SpiderFan, I take your point, but as you said, it's doughnuts and doorknobs.

I don't see a widespread comeback of concert films for adults, and any tween- or teenager-targeted concert film like Swift's isn't likely to steal audience share from more "grown-up" films.

Also, while I don't doubt a lot more crew goes into making a major, plot-driven feature film, the amount of "backstage" personnel that are required for a quality concert film is not nothing. It's not simply a few guys setting up some cameras for a concert and then going out for a smoke. My favorite concert film is Queensryche's "Operation: Livecrime" from 1991; rumor has it that it cost $1 million to make (33 years ago), and going by the end credits, it required a substantial crew.

Granted, that's no "Titanic", but it's not peanuts either. And, to my knowledge, it had no theatrical release-- so no competition to movies released in theaters --but it made a killing in home video (and later DVD) sales.

@northcoast said:

SpiderFan, I take your point, but as you said, it's doughnuts and doorknobs.

I don't see a widespread comeback of concert films for adults, and any tween- or teenager-targeted concert film like Swift's isn't likely to steal audience share from more "grown-up" films.

Also, while I don't doubt a lot more crew goes into making a major, plot-driven feature film, the amount of "backstage" personnel that are required for a quality concert film is not nothing. It's not simply a few guys setting up some cameras for a concert and then going out for a smoke. My favorite concert film is Queensryche's "Operation: Livecrime" from 1991; rumor has it that it cost $1 million to make (33 years ago), and going by the end credits, it required a substantial crew.

Granted, that's no "Titanic", but it's not peanuts either. And, to my knowledge, it had no theatrical release-- so no competition to movies released in theaters --but it made a killing in home video (and later DVD) sales.

I've been meaning to watch Operation Livecrime for ages. You're right, good concert/performance vids are an art form unto themselves. Some of the production techniques are groundbreaking and deserve recognition.

My fave is Yes: 9012Live (1983) which was the directorial debut of a young kid named Steven Soderbergh! It was actually groundbreaking for the 80s, blending the show with old film footage, animation and pretty cool fx considering the year. A lot of highly respected filmmakers got their start doing concert & music videos (David Fincher, Spike Jonze, Gus Van Sant, Michel Gondry, Wim Wenders) so we can't write off concert vids as insignificant to cinema.

I haven't seen the Eras Tour but I'm kinda curious. It's gotta be one of the biggest concert productions of the decade so it must be special.

First off: I'm not a Swifty. I'm only familiar with one of her songs because it was featured in an episode of "The Magicians".

I have watched concert videos from bands I do like (none of which would ever get a cinema release!) and occasionally pay for them to support the band. If I was a fan of Ms Swift I can see the appeal of going to see the film at the cinema: £10 + a short drive vs £100 + long train journey + accommodation. I don't think she (or her people) are stupid either. The "only at weekends" release has worked so well that I notice Beyoncé's concert movie copied the idea. As for "cashgrab" that's the reason behind most movies!

@northcoast said:

SpiderFan, I take your point, but as you said, it's doughnuts and doorknobs.

I don't see a widespread comeback of concert films for adults, and any tween- or teenager-targeted concert film like Swift's isn't likely to steal audience share from more "grown-up" films.

Also, while I don't doubt a lot more crew goes into making a major, plot-driven feature film, the amount of "backstage" personnel that are required for a quality concert film is not nothing. It's not simply a few guys setting up some cameras for a concert and then going out for a smoke. My favorite concert film is Queensryche's "Operation: Livecrime" from 1991; rumor has it that it cost $1 million to make (33 years ago), and going by the end credits, it required a substantial crew.

Granted, that's no "Titanic", but it's not peanuts either. And, to my knowledge, it had no theatrical release-- so no competition to movies released in theaters --but it made a killing in home video (and later DVD) sales.

DVD ain't the biggest problem, even if some of them play in theater, like the upcoming Queen IMAX thing, that's all dope, but if concert films blow up too much and become more of a hype than all the big blockbusters where so much passion, craftmanship and work went in...

@M.LeMarchand said:

First off: I'm not a Swifty. I'm only familiar with one of her songs because it was featured in an episode of "The Magicians".

I have watched concert videos from bands I do like (none of which would ever get a cinema release!) and occasionally pay for them to support the band. If I was a fan of Ms Swift I can see the appeal of going to see the film at the cinema: £10 + a short drive vs £100 + long train journey + accommodation. I don't think she (or her people) are stupid either. The "only at weekends" release has worked so well that I notice Beyoncé's concert movie copied the idea. As for "cashgrab" that's the reason behind most movies!

Off course but the way it blew up is where's the bottleneck. The fact they're listed as actual films is also where the bottleneck is.

@rooprect said:

I've been meaning to watch Operation Livecrime for ages. You're right, good concert/performance vids are an art form unto themselves. Some of the production techniques are groundbreaking and deserve recognition.

You should check it out. It's more like a play among the five members of the band as they perform the 15 songs of the concept album. And what more compelling theme than an attack on State and Church? And a love affair between a manipulated junkie and a tortured nun? Pamela Moore makes an appearance at one point and does a duet with Geoff Tate. Laser lights everywhere and a hologram finale. I saw the show live (not the actual one filmed for the tape/disc, but the same tour) during the Building Empires tour back in '91. I didn't/don't agree with all of it, but it sure wasn't boring. And I'll never forget it.

My fave is Yes: 9012Live (1983) which was the directorial debut of a young kid named Steven Soderbergh! It was actually groundbreaking for the 80s, blending the show with old film footage, animation and pretty cool fx considering the year. A lot of highly respected filmmakers got their start doing concert & music videos (David Fincher, Spike Jonze, Gus Van Sant, Michel Gondry, Wim Wenders) so we can't write off concert vids as insignificant to cinema.

Cool! And I agree-- we can't simply disregard the talent behind concert films.

I haven't seen the Eras Tour but I'm kinda curious. It's gotta be one of the biggest concert productions of the decade so it must be special.

I haven't seen it either, and have no plans to, but I respect how Swift has gone about it: Only showing the film on Fridays/Saturdays/Sundays, so that her young fans won't have to miss out on seeing it on a school night; and only charging $19.89 (or less), which would normally be expensive for a movie ticket, but as you said, much cheaper than shelling out hundreds for a concert ticket.

@northcoast said:

@rooprect said:

I've been meaning to watch Operation Livecrime for ages. You're right, good concert/performance vids are an art form unto themselves. Some of the production techniques are groundbreaking and deserve recognition.

You should check it out. It's more like a play among the five members of the band as they perform the 15 songs of the concept album. And what more compelling theme than an attack on State and Church? And a love affair between a manipulated junkie and a tortured nun? Pamela Moore makes an appearance at one point and does a duet with Geoff Tate. Laser lights everywhere and a hologram finale. I saw the show live (not the actual one filmed for the tape/disc, but the same tour) during the Building Empires tour back in '91. I didn't/don't agree with all of it, but it sure wasn't boring. And I'll never forget it.

I'm sold! Currently on ebay looking for a cheap copy. (gah... cheapest one is $22.50 past my pain tolerance but I'll set my alerts)

I really miss concept albums like that: when bands would tell stories rather than scramble for 4 min radio friendly hits all the time. I guess it died out for that reason - especially when the digital/download age came, concept albums just couldn't compete commercially with hit singles. Queensryche may have been one of the last bands to do it, so I'm glad they made it a big production. That must've been insane to catch them live. I missed out on the era of rock bands doing huge stadium tours like that. I caught Yes at the House of Blues in the late 90s but that's not the same thing.

@rooprect said:

I really miss concept albums like that: when bands would tell stories rather than scramble for 4 min radio friendly hits all the time. I guess it died out for that reason - especially when the digital/download age came, concept albums just couldn't compete commercially with hit singles. Queensryche may have been one of the last bands to do it, so I'm glad they made it a big production. That must've been insane to catch them live. I missed out on the era of rock bands doing huge stadium tours like that. I caught Yes at the House of Blues in the late 90s but that's not the same thing.

I'd argue that the "concept album" was always a bit of a niche thing. If you listen to a "decade" radio channel it's not like those sort of songs get played with the exception of Bohemian Rhapsody, nor did most of the chart-topping bands at the time feel the need to release concept albums.

Rock bands still do stadium tours if they have the pull to fill a stadium. Just checked the Foo Fighters (I'm not a fan, but they were the first likely one to spring to mind as I saw "Studio 666" recently) and the UK (where I'm from) leg of their tour appears to be stadiums only. Or did you mean tours similar to the Queensrÿche one you mentioned? If the latter, Jeff Wayne's "War of the Worlds" still packs 'em in over here.

I'd even go as far as to argue that the "concept album" isn't dead. Out of the bands I like, Abney Park recently released "The Giants Of Iron and Steam" a full-on musical. Apparently it was supposed to be a big stage show that fell through. It's far from their best work or even that good IMHO, admittedly. Thinking about it, often steampunk flavoured music/bands feature an over-arching concept. Professor Elemental's Apequest, for instance. Moving away from steampunk, Within Temptation did much more of a concept album with 2011's "The Unforgiving" and Mono Inc's 2020 "The Book of Fire" is available with a series of linked videos telling the story and an "earbook" if your German is up to it. Although they're quite a "theatrical" band, I doubt the accompanying tour went to the lengths Queensrÿche did. They'd probably love to do that but, with only a quarter of a million Spotify listeners (Queensrÿche still have over a million), I don't think they can afford it.

Heading back to the original post(!), filmed concerts aren't a new thing. Woodstock, Madonna's "Truth or Dare", Talking Heads' "Stop Making Sense", Prince's "Sign O' the Times", Led Zep's "The Song Remains the Same" and more all played theatrically, did fairly well, and didn't destroy "normal" films.

@M.LeMarchand said:

@rooprect said:

I really miss concept albums like that: when bands would tell stories rather than scramble for 4 min radio friendly hits all the time. I guess it died out for that reason - especially when the digital/download age came, concept albums just couldn't compete commercially with hit singles. Queensryche may have been one of the last bands to do it, so I'm glad they made it a big production. That must've been insane to catch them live. I missed out on the era of rock bands doing huge stadium tours like that. I caught Yes at the House of Blues in the late 90s but that's not the same thing.

I'd argue that the "concept album" was always a bit of a niche thing. If you listen to a "decade" radio channel it's not like those sort of songs get played with the exception of Bohemian Rhapsody, nor did most of the chart-topping bands at the time feel the need to release concept albums.

Rock bands still do stadium tours if they have the pull to fill a stadium. Just checked the Foo Fighters (I'm not a fan, but they were the first likely one to spring to mind as I saw "Studio 666" recently) and the UK (where I'm from) leg of their tour appears to be stadiums only. Or did you mean tours similar to the Queensrÿche one you mentioned? If the latter, Jeff Wayne's "War of the Worlds" still packs 'em in over here.

I'd even go as far as to argue that the "concept album" isn't dead. Out of the bands I like, Abney Park recently released "The Giants Of Iron and Steam" a full-on musical. Apparently it was supposed to be a big stage show that fell through. It's far from their best work or even that good IMHO, admittedly. Thinking about it, often steampunk flavoured music/bands feature an over-arching concept. Professor Elemental's Apequest, for instance. Moving away from steampunk, Within Temptation did much more of a concept album with 2011's "The Unforgiving" and Mono Inc's 2020 "The Book of Fire" is available with a series of linked videos telling the story and an "earbook" if your German is up to it. Although they're quite a "theatrical" band, I doubt the accompanying tour went to the lengths Queensrÿche did. They'd probably love to do that but, with only a quarter of a million Spotify listeners (Queensrÿche still have over a million), I don't think they can afford it.

Heading back to the original post(!), filmed concerts aren't a new thing. Woodstock, Madonna's "Truth or Dare", Talking Heads' "Stop Making Sense", Prince's "Sign O' the Times", Led Zep's "The Song Remains the Same" and more all played theatrically, did fairly well, and didn't destroy "normal" films.

Cool, thanks for the suggestions. I admit my statement that the concept album is dead was based on my lack of familiarity with the latest bands. And yes these kinds of albums were always a niche thing, but the big difference is that it was powerful niche. Even if these albums never got radio airplay in the 70s-80s, you'd have to be living in a cave to be unaware of Pink Floyd The Wall, The Who Tommy, Genesis Lamb Lies Down, Rush 2112, and of course the one that successfully bridged top 40 radio: Bowie Ziggy Stardust.

Beyond profits and popularity though, I think bands back then were driven by the art form over the industry, and the attitude became contagious (even Sinatra released a triple concept album called Past/Present/Future). I recently watched a documentary about Rush 2112 where they said the record label was going to dump the band, based on poor sales of their prior album, and told the band they can do 1 last album if it's radio friendly. The band said sure and promptly did the opposite, releasing one of the most memorable concept albums with zero radio friendly tunes!

I'm sure the idea is alive & kicking still, but I don't think it'll ever dominate the rock medium as much as it did back in those days, the days of the supergroup who did whatever they wanted and fu to the bean counters. 🤘🤟

PS Agreed, concert films will never hurt dramatic films. People are smart enough to know they're 2 different things entirely.

I've seen the "Sign O' the Times" movie, and I must say, it shows the Purple One in TOP form.

May he be at peace.

@M.LeMarchand said:

I'd even go as far as to argue that the "concept album" isn't dead. Out of the bands I like, Abney Park recently released "The Giants Of Iron and Steam" a full-on musical. Apparently it was supposed to be a big stage show that fell through. It's far from their best work or even that good IMHO, admittedly. Thinking about it, often steampunk flavoured music/bands feature an over-arching concept. Professor Elemental's Apequest, for instance. Moving away from steampunk, Within Temptation did much more of a concept album with 2011's "The Unforgiving" and Mono Inc's 2020 "The Book of Fire" is available with a series of linked videos telling the story and an "earbook" if your German is up to it. Although they're quite a "theatrical" band, I doubt the accompanying tour went to the lengths Queensrÿche did. They'd probably love to do that but, with only a quarter of a million Spotify listeners (Queensrÿche still have over a million), I don't think they can afford it.

As a musicologist, I'd be inclined to agree. George Clinton's R&B band Parliament put out what I'd maybe call a "loose concept album" in '18, Medicaid Fraud Dogg, that connects many threads for them in a clever near summation.

@Rocky_Sullivan said:

@M.LeMarchand said:

I'd even go as far as to argue that the "concept album" isn't dead. Out of the bands I like, Abney Park recently released "The Giants Of Iron and Steam" a full-on musical. Apparently it was supposed to be a big stage show that fell through. It's far from their best work or even that good IMHO, admittedly. Thinking about it, often steampunk flavoured music/bands feature an over-arching concept. Professor Elemental's Apequest, for instance. Moving away from steampunk, Within Temptation did much more of a concept album with 2011's "The Unforgiving" and Mono Inc's 2020 "The Book of Fire" is available with a series of linked videos telling the story and an "earbook" if your German is up to it. Although they're quite a "theatrical" band, I doubt the accompanying tour went to the lengths Queensrÿche did. They'd probably love to do that but, with only a quarter of a million Spotify listeners (Queensrÿche still have over a million), I don't think they can afford it.

As a musicologist, I'd be inclined to agree. George Clinton's R&B band Parliament put out what I'd maybe call a "loose concept album" in '18, Medicaid Fraud Dogg, that connects many threads for them in a clever near summation.

Could be we’re all defining “concept album” differently. Technically each of Adele’s albums, or even Taylor Swift’s “Red” could be considered concept albums since each album was a snapshot of a very specific year or event in the singer’s life (before you say that’s a stretch, recall Genesis “Duke” was a fantastic concept album based on Phil Collins’ nasty divorce and the feelings he went through).

But I’m sorta sticking to @northcoast ‘s original example of Operation: Mindcrime/Livecrime which you might call a rock opera except that I don’t care for that label because it has taken on pretentious connotations.

If we’re talking about concept albums like that, or like The Wall, 2112, or Genesis Duke, which feature a specific central character whom we follow through an epic journey, there really haven’t been many (well known ones) after the 80s ended.

PS The great Bowie notwithstanding. He was doing concept/rock operas up til the end.

@rooprect said:

@Rocky_Sullivan said:

@M.LeMarchand said:

I'd even go as far as to argue that the "concept album" isn't dead. Out of the bands I like, Abney Park recently released "The Giants Of Iron and Steam" a full-on musical. Apparently it was supposed to be a big stage show that fell through. It's far from their best work or even that good IMHO, admittedly. Thinking about it, often steampunk flavoured music/bands feature an over-arching concept. Professor Elemental's Apequest, for instance. Moving away from steampunk, Within Temptation did much more of a concept album with 2011's "The Unforgiving" and Mono Inc's 2020 "The Book of Fire" is available with a series of linked videos telling the story and an "earbook" if your German is up to it. Although they're quite a "theatrical" band, I doubt the accompanying tour went to the lengths Queensrÿche did. They'd probably love to do that but, with only a quarter of a million Spotify listeners (Queensrÿche still have over a million), I don't think they can afford it.

As a musicologist, I'd be inclined to agree. George Clinton's R&B band Parliament put out what I'd maybe call a "loose concept album" in '18, Medicaid Fraud Dogg, that connects many threads for them in a clever near summation.

Could be we’re all defining “concept album” differently. Technically each of Adele’s albums, or even Taylor Swift’s “Red” could be considered concept albums since each album was a snapshot of a very specific year or event in the singer’s life (before you say that’s a stretch, recall Genesis “Duke” was a fantastic concept album based on Phil Collins’ nasty divorce and the feelings he went through).

But I’m sorta sticking to @northcoast ‘s original example of Operation: Mindcrime/Livecrime which you might call a rock opera except that I don’t care for that label because it has taken on pretentious connotations.

If we’re talking about concept albums like that, or like The Wall, 2112, or Genesis Duke, which feature a specific central character whom we follow through an epic journey, there really haven’t been many (well known ones) after the 80s ended.

PS The great Bowie notwithstanding. He was doing concept/rock operas up til the end.

I expected the discussion to take such a direction after posting my post. That's why I called MFD a "loose" concept album. The term is known in critical parlance.

Peace

@rooprect said:

Could be we’re all defining “concept album” differently. Technically each of Adele’s albums, or even Taylor Swift’s “Red” could be considered concept albums since each album was a snapshot of a very specific year or event in the singer’s life (before you say that’s a stretch, recall Genesis “Duke” was a fantastic concept album based on Phil Collins’ nasty divorce and the feelings he went through).

But I’m sorta sticking to @northcoast ‘s original example of Operation: Mindcrime/Livecrime which you might call a rock opera except that I don’t care for that label because it has taken on pretentious connotations.

I reckon the four I mentioned are all "proper" ones, though the musical styles aren't prog rock.

The Abney Park one is a full-on "steampunk opera" https://www.abneypark.com/setting.html . As frontman "Captain" Robert Brown has a beef with Spotify/streaming, it's not easy to find unless you pay - and, even as a fan, I was disappointed.

"Apequest" follows the Professor's quest through time and space to find his Simian butler. After he's played his theme music. If you listen to this there is an obvious story through the album, which is on Spotify if you don't mind Chap Rap.

"The Unforgiving" and "The Book of Fire" both sound like "normal" albums but the ancillary material definitely reveals the "concept", which is probably what the sleeve notes would do back in the day. The "story" vids for both can be found on YouTube, and the "earbook" for the latter is on Spotify (in German). Both albums are on Spotify with most, if not all, tracks on YouTube and are more accessible than the other two.

@M.LeMarchand said:

@rooprect said:

Could be we’re all defining “concept album” differently. Technically each of Adele’s albums, or even Taylor Swift’s “Red” could be considered concept albums since each album was a snapshot of a very specific year or event in the singer’s life (before you say that’s a stretch, recall Genesis “Duke” was a fantastic concept album based on Phil Collins’ nasty divorce and the feelings he went through).

But I’m sorta sticking to @northcoast ‘s original example of Operation: Mindcrime/Livecrime which you might call a rock opera except that I don’t care for that label because it has taken on pretentious connotations.

I reckon the four I mentioned are all "proper" ones, though the musical styles aren't prog rock.

The Abney Park one is a full-on "steampunk opera" https://www.abneypark.com/setting.html . As frontman "Captain" Robert Brown has a beef with Spotify/streaming, it's not easy to find unless you pay - and, even as a fan, I was disappointed.

"Apequest" follows the Professor's quest through time and space to find his Simian butler. After he's played his theme music. If you listen to this there is an obvious story through the album, which is on Spotify if you don't mind Chap Rap.

"The Unforgiving" and "The Book of Fire" both sound like "normal" albums but the ancillary material definitely reveals the "concept", which is probably what the sleeve notes would do back in the day. The "story" vids for both can be found on YouTube, and the "earbook" for the latter is on Spotify (in German). Both albums are on Spotify with most, if not all, tracks on YouTube and are more accessible than the other two.

Wow your description & the Abney Park page really got me curious. To me it doesn't necessarily have to be prog; I'm drawn by the idea of blending music & story. It's basically cinema except coming from the other direction (music) rather than tacking music on as an afterthought.

Yaknow this thread made me google the state of concept albums today, and according to wikipedia there's been a recent comeback. That would be really cool to see. Even getting back to the subject of this thread, Taylor Swift, if she ever went full in that direction as she has flirted with on albums like "Red" and her most recent one "Midnights" (wikipedia: "Swift conceived it as a concept album about nocturnal ruminations inspired by her sleepless nights") she could absolutely reboot the format. She is better poised than any other artist to influence young musicians today.