No, she made me love it even more!

She sure sounds like she's not a fan of Indian Jones. He makes the movie.. It would be a pretty boring doco iMO

Surely the Nazi's only found the Ark BECAUSE Indy found it first and they stole it from him. You can't say its inevitable that they would have found it without him.

So actually, Indy finding it was integral to them ultimately opening it and being destroyed!!

@Baxterrocky said:

Surely the Nazi's only found the Ark BECAUSE Indy found it first and they stole it from him. You can't say its inevitable that they would have found it without him.

So actually, Indy finding it was integral to them ultimately opening it and being destroyed!!

Also, the Americans end up with the Ark at the end of the movie, and I think Indy surviving on the island might have something to do with that.

It's true that Belloq's main way of finding relics was to follow Indy and let him find them for him. But they probably would've found the arc without him. Keep in mind that they looked in the wrong place only because they had an incomplete copy of the staff head. If not for Indy, Toht probably would've managed to get the original from Marion, so the Nazis might have gotten to the Ark sooner in that case.

But I agree with Flying's point. If Indy and Marion hadn't been present at the ritual, the Americans might have never heard about any of it. I assume Indy notified them of where to find the Ark, otherwise it might have stayed on that deserted island for quite a while, and who knows who would've found it.

He did save the girl's life in the bar in the mountains at the beginning.

Amy sounds like a philistine... not surprising if she's from that big bang theory show...

is the point of a movie, a journey or any art for at matter, simply the outcome?

The Ark, of course, is just the mcguffin. The adventure is the point of the movie. It's not as if Indiana knew he wouldn't get to the ark first.

First of all, I've never watched The Big Bang Theory, though somebody posted that clip a few years back and I thought it was quite funny.

Is she correct? Not exactly. She neglects to mention Indy's role in leading the Nazis to the ark. They were led in the wrong direction by Toht's stigmata. And it's possible that if Indy had not paid Marion the visit in Nepal at the beginning, they wouldn't have acquired any info from the medallion in the first place.

Of course, it is true that if Indy had not followed the Nazis after they stole the ark from him, they'd have endured the same fate. But I don't see that as a flaw in the story, since it's an irony the film more or less embraces. The entire series has a somewhat ambivalent attitude toward whether Indy's exploits in pursuit of ancient artifacts (which always turn out to have real supernatural or paranormal properties) are something to admire. It's no coincidence the film ends with the ark being stored away in an endless warehouse--part of the point was that he hadn't actually accomplished anything in the end.

I despise Big Bang Theory and will never watch it. I think it's braindead, pop culture humor that wouldn't even elicit a chuckle from its audience if not for the anachronistic laugh track that accompanies every flaccid joke. So no, nothing a character on that show opined would have any effect on my perception of the movie.

And while that quote you gave represents a smug bit of navel-gazing, the truth is that Indiana Jones became the audience at the end and was no longer the protagonist. He was there to act as a conduit for the audience to observe and react to the spectacle of the Nazi deaths. In fact, one could argue that if Indy hadn't intervened the Ark would likely have been taken directly to Berlin instead of to a remote island and Hitler, not Belloq, would have witnessed the opening. Then the ending would have been more like Inglourious Basterds instead of Raiders.

@wonder2wonder said:

In "The Big Bang Theory" Amy said:

"It was very entertaining despite the glaring story problem."

"All right. Indiana Jones plays no role in the outcome of the story. If he weren’t in the film, it would turn out exactly the same."

"No, I do, and if he weren’t in the movie, the Nazis would have still found the ark, taken it to the island, opened it up and all died, just like they did. Let me close that for ya."

She focusses here only on the object and not on the person. She states everything as a true irrefutable fact, while they remain questionable. According to her there are no other possibilities: the Nazis will always find the Ark, they will always take it to the island, they will always open it up and all will always die. If you believe she is all knowing and infallible then ­"it would turn out exactly the same". You can then enjoy this movie as a documentary with life actors.

I prefer to see this as a one big adventure movie with Indy as my daring guide and invincible hero.

What do you think?

But she is missing the point.

The story is a race. Indy is contracted by the US Government to get the Ark before the Nazi. And he did. The end.

Sure, the Nazi would find it eventually and all that... but that is the characteristics of a race for crying out laud. And if it was not a race, he was still contracted to get it before the Nazi... and he did, and possibly saved the world in the process. That TV show is dead wrong.

I would rather say that without him, the Nazi would have found it a bit later, found out about its deadly force by its destruction on the island and somehow later utilized this force in Berlin to win the war and kill all the good in the world... how is that for "playing no role" in the outcome????

This is an interesting discussion. I've seen a bit of and been amused by TBBT before. I find it pretty cool that this Amy character's dialogue spurred all of this.

@Kylopod said:

Is she correct? Not exactly. She neglects to mention Indy's role in leading the Nazis to the ark. They were led in the wrong direction by Toht's stigmata. And it's possible that if Indy had not paid Marion the visit in Nepal at the beginning, they wouldn't have acquired any info from the medallion in the first place.

This has been corrected before, but I guess you missed it. The Nazis only looked in the wrong place because Indy had the original medallion, so the Nazis only had a copy of the inscription from one side which was incomplete. If Indy hadn't taken the original medallion, the Nazis would have gotten it instead, so they would have had the complete inscription, and then looked in the RIGHT place.

@HAL 9010' said:

@wonder2wonder said:

In "The Big Bang Theory" Amy said:

"It was very entertaining despite the glaring story problem."

"All right. Indiana Jones plays no role in the outcome of the story. If he weren’t in the film, it would turn out exactly the same."

"No, I do, and if he weren’t in the movie, the Nazis would have still found the ark, taken it to the island, opened it up and all died, just like they did. Let me close that for ya."

She focusses here only on the object and not on the person. She states everything as a true irrefutable fact, while they remain questionable. According to her there are no other possibilities: the Nazis will always find the Ark, they will always take it to the island, they will always open it up and all will always die. If you believe she is all knowing and infallible then ­"it would turn out exactly the same". You can then enjoy this movie as a documentary with life actors.

I prefer to see this as a one big adventure movie with Indy as my daring guide and invincible hero.

What do you think?

But she is missing the point.

The story is a race. Indy is contracted by the US Government to get the Ark before the Nazi. And he did. The end.

Sure, the Nazi would find it eventually and all that... but that is the characteristics of a race for crying out laud. And if it was not a race, he was still contracted to get it before the Nazi... and he did, and possibly saved the world in the process. That TV show is dead wrong.

I would rather say that without him, the Nazi would have found it a bit later, found out about its deadly force by its destruction on the island and somehow later utilized this force in Berlin to win the war and kill all the good in the world... how is that for "playing no role" in the outcome????

I think it's... short-sighted, or something... to say that Indy "failed" just because his task was supposed to be to bring the Ark to the university/museum, which didn't end up happening. It was far more important that it not be used by the Nazis to take over the world, which he did play a huge role in achieving. (Although there seems to be some evidence that the Ark would not have allowed itself to be used that way, either. Otherwise why destroy the Nazis that opened it on the island? It wasn't just a Good Little Ark that follows orders. It recognized good vs evil on its own.)

@Knixon said:

@Kylopod said:

Is she correct? Not exactly. She neglects to mention Indy's role in leading the Nazis to the ark. They were led in the wrong direction by Toht's stigmata. And it's possible that if Indy had not paid Marion the visit in Nepal at the beginning, they wouldn't have acquired any info from the medallion in the first place.

This has been corrected before, but I guess you missed it. The Nazis only looked in the wrong place because Indy had the original medallion, so the Nazis only had a copy of the inscription from one side which was incomplete. If Indy hadn't taken the original medallion, the Nazis would have gotten it instead, so they would have had the complete inscription, and then looked in the RIGHT place

Yes and no. The Nazi followed Indy from America to Nepal. So if no Indy, likely no medallion. Or at least they would have found Marion and her medallion some other way and some time later.

However all the emdalion did was to speed up the process. They would have found it eventually anyway. They are digging up pretty much the whole Tanis burial site and they have a complete miniature map of the city and its tombs, so I am sure they would have succeeded sooner rather than later even without the medallion ... good thing then that’s indy snatched it from them in the end.