@HAL 9010' said:

I find that there were more cool Black Panther scenes in CIVIL WAR, than there were cool Black Panther scenes in Black Panther the movie.... at least if we talk about fighting scenes.

Totally agree. All the BP scenes in Civil War were great. His fights in his own movie left a lot to be desired. He was even more royal in his demeanor in CW. His opening fight was sorta OK.

I haven't seen Black Panther yet but I believe you. From the trailer the fights look more cartooney. In Civil War he was vicious. The Russo Brothers are excellent at directing action.

@Damienracer said:

@JustinJackFlash said:

I haven't seen Black Panther yet but I believe you. From the trailer the fights look more cartooney. In Civil War he was viscous. The Russo Brothers are excellent at directing action.

Try actually watching the movie.

He isn't wrong. I loved the movie. The acting was phenomenal. The story was great. The villain was phenomenal. It was a very VERY good superhero movie. The action was not it's strong suit, making it a less than perfect movie, but that's okay. The closest the MCU has come to a perfect comic book movie is The Winter Soldier. It was pretty damn close.

@spreerod1538 said:

He isn't wrong. I loved the movie. The acting was phenomenal. The story was great. The villain was phenomenal. It was a very VERY good superhero movie. The action was not it's strong suit, making it a less than perfect movie, but that's okay.

I'm sure it's good and I'm sure I'll enjoy it. But as action goes, I do think the other Marvel filmmakers should take a leaf out of the Russo Brothers' book and keep the action feeling more real, physical, immediate and with more bite.

The closest the MCU has come to a perfect comic book movie is The Winter Soldier. It was pretty damn close.

I liked it a lot, but I prefer Civil War. Better story, deeper character development and even better action. But they are both top of the pile when it comes to MCU films.

They intentionally don't want the action and violence to be more real... These movies are for pre-teens and families with small children... Might as well show boobs and rear male nudity while you're at it... 😂

I was surprised that the waterfall fight was as violent as it was and not just CGI light sprinkles, but i suppose they couldn't get away with it given the setting...

@Renovatio said:

They intentionally don't want the action and violence to be more real...

You may be right. But both Civil War and Winter Soldier were big money makers. So I don't see it as in their interest to focus just on the family audience because I'm sure those family audiences went to see Civil War and Winter Soldier too. And the films are for adults as well as families. That's why they do so well. The amount of adults I speak to who love these films is overwhelming. We really are culturally saturated with them.

And Marvel must like the way the Russo Brothers work or they wouldn't have put them at the helm of both the next 2 Avengers films.

@JustinJackFlash said:

@Renovatio said:

They intentionally don't want the action and violence to be more real...

You may be right. But both Civil War and Winter Soldier were big money makers. So I don't see it as in their interest to focus just on the family audience because I'm sure those family audiences went to see Civil War and Winter Soldier too. And the films are for adults as well as families. That's why they do so well. The amount of adults I speak to who love these films is overwhelming. We really are culturally saturated with them.

And Marvel must like the way the Russo Brothers work or they wouldn't have put them at the helm of both the next 2 Avengers films.

Indeed. And I do not think it is unfair to judge a movie from ones own frame of reference plus of course how the source material is. Though, I cannot say I know the BP well in the comics but I am fairly certain its material has evolved like most comics, and so highlights extreme action and dare I say graphic violence quite a bit today. If they adjusted their storytelling to better fit an audience younger than those of for example Winter Soldier, I will say this harmed the result and from my point of view is a real shame.... especially now that we already have experienced him in CW in a more brutal and I think honest way.

@HAL 9010' said:

I will say this harmed the result and from my point of view is a real shame.... especially now that we already have experienced him in CW in a more brutal and I think honest way.

I even loved his arc in Civil War. Even though he was just a minor character his character arc was as satisfying as the protagonist of most films.

@JustinJackFlash said:

@Renovatio said:

They intentionally don't want the action and violence to be more real...

You may be right. But both Civil War and Winter Soldier were big money makers. So I don't see it as in their interest to focus just on the family audience because I'm sure those family audiences went to see Civil War and Winter Soldier too. And the films are for adults as well as families. That's why they do so well. The amount of adults I speak to who love these films is overwhelming. We really are culturally saturated with them.

And Marvel must like the way the Russo Brothers work or they wouldn't have put them at the helm of both the next 2 Avengers films.

I know that adults watch these movies, but they will watch whether the violence is cartoony and CGI, or otherwise...

Families will not take their children to see these movies if these heros start drawing blood, cracking skulls and breaking necks with bare hands...

I think it's clear that these movies try to skew towards a younger demographic, certainly when compared with superhero movies like the original Robocop, Batman Returns or the more violent PG13 action movies from the 80s, etc...

They want to cast the widest net, so to speak... Especially the valuable kids market...

@Damienracer said:

@Renovatio said:

They intentionally don't want the action and violence to be more real... These movies are for pre-teens and families with small children... Might as well show boobs and rear male nudity while you're at it... 😂

I was surprised that the waterfall fight was as violent as it was and not just CGI light sprinkles, but i suppose they couldn't get away with it given the setting...

Pre teens? And families with small children? You are one stupid fuckk. And if so why did you watch BP? You're clearly sterile so you must be a pre tit.

You're very sensitive about this aren't you?

Of course these are kids movies... Just as you'll find adults going to see Pixar CGI cartoons, you'll have adults see superhero movies... It doesn't mean they are not kids shows for families to share... They are...

I didn't mean to suggest that you were immature for watching these shows... However, you certainly are immature given your juvenile posting style and overly defensive swearing...

@Damienracer said:

@Renovatio said:

@Damienracer said:

@Renovatio said:

They intentionally don't want the action and violence to be more real... These movies are for pre-teens and families with small children... Might as well show boobs and rear male nudity while you're at it... 😂

I was surprised that the waterfall fight was as violent as it was and not just CGI light sprinkles, but i suppose they couldn't get away with it given the setting...

Pre teens? And families with small children? You are one stupid fuckk. And if so why did you watch BP? You're clearly sterile so you must be a pre tit.

You're very sensitive about this aren't you?

Of course these are kids movies... Just as you'll find adults going to see Pixar CGI cartoons, you'll have adults see superhero movies... It doesn't mean they are not kids shows for families to share... They are...

I didn't mean to suggest that you were immature for watching these shows... However, you certainly are immature given your juvenile posting style and overly defensive swearing...

You're an idiot. And a smug swine to boot.

Q.E.D. 😎

@Renovatio said:

Families will not take their children to see these movies if these heros start drawing blood, cracking skulls and breaking necks with bare hands...

I don't have those kind of expectations. I don't think either WS or CV had those elements in them. But it's more about the way they are shot. The sound effects, the choreography and sharp editing. And most importantly: the practical over CGI. The Russo Brothers are very good at making you feel every impact, every scrape, every crush. They pull off the incredible feat of making the fantastical look gritty and real.

It's OK to admit that the Russo brothers are better at directing action. The Winter Soldier and Civil War had great fight scenes and also maintained a light feel to suit the PG-13 rating. Neither film comes off as too dark to scare away children and both have some comedic elements to them. Ryan Coogler had previously directed a sports drama and a biographical drama. He was a little out of his element when it came to the big action spectacle and it showed. The final fight with Killmonger and T'Challa in the panther suits did look a little cartoony and the war between the tribes with the armored Rhinos looked awful in my opinion. It doesn't mean the black panther is a bad film I just hope they are able to fix this if they invite Coogler back to direct the sequel. From what I have read about the upcoming infinity war it might be the darkest film yet that will have a few major deaths.

@JustinJackFlash said:

@Renovatio said:

Families will not take their children to see these movies if these heros start drawing blood, cracking skulls and breaking necks with bare hands...

I don't have those kind of expectations. I don't think either WS or CV had those elements in them. But it's more about the way they are shot. The sound effects, the choreography and sharp editing. And most importantly: the practical over CGI. The Russo Brothers are very good at making you feel every impact, every scrape, every crush. They pull off the incredible feat of making the fantastical look gritty and real.

This sums up my opinion of "quality fights." It is not that I want blood or increased viciousness (though they have their value) but rather that I want what we get to be well done. Directors have been ruining fight sequences for decades now. When you watch the behind the scenes footage of Christian Bale training in the nascent Batman fighting style against multiple assailants you see an amazing fight. In the movie you get a bunch of blurry edits and zoomed in camera work that obscures the action. Many directors are trying too hard and don't know when they should be hands-off. And some directors have that ability to actually enhance the scene like the Russo Bros. A good fight scene doesn't even have to be an actual "good fight." Watch John Carpenter's They Live for an example of that claim.

@Horus Mazinga said:

This sums up my opinion of "quality fights." It is not that I want blood or increased viciousness (though they have their value) but rather that I want what we get to be well done. Directors have been ruining fight sequences for decades now. When you watch the behind the scenes footage of Christian Bale training in the nascent Batman fighting style against multiple assailants you see an amazing fight. In the movie you get a bunch of blurry edits and zoomed in camera work that obscures the action. Many directors are trying too hard and don't know when they should be hands-off. And some directors have that ability to actually enhance the scene like the Russo Bros. A good fight scene doesn't even have to be an actual "good fight." Watch John Carpenter's They Live for an example of that claim.

I concur.

I've always thought Nolan's fight scenes to be the weakest of his abilities. In the Batman films he argues that those scenes are shot to give the feeling of fear, presenting Batman as akin to a monster in a horror film. That's why he shoots them so we can't really see what's happening. And that may well be his intention but I don't think it comes across that well.