I pretty much agree. It pulls the film down. Batman Begins is even worse; Nolan doesn't even try to give you a decent look at the action in that one.

This is why I wince when I hear people say TDK is one of the greatest movies ever. The Arkham series video games do a better job of portraying the action even though it is cartoonish and over the top. To be honest I wasn't thrilled with the story either. It was OK but not brilliant. This is definitely one of those films that frequently make most people's top 10 list and I am not even sure if it would make my top 100.

The Dark Knight (2008) - 7 outta 10 stars

@movie_nazi said:

This is why I wince when I hear people say TDK is one of the greatest movies ever. The Arkham series video games do a better job of portraying the action even though it is cartoonish and over the top. To be honest I wasn't thrilled with the story either. It was OK but not brilliant. This is definitely one of those films that frequently make most people's top 10 list and I am not even sure if it would make my top 100.

The Dark Knight (2008) - 7 outta 10 stars

Hey, movie_nazi, I feel exactly the same way about that opinion. I feel like it kind of sets opinions against MCU films as films, despite the MCU giving us exciting action and decent acting from award-nominated actors reliably. I feel like it fuels the fire of the stupid Marvel vs. DC fan rivalry in some way. Me, I'd put Joker above The Dark Knight any day.

The difficult part about filming fight scenes with Batman that no one talks about is the weight and mobility of the costume. Dark Knight is the first live action Batman film where he can actually turn his head. Thing is when it comes to a martial arts fight scene is the people fighting in those films are not wearing anything that hinders their movement. Usually it is regular clothes which are light and allow flexibility. People will always direct me to the warehouse fight in Batman V Superman Dawn of Justice. That fight is no doubt flashy but thing is that fight was accomplished by using cgi in post production work.

The arms as well as cape were added later in post production. I am not saying someone is not allowed to have an opinion on the fights but as of now the only Arkham like fight scene live action was accomplished using cgi in post production. Also as much as that fight is flashy that would not work for a Nolan Batman film far too over the top. If you want the type of fights that would work for a Nolan Batman film check out the film Haywire. Even in the Burton films you can tell Batman moves rather clunky. In order for a fight scene to work you need three essential things. 1: Camera work. The camera needs to give us a clear view of the fight and not be too close up or too far away. 2: editing. Nothing is worse than when a film is edited to where there is a cut every second of the fight. Editing is necessary but do not over edit the fight. 3: Choreography. Once the other two are in place you need good choreography or it will stick out like a sore thumb.

@Tectash said:

The difficult part about filming fight scenes with Batman that no one talks about is the weight and mobility of the costume. Dark Knight is the first live action Batman film where he can actually turn his head. Thing is when it comes to a martial arts fight scene is the people fighting in those films are not wearing anything that hinders their movement. Usually it is regular clothes which are light and allow flexibility. People will always direct me to the warehouse fight in Batman V Superman Dawn of Justice. That fight is no doubt flashy but thing is that fight was accomplished by using cgi in post production work.

The arms as well as cape were added later in post production. I am not saying someone is not allowed to have an opinion on the fights but as of now the only Arkham like fight scene live action was accomplished using cgi in post production. Also as much as that fight is flashy that would not work for a Nolan Batman film far too over the top. If you want the type of fights that would work for a Nolan Batman film check out the film Haywire. Even in the Burton films you can tell Batman moves rather clunky. In order for a fight scene to work you need three essential things. 1: Camera work. The camera needs to give us a clear view of the fight and not be too close up or too far away. 2: editing. Nothing is worse than when a film is edited to where there is a cut every second of the fight. Editing is necessary but do not over edit the fight. 3: Choreography. Once the other two are in place you need good choreography or it will stick out like a sore thumb.

Need to use CGI? Sure whatever, make it happen. Batman is known as a martial artist. You can't have a good Batman flick without showing off his fighting skills, period. Even the wacky 60s TV show arguably had better fight scenes. Yes, I am well aware that they wore tights in that show and it is not comparable to the suit they are showing in theses films but I don't buy that it could not be done. Other comic books shows and movies have decent fight scenes so it is not beyond possible. A lot of money was dumped into the production of this film and I am sure it could have been pulled off. Nolan is an artistic storyteller and I don't think he had the directorial chops for these type of fight scenes which is why he could have brought someone on board who did.

The Dark Knight (2008) - 7 outta 10 stars

I never said it could not be done. I said people do not take into account that doing a fight scene for Batman is challenging. Nolan does his best to avoid using cgi. He likes to use it only when it is absolutely necessary. Is this to a detriment sure. I am aware other films have good fight scenes but as I said in what other films is the costume like Batman's? In terms of weight and mobility? Blade has stylized fights but the vest does not hinder the arms and the pants are simply leather. Captain America Winter Soldier also has stylized fights but look at the costume. It is rather light weight and is flexible. I actually think the fights could be better I agree. Thing is though a stylized fight like BVS, Blade or even Winter Soldier would not fit the tone Nolan was going for in his film. It is far too grounded for over stylized fights like that. Which is why I referenced the film Haywire. Those fights are realistic and excellently done.

I am not saying that the fight scenes need to be cartoonish or overly exaggerated to the point where it would ruin the film's tone. I am not even saying it should have had MORE fight scenes than what it had. Just a little style and pizzaz with the fight scenes it did have and Batman breaking a few bones here and there would have pushed this film over the top as far as a good Batman film is concerned. My rating would easily have been an 8 or possibly a 9 as the film has very little flaws (perhaps pacing) besides what I pointed out.

I still think it could have been pulled off without CGI but what do I know. I am just going by what I have seen in other films and do not have an insider perspective on the subject.

The Dark Knight (2008) - 7 outta 10 stars

@Tectash said:

Nolan does his best to avoid using cgi. He likes to use it only when it is absolutely necessary.

An admirable moral to adhere to. What gets me in the case of The Dark Knight is that while Nolan doesn't consider CGI necessary to enhance fight scenes, of all the places he could consider as necessary he chooses Twoface. He's perfectly happy to ruin a character by making him look like a cartoon.

@JustinJackFlash said:

@Tectash said:

Nolan does his best to avoid using cgi. He likes to use it only when it is absolutely necessary.

An admirable moral to adhere to. What gets me in the case of The Dark Knight is that while Nolan doesn't consider CGI necessary to enhance fight scenes, of all the places he could consider as necessary he chooses Twoface. He's perfectly happy to ruin a character by making him look like a cartoon.

Interesting topic, there. Can you imagine how much pain Harvey had to be in like that, and refusing pain medicine?

@CelluloidFan said:

@JustinJackFlash said:

@Tectash said:

Nolan does his best to avoid using cgi. He likes to use it only when it is absolutely necessary.

An admirable moral to adhere to. What gets me in the case of The Dark Knight is that while Nolan doesn't consider CGI necessary to enhance fight scenes, of all the places he could consider as necessary he chooses Twoface. He's perfectly happy to ruin a character by making him look like a cartoon.

Interesting topic, there. Can you imagine how much pain Harvey had to be in like that, and refusing pain medicine?

I'm sure it contributes to Two-Face's testiness. Not me man, I'm a total pussy. I would ask for the max dope allowed for a pinprick.

I am not disagreeing with your view on the fights. I am simply offering a perspective. To me Haywire is a film that has grounded realistic fight choreography. I think it can be done I just think it's challenging. I'm looking forward to seeing how Matt Reeves tackles his Batman fight scenes on his upcoming Batman film.

An admirable moral to adhere to. What gets me in the case of The Dark Knight is that while Nolan doesn't consider CGI necessary to enhance fight scenes, of all the places he could consider as necessary he chooses Twoface. He's perfectly happy to ruin a character by making him look like a cartoon.

I have to disagree. Did you prefer the look of two face in Batman Forever? I thought he gave Two Fave back his dignity and did him very well.

@Tectash said:

An admirable moral to adhere to. What gets me in the case of The Dark Knight is that while Nolan doesn't consider CGI necessary to enhance fight scenes, of all the places he could consider as necessary he chooses Twoface. He's perfectly happy to ruin a character by making him look like a cartoon.

Did you prefer the look of two face in Batman Forever?

God no. I didn't like either of them. But I had high hopes for Nolan doing Two Face. And while I thought he did a great job with Harvey Dent, when he became Two Face I was disappointed. I just couldn't fathom any reason to do it CGI (other than to make it family friendly). And was very surprised at Nolan. I was expecting Hellraiser style make up effects. And yeah, I was probably holding my hopes too high. But I still think you could do it practical in some way and get by with a 12 rating (or PG13 or whatever it was in America).

@JustinJackFlash said:

@Tectash said:

An admirable moral to adhere to. What gets me in the case of The Dark Knight is that while Nolan doesn't consider CGI necessary to enhance fight scenes, of all the places he could consider as necessary he chooses Twoface. He's perfectly happy to ruin a character by making him look like a cartoon.

Did you prefer the look of two face in Batman Forever?

God no. I didn't like either of them. But I had high hopes for Nolan doing Two Face. And while I thought he did a great job with Harvey Dent, when he became Two Face I was disappointed. I just couldn't fathom any reason to do it CGI (other than to make it family friendly). And was very surprised at Nolan. I was expecting Hellraiser style make up effects. And yeah, I was probably holding my hopes too high. But I still think you could do it practical in some way and get by with a 12 rating (or PG13 or whatever it was in America).

You totally could have made Two-Face's disfigurement family-friendly with practical makeup. The CGI for that was a mistake, I agree.

@Tectash said:

I am not disagreeing with your view on the fights. I am simply offering a perspective. To me Haywire is a film that has grounded realistic fight choreography. I think it can be done I just think it's challenging. I'm looking forward to seeing how Matt Reeves tackles his Batman fight scenes on his upcoming Batman film.

If by realistic you mean like how a fight goes down in real life then for cinematic purposes that would be boring. Someone mentioned the BvS flick and that scene where he takes out all those thugs was actually pretty good. I would point to the original The Transporter for fun and well-choreographed fight scenes.

Transporter Fight Scenes