@Leo of Red Keep said:

@rocketraccoon said:

Dany is a hypocrite and a mass murderer just like her father! Thankfully she wont be around to cause more destruction when Night king is done with her.

Her father was madly paranoid. She doesn't have that excuse.

sure she does, every one wants to fuck her.

I posted this elsewhere on the internet, but the reason I am still mostly rooting for Dany is because she has a very compelling story arc and I understand where she's coming from. She's the daughter of a king whose family was deposed. She basically started from nothing being belittled and sold off by her brother, and now she has an army, dragons, and (as far as she knows) the strongest claim to the iron throne.

I also like the contrast between her and Jon. Jon didn't ask for his power, it was given to him because he's a great warrior and people liked his dad. Dany can't go that route because everyone hated her dad (rightly so) and she's a little woman with no fighting skills so she can't win hearts and minds on the battlefield so people are constantly disrespecting her and underestimating her (Daxos, Pyat Pree, the Khals, the Unsulled salesman, the slavers who backed the Sons of the Harpy).

People are upset that Dany uses violence to get what she wants but that's the only way anyone ever respects her aside from the slaves and Unsullied she frees. The dothraki only follow her because she killed all the Khals, they wouldn't have followed her otherwise. Her only real avenue to command respect from her enemies is through her dragons. The moment they were gone in Meereen she nearly got killed.

I still think Jon is the better leader because he leads because he is forced to lead not because he wanted to lead, but I think Dany is learning from him what a real leader should be. Her arc is not complete yet. I predict all her dragons will die and she will be forced to win favor with people with her integrity and not under threat of being burned to death.

The fact she agreed to stop her war with Cersei in order to take down the Night King with Jon means she cares more about the greater good and not a crown. She could have sat on her ass and not flown up north and save Jon and she would have still had 3 dragons, but she did and she didn't get angry and blame Jon for losing Viserion. She's learning. Cut the woman some slack.

The fact she decided to start that war on her father's land means that she can go back to getting f_cked by savages under a tent. Daenerys is the most disgusting character in the show.

Yada yada yada.....wake up y'all. You only like her because she's every feminist's dream. That's about it. She's barely even qualified to be a lady of a castle. She let her power get to her head when she burned Randall in his kid's presence. She's a merciless brute who is here to invade. What pisses me of is that her fans refuse to see her bad side no matter what. That's the fascinating thing about Jonerys fans....they once called Cersei a monster for blowing up a religious nuthouse with traitors and fanatics but they tirelessly jump to Dany's defense when she barbecued people alive.
Her immoral behavior should not be rewarded with blind loyalty. Just know that Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Every last one of them. She ain't empowering anything by f**king men who disobey her.

@rocketraccoon said:

Yada yada yada.....wake up y'all. You only like her because she's every feminist's dream. That's about it. She's barely even qualified to be a lady of a castle. She let her power get to her head when she burned Randall in his kid's presence. She's a merciless brute who is here to invade. What pisses me of is that her fans refuse to see her bad side no matter what. That's the fascinating thing about Jonerys fans....they once called Cersei a monster for blowing up a religious nuthouse with traitors and fanatics but they tirelessly jump to Dany's defense when she barbecued people alive.
Her immoral behavior should not be rewarded with blind loyalty. Just know that Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Every last one of them. She ain't empowering anything by f**king men who disobey her.

I disagree, but just out of curiosity, what in your opinion should she have done differently that wouldn't have made her look like a weak leader?

I'm very aware of "forced feminism" and the reinforcement of character tropes but I honestly don't think Dany's that bad. She's not 100% good and I like that about her. But she's also not a "a merciless brute". Otherwise so is Jon, who cut off a dude's head the minute he become commander of the Night's Watch who challenged his authority, a guy who begged and pleaded for his life, but Jon cut his head clean off.

How is that any different than Dany killing the Tarly's? Keep in mind she give the senior Tarly an out and he wouldn't take it, and the son volunteered to die with his father against Tyrion's pleas. How is a guy making a dumb prideful decision and his son following his example her fault? She told them what would happen if they didn't join her, if she didn't follow through then she's a bad leader just like Jon would have if he didn't cut that guy's head off.

Am I not being totally objective here?

@cswood said:

@rocketraccoon said:

Am I not being totally objective here?

You are taking the defence of a foreign invader come to "take what (she fantasises) is hers with fire and blood". I, for one, would like to see you burn.

" what in your opinion should she have done differently that wouldn't have made her look like a weak leader?"

I think she should have stayed in Essos continuing to wipe out the influence of the slave traders. Nobody would call her a "weak leader" while the dragons were perching behind her.

Danny started degenerating when she went to Westeros and started her conquest. In Essos she was a Liberator, in Westeros she is just one more warlord.

@Leo of Red Keep said:

@cswood said:

@rocketraccoon said:

Am I not being totally objective here?

You are taking the defence of a foreign invader come to "take what (she fantasises) is hers with fire and blood". I, for one, would like to see you burn.

Oooh. You're trolling. I was hoping for an actual discussion about a fantasy TV show with dragons and vagina smoke monsters but I realize I have erred.

@CharlesTheBold said:

" what in your opinion should she have done differently that wouldn't have made her look like a weak leader?"

I think she should have stayed in Essos continuing to wipe out the influence of the slave traders. Nobody would call her a "weak leader" while the dragons were perching behind her.

Danny started degenerating when she went to Westeros and started her conquest. In Essos she was a Liberator, in Westeros she is just one more warlord.

Come on dude, that's not the show and you know it. That's like saying hey Luke Skywalker, why don't you stay your ass on Tattooine and stop getting involved in The Empire's business. Or hey Arthur, why don't you leave that sword in the stone and stay out of that whole royalty game.

Dany is, as far as she knows, the rightful ruler of Westeros by heritage. Are you seriously telling me if you were in her position and had 3 dragons that you would stay in Essos and not seek your claim on throne? Really? REALLY?

And again with the "bend the knee" stuff, I agree she takes it too far, but again, this is something that would be expected of her subjects if she were their queen. She wants the kingdoms to pledge allegiance to her in order to reinforce her claim to the throne. I agree she goes about it wrong, but it does make sense from her perspective.

But then by the end of the season she proves herself by risking her life to save Jon. He'd be dead without her and that is why he voluntarily bends the knee for her. She earned it. And Jon was rewarded with boat sex so there's that.

Yes, Dany is not an ideal ruler, but then, who is? Dany and Jon together? That's about the best that Westeros will get.

What are the alternatives? Cersei never foresees the consequences of her actions. First there was the Faith Militant, and now there'll be the Golden Company. Does she think, once they have the power, that she can thank them and then they'll politely go home? (Same with Euron, he'll decide he doesn't need her. Wonder which one will turn on the other first?)

Tyrion is clever and moderate, but to most of Westeros he'll always be the kin-slaying Imp. So who is left?

@cswood said:

@Leo of Red Keep said:

@cswood said:

@rocketraccoon said:

Am I not being totally objective here?

You are taking the defence of a foreign invader come to "take what (she fantasises) is hers with fire and blood". I, for one, would like to see you burn.

Oooh. You're trolling. I was hoping for an actual discussion about a fantasy TV show with dragons and vagina smoke monsters but I realize I have erred.

I'm not. This is what she did, you just refuse to see it.

@Leo of Red Keep said:

@cswood said:

@Leo of Red Keep said:

@cswood said:

@rocketraccoon said:

Am I not being totally objective here?

You are taking the defence of a foreign invader come to "take what (she fantasises) is hers with fire and blood". I, for one, would like to see you burn.

Oooh. You're trolling. I was hoping for an actual discussion about a fantasy TV show with dragons and vagina smoke monsters but I realize I have erred.

I'm not. This is what she did, you just refuse to see it.

She's not technically a foreign invader if she's the last living heir to the deposed king. Dany's story is at least partly inspired by Henry VII who was in exile just like Dany. You just don't like her, which is fair, but don't pretend like she doesn't have a legit claim to the throne.

And frankly, how else does one retake a throne without fighting for it? She has dragons. She would be an idiot if she didn't use them. She could have used them to level Kings Landing but she hasn't. If Stannis had dragons and set KL on fire you'd think he was a boss.

The writers are following the "male over female" rule in inheritance because that is what the midievals did , not because they are corrupted by "deeply entrenched sexism". It's like assuming the writers support capital punishment because the characters do. Martin could have written a story where the titles are passed from mother to daughter instead of father to son, but then it wouldn't have resembled the midieval wars that he has been using as a model.

Sorry if I misunderstood your point. What I was talking about was the standard LAW of inheritance, which of course was often over-ridden in practice, particularly when the "rightful king" was weak and somebody else had a lot of power..

I thought this was a STAR TREK BOARD?