here is the story of Luke Skywalker: As a youth he dreamed of adventure and wanted to join the Rebellion. He is united with an old Jedi who trains him in the art. He becomes the savior of the Rebellion. He discovers his dark heritage. He wrestles with it. He overcomes. He redeems his father. Then he grows old and jaded and won't even come to the aid of the struggling Rebellion he once championed. Doesn't even care about old friends showing up or dead. Even in the end, he only makes a telephone call to help before just dying. Never shows up. The End
Who likes that ending? You, apparently. This isn't a black and white French film. It's an adventure tale. The star needs a glorious end, not a ""pathetic"" one. King Arthur should not die choking on a chicken bone.
I liked many things in TLJ. But I hated an equal number of things. The treatment of this long honored character, the star of the original trilogy, is among those things that are inexcusable.
Reply by Russ007
on February 15, 2018 at 3:43 PM
Yes, I understand where you're coming from. I mean, I think we can all agree that Luke has evolved since Ep. VI. Most find it refreshing (and an acceptable continuation) like me, whereas others for whatever reason can't let it pass. That's it really.
I knew someone was going to bring Bond into this sooner or later... First of all, Bond is perhaps a more simple character to profile in the films, but he is more fleshed out and well known than Luke is. With Bond there are over 48 hours worth of films and a dozen or so books to dissect. Therefore every fan has roughly the exact same image of him in mind. His character is so strongly defined that the writers struggle to come up with new stuff. The boundaries for his persona are tight: he cannot cry (sans OHMSS and maybe CR (2006) ), he must be dependent, he must eat/drink/drive/wear only certain brands and he must always be the good guy no matter how murky the water gets.
Your example for the next Bond instantly exceeds the boundaries for the role. There's a stark difference in unceremoniously committing suicide versus giving up on his buddies for, what, a few years?
Most importantly, I don't get upset when Bond films almost exceed the boundaries. (And as previously pointed out, the writers can't exceed them.) Skyfall is one of my favorite of all time and yet it is the film that least feels like a Bond film - mainly due to the deconstruction of his identity (already strong borderline) and showing him as a weak and troubled human being. Despite being different to every other JB film, I love it. It still manages to meet most quota and thus narrowly escapes not feeling like a different franchise. Also, the man we do 'discover' in SF is the Bond we always knew. We were simply shown another side of him. It doesn't contradict anything as with Luke in TLJ. That's how I see it anyway.