Yeah and how they explained he explains that this is like the 7th incarnation of Neo and they are STILL just imitating 1990s world? Nothing new and no attempt to even colonize the galaxy. You are right they are fkn DUMB.

@Invidia said:

The MACHINES are SMART ENOUGH, it's just they lack the ability to be CREATIVE and INNOVATIVE.

Because they also have a HIVE MENTALITY (like the BORG in STAR TREK).

And in order to be INNOVATIVE, one also needs INDIVIDUALITY, which is also DISCOURAGED inside of a COLLECTIVE situation.

But SATI is also something NEW and INNOVATIVE (because she was also BORN or CREATED without the OK or the ASSITANCE of the ARCHITECT).

And that's also the reason why she'd be HUNTED DOWN and ELIMINATED from the MATRIX without the protection of the ORACLE.

Because she's also considered to be a THREAT or an ANOMALY like NEO.

CHANGE or NEW SITUATIONS aren't welcomed in the MATRIX.

The ARCHITECT sees CHANGE or INNOVATION as a THREAT to him and to his POWER, CONTROL and AUTHORITY.

Yeah but even the Borg in ST were innovative enough and ambitious enough to get off their keysters and explore the galaxy. Even if you apply real world science to which there is no warp speed and you have to make due with the limitation of the speed of light maximum the machines have such a greater advantage as far as space exploration goes. They don't grow old, radiation is not an issue, and even if it takes them forever to get somewhere its not a big deal to them. But no, they rather sit on a burnt out planet and use humans as batteries? Silliness.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Matrix but that is just one aspect of the story I have to shrug my shoulders and go "meh, moving right along."

@movie_nazi said:

The more efficient way the machines could have produced energy was by far and away nuclear energy. Nuclear energy is by far more efficient and with they being machines and all radiation and nuclear waste is not even a concern for them. On top of that they should have been working on exploring and conquering the galaxy. I am well aware that without humans there is no matrix and thus no movie but this fact always bugged me.

It's a very silly premise for a movie. Talk about an inneficient way to produce power. How much energy has to go back into the system for producing food to keep the people alive?

Another problem. Why bother with the Matrix to keep people entertained when they were just being held in these cells being used as batteries. They could just let them go insane from sensory deprivation for their purposes. And the Matrix would have been a huge consumer of power. Between that and the energy cost of feeding the people, they'd have been using more energy than their system produced.

@Invidia said:

There's also the way SMITH PASSIONATELY HATES the HUMANS. His speech about them being nothing more than a VIRUS makes that fact clear enough for us. And the ARCHITECT obviously doesn't like them very much either, and resents the fact that they cause his so called PERFECT program to be run IMPERFECTLY.

So we also have to assume there's some REVENGE involved here where the MACHINES want to MISTREAT HUMANS the same way as they feel the HUMANS had MISTREATED them before the WAR.

And there's also the other problem where the MACHINES can't THINK as INNOVATIVELY as the HUMANS do.

All they can do is IMMITATE them, rather than come up with NEW IDEAS of their own for how to solve problems.

So without the HUMANS, all the machines would do is RUN the same programs over and over again which would also get BORING for them REALLY FAST.

So along comes the RATIONALIZATION for keeping them alive and the plan to USE them for BATTERIES.

But we also KNOW there's more to it than this.

Because all we keep seeing is the MACHINES IMMITATE the HUMANS and NEVER once come up with any NEW IDEAS of their own.

They ADAPT their IDEAS and make improvements to them, but they also never actually come up with any NEW or INNOVATIVE ideas of their own.

Sati creates the FAKE SUN at the end in HONOR of NEO, but again that's also still another IMMITATION situation and is not something that would have been done without NEO having been ASSIMILATED by the MACHINES.

So the bottom line is the MACHINES NEED the humans whether or not they're willing to ADMIT it or not.

And using them for BATTERIES is also an EXCUSE that they use for keeping them around rather than ADMITTING that they NEED THEM for their ability to be CREATIVE and INNOVATIVE.

So using HUMANS for BATTERIES is also a way to HUMILIATE them and keep from acknowledging to themselves that the HUMANS are SUPERIOR to them with their ability to THINK INNOVATIVELY.

And we also know this due to that SILLY NARCISSISTIC SPEECH that NEO gets from the SELF CENTERED SELF RIGHTEOUS ARCHITECT.

The machines created the matrix, so I don't buy this theory. The machines would have to be incredibly dumb to be relying on humans for power, yet like I said they are smart enough to design the Matrix.

Makes no sense.

That's one hell of a rationalization. I mean, something like nuclear power would be vastly superior to what they were doing.

How would they convince themselves that it made more sense to use human beings as a power source and then build this complex method of keeping them entertained when they only need their bodies to get their power. I mean, in order to rationalize, they would have to find some way to convince themselves that using humans as power and building the matrix makes sense. It doesn't.

@FlyingSaucersAreReal said:

That's one hell of a rationalization. I mean, something like nuclear power would be vastly superior to what they were doing.

How would they convince themselves that it made more sense to use human beings as a power source and then build this complex method of keeping them entertained when they only need their bodies to get their power. I mean, in order to rationalize, they would have to find some way to convince themselves that using humans as power and building the matrix makes sense. It doesn't.

I think what she is getting at is perhaps the machines still needed the humans for their creativity and innovation BUT if that were true then they would have let the humans go past the 1990s and come up with some new shit. I don't know, I 'm with you. I just think it was a terrible oversight by the Wachowskis. It would have been better if they said something that they kept humans alive for a different reason other than energy.

@Invidia said:

ra·tion·al·i·za·tion [ˌraSH(ə)n(ə)ləˈzāSH(ə)n, ˌraSH(ə)n(ə)līˈzāSH(ə)n]

NOUN

the action of attempting to explain or justify behavior or an attitude with logical reasons, even if these are not appropriate: "most people are prone to self-deceptive rationalization" · [more] the action of reorganizing a process or system so as to make it more logical and consistent: "the rationalization of accounting standards"

the process of converting a function or expression to a rational form.

In psychology and logic, rationalization or rationalisation (also known as making excuses) is a defense mechanism in which controversial behaviors or feelings are justified and explained in a seemingly rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable – or even admirable and superior – by plausible means. It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.

Wikipedia ·

USING HUMANS as BATTERIES is an EXCUSE the MACHINES use to KEEP from ADMITTING to themselves that the NEED them.

Because to ADMIT that you NEED something also means that you LACK SOMETHING, and are therefore NOT as PERFECT as the ARCHITECT likes to PRETEND he is.

So USING them as a POWER SOURCE is a DEFENSE MECHANISM or a way to keep from ADMITTING that the MACHINES NEED the HUMANS because they can't INNOVATE or CREATE anything NEW without them.

They're NOT just being KEPT ALIVE for a SOURCE of POWER.

The HUMANS are being KEPT ALIVE for their ability to be INNOVATIVE and CREATIVE.

Without the HUMANS the MACHINES would just keep RUNNING the same programs over and over again and lack the ABILITY to CHANGE anything in them.

Go back and read the last message posted which has also been EDITED and UPGRADED.

Look at the way it explains how they also still use that BLACK ROTARY DIAL PHONE in the MATRIX to jack back out of it because apparently the MACHINES can't even UPGRADE it to being a NEWER PUSH BUTTON model (much less a cell phone or an I PHONE).

I know what rationalize means.

In order to rationalize, you need some kind of explanation that attempts to be logical for what your doing, even if it doesn't really apply.

In this case building a massive system for entertaining people that you are holding in little pods in order to use as a power source. You'd be using a large amount of that power for something that's totally unnecessary.

How do you rationalize something that is so clearly and obviously counterproductive.

@movie_nazi said:

@FlyingSaucersAreReal said:

That's one hell of a rationalization. I mean, something like nuclear power would be vastly superior to what they were doing.

How would they convince themselves that it made more sense to use human beings as a power source and then build this complex method of keeping them entertained when they only need their bodies to get their power. I mean, in order to rationalize, they would have to find some way to convince themselves that using humans as power and building the matrix makes sense. It doesn't.

I think what she is getting at is perhaps the machines still needed the humans for their creativity and innovation BUT if that were true then they would have let the humans go past the 1990s and come up with some new shit.

Another good point. Since creativity is what they really are supposed to be keeping us around for, why keep us locked in the past like that?

Not to mention that if the machines could come up with somehting like the Matrix, they would be capable of invention and creativity, building on things that were begun by the humans and developing them themselves.

@Hobnobber said:

Why conquer the galaxy? As proof of us?

As when one asked a mountaineer "why climb Mt. Everest?" "Because it's there" . I mean, it sure beats sticking around on a burnt out planet.5

I think that the original explanation was that the human's brains were nodes or RAM/memory in a neural network.

@Invidia said:

@FlyingSaucersAreReal said:

Another good point. Since creativity is what they really are supposed to be keeping us around for, why keep us locked in the past like that?

Not to mention that if the machines could come up with somehting like the Matrix, they would be capable of invention and creativity, building on things that were begun by the humans and developing them themselves.

MACHINES usually also don't have FEELINGS.

That's why they CAN'T CREATE the way HUMANS DO.

BUT after PERSEPHONE KISSES NEO the FEELING of LOVE he has for TRINITY is ASSIMILATED into the MATRIX which leads to the CREATION of SATI.

But if EVERYONE was SET FREE that would also mean TOTAL CHAOS for the ARCHITECT.

And he also explains that to NEO when he says the FREEDOM of the ANOMALY sets up a CHAIN REACTION where all of the other PROGRAMS ASSIMILATE what the ANOMALY is thinking.

http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/The_Architect_(scene)

Architect: Hello Neo. Neo: Who are you? Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand and some you will not. Concurrently, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant. Neo: Why am I here? Architect: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts, I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously avoided, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here. Neo: You haven't answered my question. Architect: Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others. Neo: Others? How many? What others? Architect: The Matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next. In which case this is the sixth version. Neo: There are only two possible explanations. Either no one told me, or no one knows. Architect: Precisely. Are you were undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly is systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

And that's the reason why the MATRIX was SHUT DOWN and RELOADED again 6 TIMES.

Again, the MATRIX is only an IMMITATION of the HUMANS WORLD.

It's NOT anything NEW or CREATIVE.

It's like taking PHOTO copies of something.

It's merely a SIMULATION or a REPLICATION of something else that was previously created by the HUMANS (NOT by the MACHINES).

It's interesting that Neo has a copy of simulancra and simulation in his library when he first meets the people who initially bring him to see Trinity

I don't buy the humans as batteries thing either because would the energy output be entirely wasted on maintaining the Matrix?And would the surplus of energy(if any )be enough to power the machine world.I would have expected for the A.I. to come up with a more efficient manner of producing energy(heck Zion uses thermal energy)Building a large infrastructure to house your "batteries",building a huge infrastructure to control your "batteries"(The Matrix) seems like inefficient manner an rather unreliable source of energy especially if your "batteries" go wandering of and try the incite a revolt among the other"batteries".Also growing babies to serve as food for your "batteries" seems a rather clumsy manner for energy resources to keep your batteries alive in fact all the aforementioned makes me think using Humans only is a pain in the ass considering there are other more reliable energy resources at hand.

The real problem is efficiency - humans are not at all efficient machines - and the heat we produce is merely waste energy so most is lost in simply being alive. The machines would be better off burning the goo they feed the humans, (or using bioreactors.)

I believe in the original script the machines kept humans because they could not design any processors or storage as efficient as human brains - so we were more like SSDs / GPUs than batteries. This actually does make some sort of plausible sense, but producers felt that the audience wouldn't understand that.