I also found this that talks more about the imposter theory. Seems like its gaining as much traction as the "Red is really Katarina with a sex change!" theories gained.

Two things: 1) I forgot about the Naval Officer thing. Hm. 2) That site posits that Red is actually Dom's son, making Katarina his sister. Katarina got pregnant by the real Red, who was killed by Liz. Katarina's brother (Dom Jr? lol) takes his identity. Interesting. So maybe that is what Raymond whispered to Kirk.

well looks like I was right. The bones belong to the real Raymond Reddington. The only question now is who is the Red we've been seeing all along. I think the jury is still out as far as him being Katarina's brother (he took the bones to Dom's house and Dom watched as he burned them).

I can't help but to be ticked off. The twist about this not being the read Reddington is overshadowed by my belief Tom was alive, only to show Liz was imagining him. I literally screamed out and threw my arms in the air when they showed Tom. I'm a huge fan of the character and always thought he may be alive. Bitch.

@GForce59 said:

I can't help but to be ticked off. The twist about this not being the read Reddington is overshadowed by my belief Tom was alive, only to show Liz was imagining him. I literally screamed out and threw my arms in the air when they showed Tom. I'm a huge fan of the character and always thought he may be alive. Bitch.

I held out hope too, that maybe Howard had him stashed somewhere recovering. Alas.

@RodimusConvoy said:

I also found this that talks more about the imposter theory. Seems like its gaining as much traction as the "Red is really Katarina with a sex change!" theories gained.

Two things: 1) I forgot about the Naval Officer thing. Hm. 2) That site posits that Red is actually Dom's son, making Katarina his sister. Katarina got pregnant by the real Red, who was killed by Liz. Katarina's brother (Dom Jr? lol) takes his identity. Interesting. So maybe that is what Raymond whispered to Kirk.

Well it turns out you were very prescient indeed. For me this was much more of a surprise twist than it was for you. There were several apparent hints, red herrings it turns out, that they might have been the bones of Katarina. I figured that Liz would at some point discover that these were her mother's remains and figure that Red had killed her or was somehow lying to her about what really happened to her. Then she would once again believe him to be a monster. The show would retread that trope once more, the roller coaster of emotions Liz feels for Red, distrusting him, trusting him, loving him, hating him, etc. Personally I think they have Liz cycle through these various viewpoints about Red too much. She seems to completely forget how often he puts his own life on the line to save hers as she periodically brands him an untrustworthy monster who only wants to use her for this or that reason. The writers really overplay this bit. It is unrealistic to me that Liz could forget how thoroughly our Red has proven his love for her, offering his own life for hers on numerous occasions and so on.

If our Red is really Dom's son, Katarina's brother, and Liz Keen's uncle, it would explain his deep affection for Liz, his beloved sister's child. Several times Dembe has asked Red why he doesn't finally tell Liz the truth, and his response was simply "I don't know. I just can't." Dembe asked a good question, and our Red could have averted much trouble indeed had he done so rather than perpetuating the lie.

From the start the man we know as Raymond Reddington, I call him 'our Red', told Elizabeth he wouldn't lie to her. And he told her unequivocally that he was NOT her father. That makes sense now. Once Harold Cooper ran the DNA test which showed that Liz Keen is the daughter of Raymond Reddington, our Red had to play along with being her father in order to keep his cover as Raymond Reddington. But it turns out he was telling her the truth when he told her he was not her father.

I wondered then and still do now, why our Red kept those bones in the first place. I suppose at some point a reason may be suggested to us about that but it isn't apparent to me presently. Since learning of them I have felt that, given his need to keep the secret these bones hold, he should have destroyed them right away.

Anyway, Liz is now back on her "I hate him" kick in which she can see no good in our Red whatsoever. When she was talking to 'hallucination Tom' about how she tricked him, she spoke derisively of how she knew Red would come to 'rescue her', almost as though it were a character flaw. This is, to me, one of the weakest parts of the script. Liz is almost like a multiple personality case the way her view of Red switches so dramatically, the way she ignores or forgets how far he goes to save her when she is in trouble, and how sincerely and categorically he demonstrates his concern and familial love for her. Every time she discovers him keeping a secret from her she undergoes this Jeckyl and Hyde transformation with a histrionic fit of outrage and hatred for Red. "It was all an act! He traded his life for mine just so he could gain my trust! How awful and despicable!" So now she wants to destroy him because he isn't the real Ray Reddington, who is dead. She doesn't care what the facts might be, she is certain they can only confirm and validate her outrage and her mission to destroy him.

I wonder how much longer they will whip this dead horse. At some point, in another season or two, she will learn his real identity and the reasons he went to such lengths to protect her and to hide the truth, and she will revert back to the grateful Liz, the Liz who is touched to tears at the goodness of this criminal. Once she learns he is her uncle (assuming that to be the case) will that signal the end of the series is near at hand? Don't get me wrong, I love this show. And I hope it continues for a long time because I think it is one of the best shows on television, still. But I wonder if they are looking toward that eventual end. I get the sense that perhaps they are. Certain elements are being slowly tied up. Samar and Aram are finally engaged, after years of him vacillating about making a move on her. Off screen the actors have spoken of how difficult it is to produce the show, making me wonder if they are beginning to tire of it. And when they finally do the "big reveal" where Liz learns the identity of our Red, won't that rob us of an essential element of the plot? The mystery of Red's secrets has been a central element of the show from the beginning. And when we learn his real identity and the back story to it everything, that will just about spell the end I would think.

I think it would be better for the show to have an ending which ties up the loose ends, rather than to attempt to keep teasing us forever, or until the ratings begin to fall.

write2topcat,

Well stated. I only want to add: Red didn't keep the Bones, Mr. Kaplan did, presumably in the event Red ever turned against her. Presumably he told her to get rid of the body like he typically does, and she being a forward thinker and planner kept them instead while telling him she did destroy the remains.

@RodimusConvoy said:

write2topcat,

Well stated. I only want to add: Red didn't keep the Bones, Mr. Kaplan did, presumably in the event Red ever turned against her. Presumably he told her to get rid of the body like he typically does, and she being a forward thinker and planner kept them instead while telling him she did destroy the remains.

Maybe. But I was thinking about it more and I wonder if it might have been something like this:

When Red was shot and killed, Katarina was still alive. So she would have had a say in what happened to the bones. Perhaps that farm and the tree under which they were buried held some significance to their relationship, like maybe that was where they first became romantically involved or something. So maybe she wanted his bones buried there. Our Red may have wanted them destroyed, but he had to defer to his sister's wishes in the matter. Mr. Kaplan said something when she dug them up, apologizing to Katarina. So that would make sense. Red apparently knew the bones were there the whole time. When Mr. Kaplan mentioned she had gone to that farm he knew the significance of it. And he and Dembe went straight to that tree and discovered the bones had been dug up. So perhaps he was even present when they were buried at some private burial service.

Assuming our Red is Dom's son, Katarina's brother, Liz' uncle, makes a lot of things make sense to me now.

@write2topcat said:

@RodimusConvoy said:

write2topcat,

Well stated. I only want to add: Red didn't keep the Bones, Mr. Kaplan did, presumably in the event Red ever turned against her. Presumably he told her to get rid of the body like he typically does, and she being a forward thinker and planner kept them instead while telling him she did destroy the remains.

Maybe. But I was thinking about it more and I wonder if it might have been something like this:

When Red was shot and killed, Katarina was still alive. So she would have had a say in what happened to the bones. Perhaps that farm and the tree under which they were buried held some significance to their relationship, like maybe that was where they first became romantically involved or something. So maybe she wanted his bones buried there. Our Red may have wanted them destroyed, but he had to defer to his sister's wishes in the matter. Mr. Kaplan said something when she dug them up, apologizing to Katarina. So that would make sense. Red apparently knew the bones were there the whole time. When Mr. Kaplan mentioned she had gone to that farm he knew the significance of it. And he and Dembe went straight to that tree and discovered the bones had been dug up. So perhaps he was even present when they were buried at some private burial service.

Assuming our Red is Dom's son, Katarina's brother, Liz' uncle, makes a lot of things make sense to me now.

That makes a lot of sense. Not it's all finally starting to make sense.

So the real Red was probably a good and honest man. Why would the guy we know as Red assume his identity?

@GForce59 said:

@write2topcat said:

@RodimusConvoy said:

write2topcat,

Well stated. I only want to add: Red didn't keep the Bones, Mr. Kaplan did, presumably in the event Red ever turned against her. Presumably he told her to get rid of the body like he typically does, and she being a forward thinker and planner kept them instead while telling him she did destroy the remains.

Maybe. But I was thinking about it more and I wonder if it might have been something like this:

When Red was shot and killed, Katarina was still alive. So she would have had a say in what happened to the bones. Perhaps that farm and the tree under which they were buried held some significance to their relationship, like maybe that was where they first became romantically involved or something. So maybe she wanted his bones buried there. Our Red may have wanted them destroyed, but he had to defer to his sister's wishes in the matter. Mr. Kaplan said something when she dug them up, apologizing to Katarina. So that would make sense. Red apparently knew the bones were there the whole time. When Mr. Kaplan mentioned she had gone to that farm he knew the significance of it. And he and Dembe went straight to that tree and discovered the bones had been dug up. So perhaps he was even present when they were buried at some private burial service.

Assuming our Red is Dom's son, Katarina's brother, Liz' uncle, makes a lot of things make sense to me now.

That makes a lot of sense. Not it's all finally starting to make sense.

So the real Red was probably a good and honest man. Why would the guy we know as Red assume his identity?

Good question. That part isn't clear to me, but I would assume that our Red probably assumed his identity in order to be rich and powerful enough to provide protection for Liz, the same reasons he has given in the series when he talks about it. I don't think our Red has been lying about that. I guess that since everyone assumed Red had the Fulcrum that he was somewhat protected by the cabal and allowed to run a criminal enterprise without interference. (Clearly Dom, Katarina's father didn't like him doing that. Our Red said something to him once like 'I know you have never approved of the way I have lived my life' or words to that effect. ) But that is one question I think will probably be answered better whenever we are given the "big reveal", i.e. when Liz learns our Red's real identity, when he admits and confesses everything to her.
It isn't clear to me at present whether the real Red had already set up any kind of criminal network before his death. I have a lot of open questions about that.

I love this show. I think it is one of the best shows on television. But to me the weakest part of the plot is the way Lizzie reacts to Raymond, over and over again. Her roller coaster Jekyl and Hyde reactions are not worthy of belief for a character who is supposed to have such keen insights into people. You know it will happen. Liz will become outraged because Red kept a secret or she jumps to the wrong conclusion about something. And she shades the truth quite a bit. For example when she was interviewed about Red at one point by that judge about the break-in by Anslo Garrick, she was asked "so he was willing to let those people die and only tried to stop it when you were in danger?" or words to the effect. And Lizzie answers yes. Well that was a blatant untruth. Red begged Harold for the code to open the box when that girl was in danger, and when Dembe was in danger, and again when Liz was in danger.

In the season 5 finale when she is talking to "hallucination Tom" she says:

"I know that this man is an impostor. Why he came into my life, why he took your life, why he spent the last 30 years pretending to be Raymond Reddington. I’m gonna figure all that out, and then I’m going to destroy him."

"Why he took your life." Did Red take Tom's life? Nope, that was Ian Garvey. But to Liz, since Red wanted to keep his secret from them all, that amounted to taking Tom's life. Had he actually intended to take Tom's life he had numerous opportunities to do so.

He is the same man who offered up his life in exchange for hers more times than I can recall presently, who has demonstrated to Liz over and over again that he is willing to go broke, lose his own life, lose his freedom, do almost anything to keep her safe. He is the same man who used all his resources to have her name cleared and have her reinstated as an FBI agent.
Yet in the season 5 finale she is back to viewing him as a monster all because he wanted to keep a secret, one which kept him and by extension, her safe her whole life. In fact she even spoke somewhat derisively of his habit of coming to save her when she talked to Tom about her plan to entrap him and learn about the bones. What I find incredible, unworthy of belief, is this tendency of Liz to discount, ignore, or deny all the evidence, all the history, which shows that "our Red" wants to protect and keep her safe. How can she become convinced that Red offers to trade his life for hers over and over again, and risks his life time after time, simply to "gain my trust". Con men don't give up their lives to fool the mark. And Liz is a profiler? lol

But I am able to overlook this glaring weakness in the plot because the show as a whole is so interesting, and James Spader does such a great job portraying his character.

@RodimusConvoy said:

I also found this that talks more about the imposter theory. Seems like its gaining as much traction as the "Red is really Katarina with a sex change!" theories gained.

Really?! There was a "Red is really Katarina with a sex change!" theory?? hahaha

@write2topcat said:

He is the same man who offered up his life in exchange for hers more times than I can recall presently, who has demonstrated to Liz over and over again that he is willing to go broke, lose his own life, lose his freedom, do almost anything to keep her safe. He is the same man who used all his resources to have her name cleared and have her reinstated as an FBI agent.

I think she's going to realize this, either on her own or by "Red" telling her. Eventually they'll be chummy again. But there lies part the problem: total predictability.

@write2topcat said:

Really?! There was a "Red is really Katarina with a sex change!" theory?? hahaha

You didn't know? It got so bad even the creator had to address it. I think he said something along the lines of he would love for someone to walk him through the logic of it.

write2topcat hit the nail on the head again. IMO this is why people got fed up with Liz early on: after all this time she still sees the world in black and white and finds out there's shades of grey when its too late. How many times can one character learn the same damn lesson over and over again? As usual, she'll figure out, too late, that regardless of why Red is using the real Red's identity he's still a good* man who cares for her and is NOT HER ENEMY. Doubling down on this bs static pattern (her convo with ghost Tom) almost makes me not want to tune in next year.

*good is relative, sure, but I don't think the show would take so much time to show Red cares about people and causes (the whole "this funds terrorism" thing at the auction) if the underlying message is that he's irredeemably evil. Notice they didn't spend too much time on Garvey and Jennifer, they wanted HIM to seem irredeemably evil.

@RodimusConvoy said:

write2topcat hit the nail on the head again. IMO this is why people got fed up with Liz early on: after all this time she still sees the world in black and white and finds out there's shades of grey when its too late. How many times can one character learn the same damn lesson over and over again? As usual, she'll figure out, too late, that regardless of why Red is using the real Red's identity he's still a good* man who cares for her and is NOT HER ENEMY. Doubling down on this bs static pattern (her convo with ghost Tom) almost makes me not want to tune in next year.

*good is relative, sure, but I don't think the show would take so much time to show Red cares about people and causes (the whole "this funds terrorism" thing at the auction) if the underlying message is that he's irredeemably evil. Notice they didn't spend too much time on Garvey and Jennifer, they wanted HIM to seem irredeemably evil.

Right. I will say I think I understand one reason the writers do this: by 'attacking' our Red in this way it evokes a sympathetic reaction on the part of the audience. But that said, they over play it. At least Lizzie should show some conflicting emotions regarding our Red.

"after all this time she still sees the world in black and white and finds out there's shades of grey when its too late. How many times can one character learn the same damn lesson over and over again?"

YES. And then promptly forget it all over again. It's as though the writers think we viewers have the same kind of amnesia regarding Liz. And again, Liz is a profiler?? Where is her acute insight into human nature?