Item: The Tragedy of Today
Language: en-US
Type of Problem: Incorrect_content
Extra Details: This film is known in English as The Perfect Game (currently listed as an alternative title). I can find no justification for calling it The Tragedy of Today.
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Reply by Banana
on студзень 5, 2019 at 10:50 PM
According to IMDb, Perfect Game is an informal (i.e. incorrect) title. The Tragedy of Today seems to be the English title used by Nikkatsu: https://jfdb.jp/en/title/7339. But, as far as I can tell, the film is no longer on their website. I trust the mod who made the edits though.
edit: Thanks for the clarification @Yukabacera !
Reply by Yukabacera
on студзень 5, 2019 at 11:11 PM
Just to clarify, yes, The Tragedy of Today is the real English title given to the movie by the production company and rights holders, Nikkatsu Corporation.
See the official DVD release sold with this title clearly prominent: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51QD1N6RGVL.jpg
"The Perfect Game" is, indeed, an alternate title used by the United States-based distributor The Criterion Collection on that now-gone and forgotten flash in the pan streaming website, Filmstruck. A perfectly valid alternate US title, but not the primary and real English title by any means.
Reply by CormacJones
on студзень 7, 2019 at 9:10 PM
From what I can tell this film is not distributed under the title The Tragedy of Today. This issue also arises with The Madness of Youth/Everything Goes Wrong (https://www.themoviedb.org/movie/206461-subete-ga-kurutteru?language=en-US). The Tragedy of Today and The Madness of Youth are titles that Japanese companies use not to distribute but to sell distribution rights to those who do distribute. The distributors — who are alone responsible for the movie's success in the market in which they are distributing — decide the distribution title. The people who watch the movie in English know it by the title the distributors give to it. Nobody knows the title the production company uses to sell its distribution rights to distributors. That's only for insiders. You link to an image with the production company's title. I cannot find any evidence that this is a distributed DVD, and not rather made for use by the production company in selling the rights to distributors. For example, it is not on Amazon, neither .com nor .co.uk nor .co.jp, and the only relevant result for the Google search "Toshio Masuda the tragedy of today" is the Letterboxd page sourced by TMDb.
Yukabacera, you seem to be exulting over the demise of the well-remembered streaming service FilmStruck, but do know that the Criterion Channel will be up and running independently of that service in just a few months. It is fair to assume The Perfect Game and Everything Goes Wrong, which they in all likelihood still have licensed, will be part of the service. I understand TMDb's policy is to use the title used for distribution in English. For these movies that distribution has occurred through the Criterion Channel (first on Hulu, then on FilmStruck, and next independently with support from WarnerMedia), and those titles have been The Perfect Game and Everything Goes Wrong. Those who watch these movies in English, those to whom the movies have been distributed, know them by these titles. Is TMDb an information service for the public to use? Or is it only for the limited few in the market for buying distribution rights?
Reply by Yukabacera
on студзень 8, 2019 at 3:32 AM
CormacJones, since you seem to have had some trouble finding this easily-available DVD online, especially on Amazon, let me assist you in that. Here are two different versions:
https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%AE%8C%E5%85%A8%E3%81%AA%E9%81%8A%E6%88%AF-DVD-%E5%B0%8F%E6%9E%97%E6%97%AD/dp/B00008DYR6/
https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%AE%8C%E5%85%A8%E3%81%AA%E9%81%8A%E6%88%AF-%E3%83%AC%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AB%E8%90%BD%E3%81%A1/dp/B009NPAYM2/
I can log into Amazon and purchase a copy for myself from anywhere in the world. Isn't the internet amazing? On the other hand, no matter how much I search for "The Perfect Game", I can't seem to find any sort of noteworthy release. I can find plenty of places where I can download a copy illegally, though.
I really don't see how titles given to films by fly-by-night, geographically limited streaming services are supposed to become worldwide, international English titles. I can't seem to make that logical jump. This is, after all, a Japanese film. Its availability on a US-based streaming service with English subtitles is great news for film fans in the US (and a limited number of other countries, I assume), but it's a bit irrelevant. All of this applies to The Madness of Youth (US title: Everything Goes Wrong) as well.
Reply by CormacJones
on студзень 8, 2019 at 2:43 PM
Sorry, Yukabacera, I did not find those search results because they are only possible when searching in Japanese, which seems to me not relevant to the discussion. Searches on that website for "The Tragedy of Today", the title in question — no one's questioning 完全な遊戯 — yield nothing. In fact, this does not appear to be an English-language release, licensed for an English-language territory, regardless if it can be purchased from one (provided one searches for it in Japanese).
I am not arguing that a streaming title would have priority over a properly distributed DVD title, much less a theatrical release, or as is often the case in Hong Kong, movies that have a chosen English title incorporated into the original title screen, for example. I am arguing that when streaming is the only licensed distribution in English, the English title used has priority. That is the title that is licensed to reach the public. The question of geography you raise is not relevant to this discussion; the problems therein involved affect all foreign language movies regardless of means of distribution. A French film released in theaters under different English titles in the UK and US has the same problem, and it is my understanding that TMDb resolves this question by using the title of whichever release was first, rightfully not prioritizing any one country. If you can show me a DVD licensed for distribution in Australia and New Zealand under an English title other than The Perfect Game, you could have an argument according to TMDb policies, which I would be forced to submit to — especially if that DVD release occurred before Criterion streamed it; I haven't seen a stated TMDb policy giving priority to DVDs over streaming regardless of time of release, but I wouldn't argue against it (I wish exceptions to the time of release rule could more easily be made). Look, I do not have perfect knowledge of these things, and I can easily imagine being out-argued in this matter. But that is not yet what I am seeing in your responses. More and more streaming licenses are going to be the primary and only mode of distribution, and TMDb will have to account for that. It has more to do with the licenses than the platforms you disdain. Criterion has licensed the distribution of these films. They have been streaming titles every year since 2008 regardless of platform (their full streaming catalog first with MUBI, then with Hulu Plus, then with FilmStruck, soon independently in partnership with WarnerMedia; and select titles with other services, as with Kanopy currently) and plan on continuing to do so. "Since 2008" is not "fly-by-night" relative to this discussion. In terms of naming rights, the issue of streaming platform is as relevant as which theater chain a movie is seen in. In both cases some other company possesses the distribution rights and reaches agreement with either a streaming platform or a movie theater chain like AMC, Regal, or Cinemark (three US examples) for purposes of exhibition. Streaming platforms come and go as the business is in flux, but streaming isn't going anywhere — just as theater chains come and go, as that business is in flux too. The theater business is still doing well, but if one of the two were in danger of not existing anymore, it would be theaters rather than streaming. I am not arguing theatrical releases shouldn't have the greatest priority. But we have to account for streaming distribution. It's distribution. (And the Japanese DVDs you link to are not.)
Reply by michaelhutchins
on чэрвень 5, 2023 at 2:04 PM
I totally agree with @CormacJones. The TMDB policy is clear. An editor is NOT supposed to be using the "Translated Title (English)" field to record the English translation of a non-English film's title, despite the way the field is worded. It is supposed to be the title that was first used when a film is translated into English, NOT the English translation of the non-English title, but the title that was used when the film was released in a dubbed or subtitled version. This film was titled THE PERFECT GAME when it was first distributed in English-speaking countries. By going through the database and "translating" Japanese titles into English, editors are doing great harm to the integrity of the database, and undermining its usefulness. I have made this same argument several times, with only partial success. There should be a consistent policy.
Reply by CormacJones
on чэрвень 5, 2023 at 9:37 PM
Oh, Michael Hutchins, you remind that it has been three and a half years since I gave up putting in the time and effort to help a company that employs people like Yukabacera as moderators. That I'm right on this issue is self-evident to anyone except those in power to do anything about it. This imbecility broke me.
Reply by michaelhutchins
on чэрвень 6, 2023 at 7:03 PM
@CormacJones Check out this discussion.
https://www.themoviedb.org/movie/307034/discuss/5f0a4c2fd100b6003808aeb1
Reply by CormacJones
on чэрвень 6, 2023 at 7:57 PM
Yes, TMDb is a trash site on account of their trash moderators. It'll only make you angry because they will not listen to reason, they have no shame, and there is no way to hold them accountable. It's not worth the grief; you have to let their product suck. Your only other option for improving your experience on Letterboxd is to take it up with Letterboxd. They have the ability to undo TMDb's horrendous moderation, on Letterboxd at least, if you can get through to them. And there you at least have a little leverage if you threaten to withhold your subscription money. I've gotten some action that way in the past. A reasonable argument and the threat of lost revenue can work there. Remember, Yukabacera is citing as an authority a Japanese company that does not distribute movies in English-language territories. That company licenses the movies to distributors, like Criterion, who then choose the distribution titles — you know, the only English-language titles that English speakers are ever familiar with on the consumer end. Letterboxd is a site for consumers, not for rights holders looking to license to distributors, so Letterboxd should listen. Good luck. I'm done doing free labor for these people.
Reply by lineker
on чэрвень 7, 2023 at 4:35 AM
Hi, the translated English title has now been fixed to go with the rules in the Contribution Bible. An official release is an official release. The length of the release, or the size of the release, has no impact.
@CormacJones I'm not happy with your comments, but if that's what you feel then there is nothing we can do. Please don't use that kind of language again or you will be banned. Closing topic.