Discuss Star Wars: The Last Jedi
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Absolutely disgraceful what they did to Luke's character
posted by sati_84STAFFMOD on January 11, 2018 at 8:53 AM
(Warning: wall of text rant incoming!)
First of all, I hate the "Mentor must die" trope. I find the basic idea of someone who is over 60 is "useless for the plot" therefore must die, really disturbing.
I mean a dying moment for a beloved character is always painful, and I'm not entirely against a well crafted death scene. Han Solo's death in TFA did have some meaning as Kylo Ren was hesitating and was in turmoil before making the decision. The circumstances added some thematic meaning to his death. I did not like the scene itself, I think it was poorly filmed and not very well acted, but I understood what the point of the filmmaker was. It was poorly executed (pun not intended) but I got the point.
But man... what is this? Yes, Luke is well over 60 in this movie, but he is still the most powerful Force user in the galaxy at this moment (I believe he is a notch above Snoke, even), and this is what they do with him?
I don't have a problem with the idea that Luke is not perfect and had a moment where he thought he can protect the galaxy by killing Kylo. On a very basic level, this conflict inside Luke, inside Kylo Ren and the conflict between the two characters is interesting. The idea is interesting for such a conflict to occur... but the movie takes this idea and absolutely botches it. I even liked the idea of the different interpretations (Luke having crazy, rage-filled eyes when Kylo is telling the story was a nice touch) of the event. These scenes however are still badly done, and the mere fact that the breaking point of Kylo hung on this singular event is a bit of a stretch - especially that we don't know what went down between him and Snoke prior to that.
Also, a sidenote: his moment of weakness was caused by his determination to keep the people and the galaxy safe from the Dark Side, right? He wants to defend what was achieved at the end of ROTJ, which is comletely understandable. But after he survived the attack on the Jedi Academy... he is just giving up? I mean Kylo is joining forces with Snoke, creating / strengthening the First Order, killing millions if not billions in the galaxy... and Luke is suddenly OK with this? I mean does he seriously think that he would make the situation worse somehow if he tried to fight back / join the Resistance / help and protect Leia / go on a suicide mission to duel with Snoke & Kylo / or... DO ANYTHING? It's horrifyingly out of character for him to do nothing! Also, it's too similar to Yoda's solution in ESB (in EP III actually). I mean for a series that prides itself on being different from the OT, it still has similar elements when it's convenient for the writers... because of course.
I can imagine Luke being in despair for maybe a few weeks, but I think he would have snapped out of it, seeing that Leia and Han are in immediate danger as long as the First Order exists, and they (and again, of course all the other people in the galaxy) were the reason for even founding his Jedi Academy. He would not suddenly stop fighting.
And then he has his death scene preceded by some cool projection tricks. The scene on the Crystal Fox planet was great, and I understand the physical reasons why Luke died, however it was not the death that Luke would have deserved. Buying a couple of minutes for the Resistance to get away... is not a legendary act fitting his character (also, it's similar to how Obi-Wan dies in ANH, but of course it's not a problem here because of... reasons). Also, Yoda asked him to teach Rey a lesson, and... he kind of didn't. I mean Rey did not even witness the event first hand, and buying time to aid a getaway is not exactly a Jedi-exclusive thing to do... Maybe Force Projection as a skill will be useful for Rey, but Luke did not actually teach her how to do it... So I believe Yoda will be an angry Force Ghost in IX!
The character interpretation should be that he embraced the legend he has become... which thematically kind of makes sense, but from a plot standpoint he must know that he is actually the most powerful Force user, and his skills would be tremendously useful... you know, in an actual battle with the First Order. He is vastly more useful to the Resistance living than dead, but this is just such a no-brainer, I feel I'm insulting whoever is reading this just by mentioning this fact. Especially now, that Luke is aware of a really-really strong other Force user he could join forces with and guide her (learning from his past mistakes ofc). Him dying this way is just not a logical action, and this is where the writing room rears its ugly head: we know he only dies because the writers decided that they are going to use the trope I mentioned at the very beginning of my post.
In fact, the new trilogy is a story about new and young characters, so out with the old, in with the new! Literally, as in Han, Luke and Leia must die. I would rather see them helping the new characters, instruct them, guide them and maybe die but in more meaningful ways. Of course the fact that what I want doesn't happen in the movie is not a valid criticism, and I don't mean it like that, just wanted to mention it.
So actually in TFA, Han Solo was utilized OK, but TLJ just cannot fit Luke into the story that it's trying to tell. This is a story about Kylo and Rey fundamentally, and I find their characters and their storyline interesting. Luke doesn't fit in there, so he must die. They don't even try to do something interesting or meaningful with Luke. He doesn't really teach Rey ('in that case it would be too similar to ESB, hurr-durr' - well, it all depends on the execution, you know), doesn't really fight for the Resistance, doesn't really have any significant part in all that is going down... and that irritates me and I find it disrespectful.
Thoughts?
(inb4 anyone brings it up: I did not like Obi-Wan dying in ANH either, his death was also kind of pointless, but the rest of the movie made up for it. The rest of TLJ did not make up for the above, hence my rant)
Reply by Russ007
on February 9, 2018 at 9:12 AM
No, he (Luke) didn't defeat the Emperor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Had he actually killed him, he would have given into his anger and turned. You really aren't able to understand the OT films or what? Seriously. It was Vader's compassion, empathy for Luke, and in a way unadulterated vengeance that killed the Emperor and his dynasty with it. Luke was merely the catalyst.
It's been thirty long years and as I said; Luke's awful vision of Ben and his nephew's ensuing turn is what made him extra cynical and DISCONNECTED with the force. He says it himself. It's why he and Leia aren't sharing telepathic thoughts until he regains his powers and then she immediately wakes up and says "Luke". They were not communicating prior to that (since Ben's turn I presume) and it was only due to Rey that he found out how endangered they all were. He might of known that it wasn't perfect, but he didn't actually know the reality of current affairs. And once he comes back to the force, he helps them out.
Ok, sure, Luke's reaction wasn't dramatic. I thought it was odd that they cut it after a few words, but that's up to the director/editor. Wasn't out of character though, because he was still shocked by Han's death and taken back by the thought. He still cared ENOUGH imho.
P.S. All the hate comments on this thread getting 'thumbs up' goes to show how biased this discussion is.
Reply by mcse2000ca
on February 9, 2018 at 10:04 AM
OR maybe it shows the contempt alot of people have for this mess
Reply by Glenn Medeiros
on February 10, 2018 at 4:39 AM
I Glenn is no 8 - more like you guys is because laughing at someone no first language English but still showing you you is wrong.
Also more acting like 8 because saying star wars last jedi no funny unless 8 and jokes no intentional. Of course they intentional!! What no intentional? You just no like because probably sit crying with 1980s vhs star wars "boo hoo, no meant be like this, no like this girl, no like Luke now, no like jokes"
Well you sad old mans you keep crying with your vhs. Plenty people enough loving new funny star wars without needing old belly gazers. I say again nothing's gonna change my love for star wars last jedi very good action and very funny!
Reply by Jedan Archer
on February 10, 2018 at 12:30 PM
People laugh at you because your broken English impression is so overacted and fake that it becomes fun again. Congrats. One of the worst online performances ever.
Reply by AlienFanatic
on February 10, 2018 at 2:05 PM
Well, it is a discussion of opinions, which is just a position arrived at after a person weighs the facts against their biases. If you hadn't noticed, TMDB comments tend to prefer traditionalist interpretations of movie subject matter.
I'm amazed the legs this thread has had even as TFA largely exits the multiplex.
I haven't seen the film yet, so I'm still malleable even though I suspect that I too will side with the traditionalist camp.
Reply by Russ007
on February 10, 2018 at 4:38 PM
There's a difference between someone posting and getting organic "likes" and then the ones which are spawned by the poster themselves and bot members.
If you haven't seen the film then why are you on this board?!?!?!?
Reply by Don Jon
on February 10, 2018 at 5:22 PM
have you seen the room?
Reply by Jedan Archer
on February 11, 2018 at 7:14 AM
Yes. No contest. Tommy Wiseau is Laurence Olivier compared to that.
Reply by Glenn Medeiros
on February 11, 2018 at 10:09 AM
Oh dear mr jedan archer no! I going to tell you I Glenn find very funny you say English "impression" but so funny I show to Bobby. Anyway Bobby he laugh so hard but then he no stop laugh! And he on floor no stop laugh and I get scare - I bang wall for Miguel "Miguel please come help Bobby" I scream! Anyway Miguel come and he no what to do. He take belt off and put in Bobby mouth - BELT no anything else Bobby no like that! Anyway it help Bobby ok now.
So I want ask you mr jedan you agreeing that star wars now meant be funny? I think no arguings that. Poe always laugh in face of Kylo and Hux no way Luke ever do that. I tell Bobby you answer but no show him because he thinking you too funny and I no want him go real crazy again!!
Reply by sati_84
on February 12, 2018 at 4:19 AM
Luke VS Emperor
Yeah, I'll give you that, he himself did not do it, but it was still the direct consequence of his actions: the way he believed Vader had good in him, and the way he confronted Vader and the Emperor. His goal was to redeem his father all right, but his sub-goal was to defeat the Empire and save his friends... And he did.
Luke and disconnection
There is only one new element that you added to your argument, so let's go with that: maybe Luke is not aware of the current state of affairs in the galaxy and not aware of his sister fighting a war at any point in the 30 years between ROTJ and TFA/TLJ, but even if I buy this (and I don't), he clearly knows about Snoke's existence. And no matter what transpired between him and Ben, Ben is now a threat, and he is teaming up with Snoke. It's clearly stated in the movie that Luke knows about this.
Now, from this point it doesn't take the brainpower of a Jedi Master to figure out what is going to happen: Snoke and Ben won't be chilling out in a dark cave somewhere at the end of the Galaxy - they are going to have plans. And those plans are going to involve blowing up a few planets, taking over the galaxy, flaying some kittens... you know, the usual Sith stuff. Leia won't stand for it, Han won't stand for it, so they are going to be in danger (Luke must know this without being able to communicate with Leia - he knows his sister...) A youngling can figure this out.
So there you have it: Luke must be fully aware of Leia & Han being in danger - it's ridiculous to claim otherwise. He is disconnected with the Force, but he can still think - so it's completely unacceptable and out of character for him not to act - and we are back to my previous post. So your new-ish argument: "Oh, he didn't know" doesn't hold blue milk, sorry.
In summary: for Luke to be "cynical and disconnected from the Force" is out of character in the first place, but even if we accept this, he should still be aware what is happening (as I demonstrated above), and him not doing anything about it is just extremely dsrespectful handling of his character.
Reply by Russ007
on February 12, 2018 at 11:28 AM
He doesn't know anything much regarding this new tension between the Resistance and the Empire. For all he knows, Ben slipped down a staircase and died a while back. And Luke's apathy towards life is something that even a toddler can comprehend. Just look at him. Alone, tired, and indifferent to Rey's plea. If you didn't see that then I'd recommend not going to see movies anymore.
Reply by mcse2000ca
on February 12, 2018 at 2:34 PM
Exactly this movie is so out of touch it must be meant for toddlers
Reply by AlienFanatic
on February 12, 2018 at 4:03 PM
I'm interested in reading the responses.
And I have a pretty good grasp of what it is that people object to about Luke's character. It doesn't take a viewing to understand that a severe change in a character's perceived personality is jarring to many.
Reply by movie_nazi
on February 12, 2018 at 4:46 PM
Please, please, please guys and gals. I implore you, DO NOT pay to see episode 9 or Solo or any more SW films until Disney gets their shit together! Its not a big deal to wait 3 whole months for it to get released on DVD or grab a bootleg copy if your curiosity gets the better of you. But we can complain all day until the cows come home but until they feel a pinch in the wallet they will keep churning out this crap. It drives me nuts when I hear people say "You know, after the third viewing I realized it was garbage."
Do what?! Congratulations numb nuts, you just gave Disney 3 tickets to a shitty movie. Oh, they are totally motivated to change things over at Lucasfilm now. 
Reply by sati_84
on February 13, 2018 at 3:15 AM
I won't even dignify this "argument" with a reply, you can't be serious.
And Luke's apathy towards life is something that even a toddler can comprehend. Just look at him. Alone, tired, and indifferent to Rey's plea. If you didn't see that then I'd recommend not going to see movies anymore.
Have you not read my previous posts? I clearly see the fact that he is alone, tired and indifferent. I can see that - and while I'm seeing that this is the scenario the movie presents us, in the meantime I think this is completely out of character for Luke. This is not how Luke would react to the events that occurred preceding TFA and TLJ. This is just not the same character we met in the OT.
By the way, the other day I found a great critique of the film:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk
This video (and the second and third parts as well) are masterfully dissecting every little thing that is wrong with the plot, the new characters, the old characters, etc. The videos are interspersed with bits of interviews with Mark Hamill, who, himself, articulates the major problems with Luke's character. And no, it's not meaningless grumbling from an old man who is refusing to pass the torch. What he says are valid arguments, and the core issue is that Rey doesn't earn any powers or abilities she possesses. She just has them right from the start, whereas Luke went through training, made rushed decisions (remember in TESB when he wanted to save his friends from suffering? Why wouldn't he want to do that in (or rather before) TLJ?), and generally had a meaningful journey where he learned something every step of the way. I don't hate Rey's character, as I find it interesting. I'm just extremely sad about how the New Trilogy handles the characters of the Old Trilogy.