@lennonforever said:

@Raymondoz2007 said:

One could argue that Eugene knows he's not Darryl and cannot standup to Negan...so he bided his time until his brillence could turn the tables on Negan.

Nah, I'm not buying it. He was "all in" against Rick. He wasn't biding his time. What ultimately made him turn against Negan, I don't know. And as for Gabriel, I was sickened by his cowardice when they all first met up. I am on the fence about his "worth" in the community.

I don't think Eugene was playing the long game. All things being equal, I think he chooses Rick and the group. However, for quite a while that was not an option, so he went with the Negan thing. When things went bad at the Sanctuary, he likely saw an opening to get back to Rick's group.

LennonForever:

How can you or anyone still be on the fence about Gabriel?!

He has shown his worth countless times now. He's had one of the better well written arc and character development that has been equally well performed the show.

@Nubyan said:

LennonForever:

How can you or anyone still be on the fence about Gabriel?!

He has shown his worth countless times now. He's had one of the better well written arc and character development that has been equally well performed the show.

I'm not on the fence about Gabriel. I understand he's solid team Rick. Now. Took him bloody long enough. And his BS at Alexandria likely cost lives, as it fed the mistrust, hampered the alignment to stop fighting within and focus outside the walls.

DRD:

I feel like you're holding back on us and not REALLY telling us how you REALLY feel about Eugene. Like I REALLY want you to reach down REALLY deep and just REALLY let it all out.

None of this passive aggressive bullshit like you shared above. 🤣🤣🤣😉😉😉

@Nubyan said:

DRD:

I feel like you're holding back on us and not REALLY telling us how you REALLY feel about Eugene. Like I REALLY want you to reach down REALLY deep and just REALLY let it all out.

None of this passive aggressive bullshit like you shared above. 🤣🤣🤣😉😉😉

LOL!!

:-)

@Nubyan said:

@write2topcat: I don't believe Eugene knew what Eugene would do. But there has always been that nagging moral compass that he was always struggling with. It lead him to help the Hilltop doctor escape with Gabriel. It lead him to give Sasha the suicide pills. It lead him to not dime on Dwight when he could have and still save his own ass.

Eugene was always teetering between Rick or Negan. Rick and Co. fought and died for each other. That was Eugene's home and people for far longer than Negan and the Saviors. Negan lived for Negan.

I believe that Eugene saw an opportunity towards the very end of preparation, leading up to the beginning of war. Which is when he decided.

Eugene had fooled and lied to Negan enough times without detection to be trusted by Negan. Therefore, it's not so farfetched that he could fool the viewing audience. Because he fooled you and he fooled me.

Yeah those are good observations and valid points. I agree that he felt conflicted when he was faced with choices on whether to help a member of the Rick group, and he tried to help them when he could. He shows that he values friendship, as when, as you pointed out, he covered for Dwight rather than ratting him out to Negan. When I said he was all in for Negan I meant that he had looked at the whole situation and calculated that Negan was the most powerful player on the field, and since he had been captured by Negan and couldn't get away anyway, he decided to throw in with Negan. It was all about self preservation, not about loyalty to Negan. I don't think anybody ever considered Negan a friend. He didn't side with him because he liked him. Probably more than anyone he feared Negan (because Eugene feels fear more than any other emotion). So when Negan spared him in return for him joining and helping the saviors, he did what he always does, he chose to join and serve the saviors. When the groups faced off, he stood with Negan. He calculated the likely ultimate outcome of the war between the two groups and chose the likely victor. In a way I don't blame him. He is a spineless and nearly helpless coward, so it is logical for him to make that choice.

But you're right also that Eugene viewed Rick's group as his home, his friends, the people he had history with, and who had forgiven him for his cowardly nature and actions. So when he saw that Rick's group could win the war at that battle if he sabotaged the ammo he recalculated who would win and chose Rick's group. That was out of character for Eugene. He took a risk by sabotaging the ammo. It could have been discovered prior to the battle and that would have been curtains for him.

@write2topcat:

It's always about self preservation...not just for Eugene. If not, why bother with any of it?

Rick and Co. would have lost the war if not for Eugene. They were surrounded on the field. If the ammo or guns hadn't been tampered with...it would have been lights out for Rick.

Don't get it twisted with respect to "fear" as an emotion. Fear is good. It allows us to keep our wits about us in a life or death situation. Fear gives us power in many cases for which we may not have any.

Say what you will about Eugene, because I have probably said them too. He appears to be spineless. But, spineless he is not. He proved that...whatever the reasons. With that said, I for one will be cutting him some slack.

Yes he came through for the group at the end. The writers for this show like to rehab and redeem characters who have made a mess of things, or let people down, betrayed them, etc. They did this with Father Gabriel quite a while back. They did it with Jesus quite quickly. He was introduced as a devious thief but then they showed us a better side to him. There are other examples. It's a fictional show so anything can happen, it just depends on how they choose to write the characters. And because surprise twists keep the viewers interested, guessing, intrigued, etc. they often show us first one extreme side of a character, and later show us a transformation or dramatic change in behavior. This is a common trope. When a character is introduced showing an extreme character trait, or committing an extremely troubling behavior the viewers are then that much more surprised when presented with a dramatically different picture of that person. Of course people can and do change in real life, but viewers are surprised when they see the kind of dramatic turn about which may differ from their experience of the real world. People who exhibit anti social behavior can change, but it is rare to see an extreme change occur, especially in a short period of time. An exception might be found in people who have undergone a religious experience and conversion.

Eugene was introduced as a self described coward. He confessed this to the group, but of course there would have been no point in attempting to deny it. He was shown overcome by fear several times, one time freezing in place as a walker approached him until he was saved by Abraham, sometimes squealing and running, and at times shoving others out of the way as he ran for cover, to their detriment. As I said, the writers like to show us extreme examples of poor character or behavior sometimes as they introduce us to people, before later 'redeeming' them.

And yes fear, like anxiety, and pain, has a benefit provided it does not overwhelm a person. I always used the anxiety I felt as exam time approached to motivate me to study hard to do well. Pain is beneficial as it alerts us to damage to our bodies so we can take actions to prevent further, more serious damage. Fear is similar to anxiety and can also motivate us to take steps to better prepare ourselves to deal with the object of our fear. But each of these can also be damaging to people when it occurs in excess. You will pass out from too much pain, and chronic pain has many harmful effects. Excessive anxiety and excessive fear can absolutely debilitate an individual to the point they may sit in one place quivering, obsessed and overcome. We have seen Eugene do that. We've seen him shut down from fear. And we've seen him fail to help others in need because of his fear walkers, or of Negan. Recently, and especially in the last episode we have seen small acts of courage. In fact it took a big act of courage for him to sabotage the bullets the way he did. In that instance his fear of rejection by Rosita was greater than his fear of being found out; it was her words to him letting him know how much he had disappointed her that drove him to take the risk of turning against Negan by sabotaging the bullets. He said as much to her after the battle was over.

The writers run a risk of over doing it, of using this trope too much, or to too great of an extreme. When the behaviors change so much that they lack verisimilitude, viewers can begin to feel....umm, well a mix of things. Duped? Even insulted perhaps?

Let's consider Negan. There is a guy who is right up there with some of the worst criminals, despots, dictators, etc. He not only enjoys torturing people, both physically and mentally, he feels entitled to enslave them. And in his first scene in the show, we saw his worst traits on display with no redeeming qualities. He bashed in Abraham's and Glenn's heads so hard that Glenn's eyes even popped out, and he laughed and danced a jig after he did so. He used terrorism to force people to capitulate as slaves, starving themselves in order to meet his quotas. He used public murders and public torture to maintain his control over them. Though he said he didn't want to kill people, he clearly enjoyed doing so. He also called his system of murder, torture and enslavement "salvation", showing that his statements could not be taken at face value. He used a kind of "newspeak" similar to 1984. His actions could constitute war crimes, (though that is problematic because there are no countries in the post apocalyptic world and using the word war as we do might not apply in that instance). In real life, when you see someone that pathologically committed to sadism, torture and murder as his preferred means of enforcing his dictatorship, you don't ever see them change from within into a nice person.

But the TWD writers have hinted that this may be in the works. First they began to humanize Negan by having him show feelings of affection for Carl. To some extent they began to present him in such light as to suggest that he was sort of a reasonable person. Then they had Carl write that maudlin letter to Rick asking him to find a way to live in peace with Negan, to stop fighting and get along with each other.

That was a bit much. Carl knew as well as anyone that Negan was a sadistic dictator determined to continue enslaving people and using murder and terrorism to maintain control of them. And so does Rick.

But the writers seem to love this redemption trope. I sense that they think over time the viewers will kind of forget the brutal murders of Abraham and Glenn, and they can humanize Negan, perhaps even have him undergo some kind of conversion. Perhaps he will even perform some selfless actions to save members of the group. Members of the group may begin to feel conflicting emotions about Negan at that point. Rick may recall Carl's letter once again, with melodic chime music playing in the background, and memories of himself and Carl strolling together down that idyllic country road. "My mercy overcomes my rage" Rick had said to himself toward the end of this last episode, teary eyed, looking toward the sky. Strong religious overtones there. I think this was shown to offer some explanation to the viewers as to why Rick broke his many promises to kill Negan. He made those promises with unshakable commitment and determination. I don't think there was any other way to try to explain his broken promises than to suggest a religious aspect to his decision, and to play on Carl's letter.)

But the writers run a big risk if they try to "redeem" Negan. Doing so would stretch credulity to the breaking point. Is it theoretically possible? Sure, almost anything could happen, in theory. Can anyone name a real life monster like Negan who 1- underwent a radical personal change and became a decent person, and 2- found acceptance in the community of the sort suggested in Carl's letter? I can't. And I don't think the viewers would buy it.

@Nubyan said:

@write2topcat:

It's always about self preservation...not just for Eugene. If not, why bother with any of it?

Yes, and the show has shown that people need people, they can't "self-preserve" only by looking out for self. Protecting others in your group is a part of self-preservation. How far would Eugene have gotten had he not had Abraham looking out for him? Protecting Abraham, an other, would have been the best way to protect himself. Extrapolate accordingly.

Rick and Co. would have lost the war if not for Eugene. They were surrounded on the field. If the ammo or guns hadn't been tampered with...it would have been lights out for Rick.

You've forgotten, the Saviors were out of bullets! There'd have been no war if not for Eugene making bullets for the Saviors.

Come to think of it, wouldn't it have been cool if Eugene had been making bullets for Rick's group instead? Shucks, they might have finally brought the Saviors to surrender sooner, with less bloodshed.

Don't get it twisted with respect to "fear" as an emotion. Fear is good. It allows us to keep our wits about us in a life or death situation. Fear gives us power in many cases for which we may not have any.

Yes, fear is good, but it needs to be checked and balanced. Alexandria had to learn fear, they were blissfully ignorant of what was really going on out there, and it cost them, yes. But I don't need to provide you with any of the myriad examples in the show that fear unchecked was more destructive than helpful. Reference accordingly.

Say what you will about Eugene, because I have probably said them too. He appears to be spineless. But, spineless he is not. He proved that...whatever the reasons. With that said, I for one will be cutting him some slack.

Of course you can cut Eugene some slack. I support you in this 100%

The story has twisted and turned to the point where Eugene is back with Rick's group, so the writers are manipulating us as viewers, to a degree. The show has lost a lot of viewers and critical literary reviews because of implausible writing manipulations, and finding a way back for Eugene may be, for many viewers, just one more that smacks of "oh, c'mon, for the love of..."

There will be viewers who love or hate every and any character, for whatever reasons (often because we project our values onto the characters and resonate with whom we will more as an expression of who we are than who the characters are). That's what makes a show watchable for a wider audience of different people, and why coming to these boards to discuss is so refreshing, getting to see the story with more dimensions, through eyes that are not my own.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

The story has twisted and turned to the point where Eugene is back with Rick's group, so the writers are manipulating us as viewers, to a degree. The show has lost a lot of viewers and critical literary reviews because of implausible writing manipulations, and finding a way back for Eugene may be, for many viewers, just one more that smacks of "oh, c'mon, for the love of..."

Man, you're not kidding. When the show strays so far from the viewers' own experience of reality (apart from the zombie aspect of course, which we accept as a premise) it evokes negative feelings as viewers feel: mocked, manipulated, patronized, insulted, etc.

The word is verisimilitude, when the viewers can relate to the characters, their interactions, etc. based upon their own experiences of real life. When a show lacks this to a significant degree, viewers often begin react negatively toward it.

And I think that is happening with TWD. I'm not sure what the writers are shooting for, but none of us like feeling this manipulated.

Eugene had been gaining courage little by little. Rosita was training him to handle himself against walkers while they were all still at Alexandria. He was doing well considering where he was coming from.

Again, you describe Jesus as devious regarding his first encounter with Rick and Daryl. I would not describe him as such. Resourceful perhaps...but devious is difficult for me to digest regarding that character.

Yes, I agree. Fear can be paralyzing to many depending upon the circumstances. But when a person who is compelled with self preservation...they will more likely than not push through the fear. It comes down to...do I decide to just give up or do I decide to say...by any means necessary. If it is the latter, regardless of the obstacles in front of them, then self preservation it will be.

And then, some may just give up not because of fear, but because of having no desire to commit any part of themself to the new status quo. Similar to what took place in season one or two at the CDC. The scientist and one or two others decided...I'm done. Fuch this shit! This world is not for me and I don't want to be in it. I don't want to have to kill another person to survive. I don't want to end up as a walker entree and I don't for damn sure want to be a walker. For me, I would have stayed back at the CDC and called it quits.

Apocalyptic worlds just don't appeal to me. I am a creature of habit who enjoys the fine comforts of civilization.

The very moment that I would have to deal with CROTCH ITCH and all the other unpleasantness of poor hygiene would be it for me. No fuching thank you!!! 😞😞😞😞

@write2topcat For some reason the thread is not allowing me to quote your post, so I have to hail you.

Rick sparing Negan falls into that category too. You can just picture the writers in conference saying, we have to keep Negan around, so Rick will have a lightbulb change of heart at the last minute just to prove he is still a good guy. They followed the comics storyline so I wasn't surprised but still hated it.

JonnieBlack:

Are you selecting "quote" and then typing? Just attempting to assist.

@Nubyan said:

JonnieBlack:

Are you selecting "quote" and then typing? Just attempting to assist.

Yup. Never had a problem before. It's working on my phone. Must have been the computer.

You know...I find that it's much more user friendly on my phone device.