I checked the link you provided wonder2wonder and I was sorry to read that the actor portraying Adar will be recast.
I think Elrond and the Dwarf had a lot of chemistry. I don’t understand why Elrond was given such big elf ears though. It took me a couple of episodes to stop staring at them.
The actor cast as the High King Gil-Galad is perfect.
Arondir is another favourite of mine.
One of the scenes that really impressed me was in episode one as the ship entered Valinor.
I wonder if Glorfindel or Thranduil will appear at some stage , they are my favorite Tolkien characters.
One of the scenes that really impressed me was in episode one as the ship entered Valinor.
That was a beautiful scene.
I wonder if Glorfindel or Thranduil will appear at some stage , they are my favorite Tolkien characters.
Season 1 of the series is mostly set during SA 1500-1701 of the Second Age (SA 1- 3441). The "Lord of the Rings" and "THe Hobbit" movies are in the Third Age, when Glorfindel and Thranduil appear.
But I won't be surprised if they do appear in the series, as the writers, as usual, have decided to ignore the timeline and canon. There are a lot of changes - including retcons of canon, new characters and changes to existing ones - when compared to the books. It's like seeing an alternate time line: hundreds of years between events compressed in just a couple of years, characters who shouldn't be there at that time or place, or even exist.
For example:
Gandalf was introduced in the series, while there were other wizards. Galadriel became an action hero and a leader of armies. Mithril is more special in the series than what was described in the books. The last one was that the three Elven rings were made first in the television series, while in the book they were made last, after the Seven for the Dwarf-lords and Nine for Mortal Men. Sauron was not involved with their creation and did not know - he might have suspected - of their existence in the books. Let's hope that in the television series these Elven rings and the other ones aren't going to be used the way superheroes - e.g. Green Lantern - use them.
I watched The Hobbit two years ago ... I love the lore but I have no inclination to read the books ...maybe it turned out for the best seeing you tell me the series has thrown canon out of the window. Figures.
Just like the writers on Strange New World.. that really pissed me off, so I understand the frustration of the die-hard fans of Tolkien.
I have never seen Green Lantern , not even the trailer ... I saw the first three Lord of the Rings films about 10 years ago and I thought the Rings were all made by Sauron ...the Rings were evil and corrupted those that wore them and in the end the owners became minions of Sauron.
The two trees that were destroyed in Valinor .. that evil force was defeated eventually .... has it come back now as Sauron? Or are those two evil forces two different entities. ?
I watched The Hobbit two years ago ... I love the lore but I have no inclination to read the books ...maybe it turned out for the best seeing you tell me the series has thrown canon out of the window. Figures.
@sunshine62 Ciao.
The books are wonderful to read, but I can understand that it is not for everyone.
I have never seen Green Lantern , not even the trailer ... I saw the first three Lord of the Rings films about 10 years ago and I thought the Rings were all made by Sauron ...the Rings were evil and corrupted those that wore them and in the end the owners became minions of Sauron.
Around SA 1500 Sauron helped the Elven smiths in Eregion to forge the nine rings for Mortal Men and the seven rings for the Dwarf-lords. Later in SA 1590 when Celebrimbor was alone, he made the three rings for the Elven-kings. Finally, around SA 1600, Sauron made the 'One Ring to rule them all' in Mount Doom (Mordor).
The two trees that were destroyed in Valinor .. that evil force was defeated eventually .... has it come back now as Sauron? Or are those two evil forces two different entities. ?
The 'Two Trees of Valinor' (Telperion and Laurelin) were destroyed in the First Age (Years of the Trees) by the first Dark Lord Morgoth (fka Melkor; he was one of the fifteen Ainur, who were named Valar when they entered the world (Arda)).
Sauron was a Maia, who was Morgoth's second-in-command in the First Age (Years of the Sun). After the defeat of Morgoth, he fled Middle-Earth and hid for centuries. He returned in the Second Age (SA 500) and began to slowly acquire power to become the second Dark Lord.
The 'Two Trees of Valinor' (Telperion and Laurelin) were destroyed in the First Age (Years of the Trees) by the first Dark Lord Morgoth (fka Melkor; he was one of the fifteen Ainur, who were named Valar when they entered the world (Arda)).
I really wish we could get Ungoliant and the silmarils in live action.
The 'Two Trees of Valinor' (Telperion and Laurelin) were destroyed in the First Age (Years of the Trees) by the first Dark Lord Morgoth (fka Melkor; he was one of the fifteen Ainur, who were named Valar when they entered the world (Arda)).
I really wish we could get Ungoliant and the silmarils in live action.
Ungoliant died and the Silmarils were scattered (sky, earth and sea)
in the First Age (books), but who knows the writers might show flashbacks. Galadriel was born in Y.T. 1362, the 'Two Trees' were destroyed in Y.T. 1495. So if the writers want to be creative, they could have her, Fëanor, and her brother there when Morgoth and Ungoliant are destroying the 'Two Trees'.
First off, sorry for the late reply wonder2wonder.
The books are wonderful to read, but I can understand that it is not for everyone.
The truth is I'm not a big reader so it has nothing to do with the theme.
Around SA 1500 Sauron helped the Elven smiths in Eregion to forge the nine rings for Mortal Men and the seven rings for the Dwarf-lords. Later in SA 1590 when Celebrimbor was alone, he made the three rings for the Elven-kings. Finally, around SA 1600, Sauron made the 'One Ring to rule them all' in Mount Doom (Mordor).
In the finale we see Celebrimbor making the three rings before all the others...that's no small change. Why did he make the three rings in the book?
In the series,if I'm not mistaken, he made them to save the tree that was dying due to the return of evil. What tree is that ? What does it represent?
The 'Two Trees of Valinor' (Telperion and Laurelin) were destroyed in the First Age (Years of the Trees) by the first Dark Lord Morgoth (fka Melkor; he was one of the fifteen Ainur, who were named Valar when they entered the world (Arda)).
Sauron was a Maia, who was Morgoth's second-in-command in the First Age (Years of the Sun). After the defeat of Morgoth, he fled Middle-Earth and hid for centuries. He returned in the Second Age (SA 500) and began to slowly acquire power to become the second Dark Lord
So Morgoth aka Melkor was a valar.... a god that became evil. And Sauron, his second in command, was a Maia (like Gandolf ) a very potent wizard who returned to destroy the elves and Middle Earth.
Did the writers replace the Hobbits and create the Harfoots?
Did the production explain why the elves have short hair? Only Gil-galad has beautiful dark long hair.
First off, sorry for the late reply wonder2wonder.
@sunshine62 Ciao. I hope you're doing fine.
The books are wonderful to read, but I can understand that it is not for everyone.
The truth is I'm not a big reader so it has nothing to do with the theme.
I understand that too, as it's been a long time since I myself have read any new books.
Around SA 1500 Sauron helped the Elven smiths in Eregion to forge the nine rings for Mortal Men and the seven rings for the Dwarf-lords. Later in SA 1590 when Celebrimbor was alone, he made the three rings for the Elven-kings. Finally, around SA 1600, Sauron made the 'One Ring to rule them all' in Mount Doom (Mordor).
In the finale we see Celebrimbor making the three rings before all the others...that's no small change. Why did he make the three rings in the book?
When Arda and Middle-Earth were created, it was like Valinor, a Garden of Eden, but Morgoth 'poisoned' this and everything then began to decay and diminish with time. The Elves living in Middle-Earth would also be affected and in time fade away. They had the choice to go to Valinor, but there they were the least of beings among the Valnar and Maiar, while in Middle-Earth they ruled as the highest among all. Also, they loved Middle-Earth as it was the place where they first awoke.
Celebrimbor and the other smiths of Eregion sought a way to slow the effect of time and the decay of the world, and so for the Elves to remain in Middle-Earth. However, the rings they created were lacking, until Sauron came and taught them how to make these magical, albeit cursed and corrupted, rings.
After the other sixteen rings were forged, Celebrimbor had finally accumulated sufficient knowledge and perfected his craftmanship, so that he could commence creating these three Elven rings which would have the powers to preserve time and protect the realm in which the wearer resided.
In the series,if I'm not mistaken, he made them to save the tree that was dying due to the return of evil. What tree is that ? What does it represent?
That decaying Great Tree in Lindon is something the writers made up. It isn't in Tolkien books.
The writers say that it is a representation of the friendship between Durin and Elrond - the sapling was a gift from Elrond to Durin - and in that sense, between the Elves and the Dwarves, a friendship that may soon wither. And also that the Elves will die when the Lindon Tree is gone.
The 'Two Trees of Valinor' (Telperion and Laurelin) were destroyed in the First Age (Years of the Trees) by the first Dark Lord Morgoth (fka Melkor; he was one of the fifteen Ainur, who were named Valar when they entered the world (Arda)).
Sauron was a Maia, who was Morgoth's second-in-command in the First Age (Years of the Sun). After the defeat of Morgoth, he fled Middle-Earth and hid for centuries. He returned in the Second Age (SA 500) and began to slowly acquire power to become the second Dark Lord
So Morgoth aka Melkor was a valar.... a god that became evil. And Sauron, his second in command, was a Maia (like Gandolf ) a very potent wizard who returned to destroy the elves and Middle Earth.
Yes. Sauron and Gandalf are both Maiar, who took on the shape of Men. The powers they wielded made them appear as wizards to everyone in Middle-Earth.
Did the writers replace the Hobbits and create the Harfoots?
Bilbo, Frodo, and the other Hobbits in the "The Lord of the Rings" movie trilogy, are descendants of these ancient Hobbits. Probably from the Harfoots and the Fallohides.
Did the production explain why the elves have short hair? Only Gil-galad has beautiful dark long hair.
Not really. There are statements, like:
"Drawing from material in LOTR’s appendices, The Rings of Power aims to give Tolkien fans an authentic new spinoff while course-correcting the original canon’s blind spots. Echoing recent fantasy shows like The Witcher and Wheel of Time, it gives more prominent roles to women and people of color. In the grand scheme of things, haircut choices are a minor detail."
"Styles and preferences can change over thousands of years, even among elves. They're not 'static' in other words. In one century they might opt for long hair, a few hundred years later they might change their minds. "
So, they could say that short hair is the fashion in the Second Age (television series), and long hair in the Third Age when the movies are set.
I'm okay , not looking forward to the Christmas period. The sooner it is over the better.
When Arda and Middle-Earth were created, it was like Valinor, a Garden of Eden, but Morgoth 'poisoned' this and everything then began to decay and diminish with time. The Elves living in Middle-Earth would also be affected and in time fade away. They had the choice to go to Valinor, but there they were the least of beings among the Valnar and Maiar, while in Middle-Earth they ruled as the highest among all. Also, they loved Middle-Earth as it was the place where they first awoke.
But had the two trees not been destroyed by Morgoth, the Elves would never have left Valinor, right?
I thought the Elves would have been above certain attitudes like wanting to be superior. I thought their essence was spiritual and pure.
I presume that Middle Earth was already there when the Elves arrived , after the destruction of Valinor. And the dwarves and men were there also?
Celebrimbor and the other smiths of Eregion sought a way to slow the effect of time and the decay of the world, and so for the Elves to remain in Middle-Earth. However, the rings they created were lacking, until Sauron came and taught them how to make these magical, albeit cursed and corrupted, rings.
So according to the book , when the first 16 rings were made by Celebrimbor they were not as strong... their power was limited.
Did Celebrimbor choose those among the dwarves and Men who would get the 16 rings?
So Sauron arrived and gave Celebrimbor a hand in creating the last three rings which were for the Elves and they were the strongest ?
I know Gil-galad owned the blue ring, Vilya...he gave it to Elrond before he was killed by Sauron.
After the other sixteen rings were forged, Celebrimbor had finally accumulated sufficient knowledge and perfected his craftmanship, so that he could commence creating these three Elven rings which would have the powers to preserve time and protect the realm in which the wearer resided.
I read that when Elrond was stressed out or sick the ring's power was erratic.., Elrond also used the ring's power to protect Imlandris.
So, they could say that short hair is the fashion in the Second Age (television series), and long hair in the Third Age when the movies are set
I don't understand why they just couldn't be honest and say for budget reasons... I do miss the long hair.
I love Gil-galad he looks very handsome with long raven hair. He really looks regal. I definitely have a crush on him, it upsets me to know he will die.
I like Adar as a character and the actor that impersonates him ; disappointed the actor will be replaced and that Adar also will eventually be killed by Sauron. Damn it.
So the production cast Ismael Cruz Cordova as an elf to be politically correct? Does that mean there will be a gay elf too ?
I'm okay , not looking forward to the Christmas period. The sooner it is over the better.
@sunshine62 Ciao.
When Arda and Middle-Earth were created, it was like Valinor, a Garden of Eden, but Morgoth 'poisoned' this and everything then began to decay and diminish with time. The Elves living in Middle-Earth would also be affected and in time fade away. They had the choice to go to Valinor, but there they were the least of beings among the Valnar and Maiar, while in Middle-Earth they ruled as the highest among all. Also, they loved Middle-Earth as it was the place where they first awoke.
But had the two trees not been destroyed by Morgoth, the Elves would never have left Valinor, right?
The destruction of the Two Trees was an event that happened during the Darkening of Valinor. It was not the reason why the Noldor elves left Valinor, Aman.
Only the Noldor tribe left. The other two tribes, Vanyar and Teleri, stayed.
The history, told in Tolkien book "The Silmarillion" is very long. Here is a tiny piece (recap) about the Elves:
Valinor is the home of the Valar and the Maiar, where they live on Arda (the world). It is on the continent Aman, west of the continent Middle-Earth.
The Elves are not from Valinor. After Eru, the supreme being of Eä (the Universe), created the Ainur - those who chose to enter and live on Arda were called the Valar - and the Maiar, he awakened (created) the Elves, in the far east of Middle-Earth, in Cuiviénen.
When the Valar discoverd the Elves, they invited them to come to Valinor. The Elves first refused to leave Middle-Earth, but when their ambassadors came to Valinor, and saw the light of the Two Trees of Valinor, they were convinced, and many left Middle-Earth (these Elves were then named the Eldar), but others stayed (the Avari). The Eldar split in three tribes: Minyar (Vanyar, the Firsts), Tatyar ( Noldor, the Seconds) and Nelyar (Teleri, Those who come last).
Finwë, King of the Noldor, led his tribe from Middle-earth to Valinor, Aman. One of his sons, Fëanor, created the Silmarils, three gems which contained some of the essence (light) of the Two Trees. Melkor, who had befriended the Elves in Valinor, and started to corrupt them, saw these gems. He continued to tell lies to the Elves and said that the Valar were not to be trusted and were afraid of them, that the Valar only wanted the Elves to live in Valinor, so that they can rule Middle-Earth, through the Mortal Men, who were more easily controlled. Many of the Noldor, especially Fëanor, believed Melkor. A revolt against the Valar was brewing. Finwë called a council and tried to calm everyone, but Fëanor came with a sword and threatened his brother Fingolf. When the Valar discovered that Melkor was behind all this, they intervened, and Fëanor was sentenced to twelve years in exile to Formenos, a fortress north of Valinor. Finwë renounced his throne as King of the Noldor, and followed his son in exile. Melkor came there and tried to persuade Fëanor that the Silmarils were not safe in Valinor and should be taken to Middle-Earth. However, Fëanor did not trust Melkor with the Silmarils and sent him away. Three years later, during the great high feast of Y.T. 1495, Melkor returns with Ungoliant. He destroys the Two Trees, kills Finwë in Formenos and steals the Silmarils.
The distrust and hate, sown by Melkor, among the Elves and between them and the Valar, had now grown so much, that the Noldor, led by Fëanor, rebelled against the Valar. Fëanor called on the Noldor to leave Aman and return to Middle-earth, to fight Morgoth (fka Melkor) for stealing the Silmarils. The Oath of Fëanor was taken by Fëanor and his sons: an irrevocable oath to pursue any in Arda who may take and withhold from them any of the Silmarils.
For the first time blood was shed between the Elves, when the Noldor slaughtered the Teleri in Aman and took their ships to leave for Middle-Earth. Galadriel was one of the many Noldor elves who left Valinor with Fëanor.
I thought the Elves would have been above certain attitudes like wanting to be superior. I thought their essence was spiritual and pure.
The Elves can be corruped, like any other being. Melkor (Morgoth) is very good at doing that.
I presume that Middle Earth was already there when the Elves arrived , after the destruction of Valinor. And the dwarves and men were there also?
As mentioned above, the Elves were originally from Middle-Earth. Eru created the two races of Elves and Men, who were also known as 'The Children of Ilúvatar'.
The Dwarves were created by the Vala Aulë.
Valinor was not destroyed, only the Two Trees. Then Melkor fled to Middle-Earth.
Celebrimbor and the other smiths of Eregion sought a way to slow the effect of time and the decay of the world, and so for the Elves to remain in Middle-Earth. However, the rings they created were lacking, until Sauron came and taught them how to make these magical, albeit cursed and corrupted, rings.
So according to the book , when the first 16 rings were made by Celebrimbor they were not as strong... their power was limited.
Did Celebrimbor choose those among the dwarves and Men who would get the 16 rings?
Sauron gave the nine rings to the Mortal Men and at least six of the seven rings to the Dwarf-kings. it is not clear who gave Durin III his ring. The Dwarves say that it was Celebrimbor, others say that it was Sauron.
So Sauron arrived and gave Celebrimbor a hand in creating the last three rings which were for the Elves and they were the strongest ?
Sauron assisted the Elven smiths in forging the sixteen rings for Men and Dwarves, and then left Eregion in S.A. 1500 . Ninety years passed, while Celebrimbor was secretly working alone on the three Elven Rings. They would be his greatest achievement and these rings would be more powerful than the rings for Men and Dwarves. He finally succeeded in S.A. 1590. These three rings could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.
So, Sauron was not involved in the creation of the last three Elven Rings. He did not know of them and so they were not tainted by him, but because Celebrimbor had used the knowledge that he had learned from Sauron, they could still be controlled by Sauron with the One Ring.
I know Gil-galad owned the blue ring, Vilya...he gave it to Elrond before he was killed by Sauron.
There were other Elves who wore the rings. When in S.A. 1600 Sauron made the One Ring, he discovered the Elven rings and tried to control the wearers. The Elves resisted and took the ring off. Celebrimbor then gave the three rings away to keep them safe from Sauron: Nenya to Galadriel, Vilya to High King Gil-galad and Narya to Círdan. Gil-galad gave Elrond Vilya in S.A. 1701, and was still alive then, until he was killed in S.A. 3441, when Sauron was finally defeated in the war with the Last Alliance of Elves and Men.
So the production cast Ismael Cruz Cordova as an elf to be politically correct? Does that mean there will be a gay elf too ?
Anything is possible. This is the era of PC, diversity and inclusiveness.
thanks for the time you have dedicated to replying to my questions. Now I know much more and I find it engaging.
So what happened to the three gems that were created by Faenor with the light of the two trees in Valinor? They must have been very precious especially after Melkor destroyed the two trees.
Gil Galad gave Elrond Vilya in S.A. 1707, and was still alive then, until he was killed in S.A. 3441, when Sauron was finally defeated in the war with the Last Alliance of Elves and Men
This surprised me. Gil Galad must have had a very unique bond with Elrond to entrust the ring to him all those years whilst he was still alive. My understanding ( totally wrong) was that he felt he was going to die in battle so he gave it to him.
So Gil Galad was still alive when Elrond left for Lindon with the ring to establish Imladris. Whose idea was that, King Gil Galad's?
Something else had me scratching my head. Why didn't Gil Galad ever get married and produce an heir? I found that odd. He lived for 3576 years.
Oropher had Thrandhuil and Elrond had the twins Elladan and Elrohir and later Arwin.
Last question, will King Gil Galad and Haldir of Lorien ever leave The Halls of Mandos for Valinor?
So what happened to the three gems that were created by Faenor with the light of the two trees in Valinor? They must have been very precious especially after Melkor destroyed the two trees.
Yes, with all three of the Silmarils combined, the Valar could have restored the Two Trees.
One of the Silmarils was found by the Man Beren and the Elf Luthien.
The romance of the hero Beren and the princess of the Sindar, Luthien, is one of the great love stories told of the First Age. Luthien's father was King Thingol, whose brother Elmo was the grandfather of Celeborn, the husband of Galadriel.
Beren had fallen in love with Luthien, but her father King Thingol would only consent to their marriage, if Beren brought back a Silmaril from the Iron Crown of Morgoth. On his quest to fulfill this impossible task, Beren sought help from Finrod, the older brother of Galadriel. Together with ten others, they disguised themselves as Orcs, and began their perilous journey through the dark lands. Cursed by The Oath of Feanor, they were discovered, captured and imprisoned in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the isle of werewolves, a fortress of Sauron. Because they would not reveal their true identities, Sauron sent werewolves to deal with them. The prisoners were devoured one by one, until only Beren and Finrod were left. When a wolf attacked Beren, Finrod broke free from his chains, threw himself in front of the beast and killed it with his bare hands. Unfortunately he was too seriously wounded to heal himself and died. Beren was later rescued by Luthien and the wolfhound Huan. They retrieved the gem and it was given to the Valar in the West, who set it in the sky as The Star of Eärendil.
The other two Silmarils were taken by Fëanor's sons Maedhros and Maglor. They burned their hands, when touching it, and Maedhros threw himself and his gem into the fire, and Maglor threw his into the sea.
Gil Galad gave Elrond Vilya in S.A. 1707, and was still alive then, until he was killed in S.A. 3441, when Sauron was finally defeated in the war with the Last Alliance of Elves and Men
This surprised me. Gil Galad must have had a very unique bond with Elrond to entrust the ring to him all those years whilst he was still alive. My understanding ( totally wrong) was that he felt he was going to die in battle so he gave it to him.
The exact date when Gil-galad gave Vilya to Elrond is not known. I remember to have read that it was around the time of the first White Council in S.A. 1701, long before his death 1700 years later. But perhaps you're right and Gil-galad could see into the future, that he would die thousands of years later in the Last Alliance of Elves and Men in S.A. 3441.
So Gil Galad was still alive when Elrond left for Lindon with the ring to establish Imladris. Whose idea was that, King Gil Galad's?
A bit more history:
When Sauron uses the One Ring in S.A. 1600, he discovers the existence of the Three Elven Rings. He starts his dominion over Middle-Earth and in S.A. 1693 the War of the Elves and Sauron begins, and when Gil-galad heard of Sauron's army attacking Eriador in S.A. 1695, he sent Elrond and the Elven army to help. Elrond and Celeborn joined forces, but they were stopped by the superior army of Sauron. In S.A. 1697 Eregion was destroyed and Celebrimbor captured. Elrond withdrew with refugees to the north and founded Imladris (aka Rivendell) in Eastern Eriador. The army of the Númenóreans arrived in S.A. 1700 and Sauron was defeated by the combined forces of Elves, Men and Dwarves, but he succeeded in escaping to Mordor. The first White Council was held in S.A. 1701, and Galadriel - who was living in Lórinand (Lothlórien) since S.A. 1350-1400 with Celeborn and her daughter Celebrían - came to see Celeborn in Imladris. She was accompanied by Celebrían, the future wife of Elrond and mother of Arwen.
Something else had me scratching my head. Why didn't Gil Galad ever get married and produce an heir? I found that odd. He lived for 3576 years.
It is not known why Gil-galad never married. Perhaps he never found true love, or the war prevented him from marrying. Or Tolkien just wrote it that way, for Gil-galad to be a tragic figure and his lineage to end with him.
I won't be surprised if the writers of the television series will make up their own story.
Last question, will King Gil Galad and Haldir of Lorien ever leave The Halls of Mandos for Valinor?
In Tolkien's books Haldir was not at Helm's Deep, so he didn't die. Gil-galad can be reincarnated when he choses to, but - as far as I know - nothing is mentioned in the books.
Wow, Beren and the Elf Luthien’s story sounds turbulent. I love lots of drama, and turmoil.
The name Maglor rings a bell.. somehow Elrond and Elros grow up with him, I believe.
But perhaps you're right and Gil-galad could see into the future, that he would die thousands of years later in the Last Alliance of Elves and Men in S.A. 3441
I was unclear in my initially explanation, I thought before the battle in which Gil Galad actually died The King had had a bad feeling he would not survive and that’s why he gave Vilya to Elrond. Instead, he entrusted the ring long before his demise, so he held Elrond in great consideration, like a family member.
Thanks for the summary concerning Elrond and when and why he established Imladris.
It is not known why Gil-Galad never married. Perhaps he never found true love, or the war prevented him from marrying. Or Tolkien just wrote it that way, for Gil-galad to be a tragic figure and his lineage to end with him.
Most of the time, kings and queens in the past married to tie alliances and to produce an heir, LOVE really had little place.
Being an elf Gil Galad was immortal but seeing he passed a good part of his life on the battlefield, that alone would have made it more urgent for him to have an heir ( even more).
In Tolkien's books Haldir was not at Helm's Deep, so he didn't die. Gil-galad can be reincarnated when he choses to, but - as far as I know - nothing is mentioned in the books.
Yesss what a happy tibdit .. at the time I didn’t know his name was Haldir but I liked the character and was upset when he died.. only after did I discovery he was supposed to be one of three brothers/ March wardens of Lorien where Galadriel and Celeborn lived.. they adopted them after the three were orphaned (?) how I don’t know. So glad to know he didn’t die in the books.
Okay so Gil Galad can leave the Halls of Mandos and go to Valinor / the undying lands.
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Reply by Kurtzmansucks
on December 19, 2022 at 12:59 AM
So in other words instead of worrying about the justified criticism they are doubling down can hardly wait
Reply by Nexus71
on May 31, 2023 at 4:25 AM
Two changes; 1) destroy all episodes of season 1 2) Forget the idea of making season 2
Reply by sunshine62
on November 12, 2023 at 4:39 AM
I just finished watching season one.
I checked the link you provided wonder2wonder and I was sorry to read that the actor portraying Adar will be recast.
I think Elrond and the Dwarf had a lot of chemistry. I don’t understand why Elrond was given such big elf ears though. It took me a couple of episodes to stop staring at them.
The actor cast as the High King Gil-Galad is perfect.
Arondir is another favourite of mine.
One of the scenes that really impressed me was in episode one as the ship entered Valinor.
I wonder if Glorfindel or Thranduil will appear at some stage , they are my favorite Tolkien characters.
Reply by wonder2wonder
on November 12, 2023 at 12:44 PM
That was a beautiful scene.
Season 1 of the series is mostly set during SA 1500-1701 of the Second Age (SA 1- 3441). The "Lord of the Rings" and "THe Hobbit" movies are in the Third Age, when Glorfindel and Thranduil appear.
But I won't be surprised if they do appear in the series, as the writers, as usual, have decided to ignore the timeline and canon. There are a lot of changes - including retcons of canon, new characters and changes to existing ones - when compared to the books. It's like seeing an alternate time line: hundreds of years between events compressed in just a couple of years, characters who shouldn't be there at that time or place, or even exist.
For example:
Gandalf was introduced in the series, while there were other wizards. Galadriel became an action hero and a leader of armies. Mithril is more special in the series than what was described in the books. The last one was that the three Elven rings were made first in the television series, while in the book they were made last, after the Seven for the Dwarf-lords and Nine for Mortal Men. Sauron was not involved with their creation and did not know - he might have suspected - of their existence in the books. Let's hope that in the television series these Elven rings and the other ones aren't going to be used the way superheroes - e.g. Green Lantern - use them.
Reply by sunshine62
on November 13, 2023 at 5:29 AM
Ciao wonder2wonder
I watched The Hobbit two years ago ... I love the lore but I have no inclination to read the books ...maybe it turned out for the best seeing you tell me the series has thrown canon out of the window. Figures.
Just like the writers on Strange New World.. that really pissed me off, so I understand the frustration of the die-hard fans of Tolkien.
I have never seen Green Lantern , not even the trailer ... I saw the first three Lord of the Rings films about 10 years ago and I thought the Rings were all made by Sauron ...the Rings were evil and corrupted those that wore them and in the end the owners became minions of Sauron.
The two trees that were destroyed in Valinor .. that evil force was defeated eventually .... has it come back now as Sauron? Or are those two evil forces two different entities. ?
Reply by wonder2wonder
on November 13, 2023 at 11:55 AM
@sunshine62 Ciao.
The books are wonderful to read, but I can understand that it is not for everyone.
Around SA 1500 Sauron helped the Elven smiths in Eregion to forge the nine rings for Mortal Men and the seven rings for the Dwarf-lords. Later in SA 1590 when Celebrimbor was alone, he made the three rings for the Elven-kings. Finally, around SA 1600, Sauron made the 'One Ring to rule them all' in Mount Doom (Mordor).
The 'Two Trees of Valinor' (Telperion and Laurelin) were destroyed in the First Age (Years of the Trees) by the first Dark Lord Morgoth (fka Melkor; he was one of the fifteen Ainur, who were named Valar when they entered the world (Arda)).
Sauron was a Maia, who was Morgoth's second-in-command in the First Age (Years of the Sun). After the defeat of Morgoth, he fled Middle-Earth and hid for centuries. He returned in the Second Age (SA 500) and began to slowly acquire power to become the second Dark Lord.
Reply by whocares911
on November 13, 2023 at 1:08 PM
I really wish we could get Ungoliant and the silmarils in live action.
Reply by wonder2wonder
on November 13, 2023 at 1:52 PM
Ungoliant died and the Silmarils were scattered (sky, earth and sea) in the First Age (books), but who knows the writers might show flashbacks. Galadriel was born in Y.T. 1362, the 'Two Trees' were destroyed in Y.T. 1495. So if the writers want to be creative, they could have her, Fëanor, and her brother there when Morgoth and Ungoliant are destroying the 'Two Trees'.
Reply by sunshine62
on November 23, 2023 at 5:49 AM
Ciao
First off, sorry for the late reply wonder2wonder.
The books are wonderful to read, but I can understand that it is not for everyone.
The truth is I'm not a big reader so it has nothing to do with the theme.
Around SA 1500 Sauron helped the Elven smiths in Eregion to forge the nine rings for Mortal Men and the seven rings for the Dwarf-lords. Later in SA 1590 when Celebrimbor was alone, he made the three rings for the Elven-kings. Finally, around SA 1600, Sauron made the 'One Ring to rule them all' in Mount Doom (Mordor).
In the finale we see Celebrimbor making the three rings before all the others...that's no small change. Why did he make the three rings in the book?
In the series,if I'm not mistaken, he made them to save the tree that was dying due to the return of evil. What tree is that ? What does it represent?
The 'Two Trees of Valinor' (Telperion and Laurelin) were destroyed in the First Age (Years of the Trees) by the first Dark Lord Morgoth (fka Melkor; he was one of the fifteen Ainur, who were named Valar when they entered the world (Arda)). Sauron was a Maia, who was Morgoth's second-in-command in the First Age (Years of the Sun). After the defeat of Morgoth, he fled Middle-Earth and hid for centuries. He returned in the Second Age (SA 500) and began to slowly acquire power to become the second Dark Lord
So Morgoth aka Melkor was a valar.... a god that became evil. And Sauron, his second in command, was a Maia (like Gandolf ) a very potent wizard who returned to destroy the elves and Middle Earth.
Did the writers replace the Hobbits and create the Harfoots?
Did the production explain why the elves have short hair? Only Gil-galad has beautiful dark long hair.
Last question: is Gil-galad and Erlond related?
Reply by wonder2wonder
on November 23, 2023 at 1:47 PM
@sunshine62 Ciao. I hope you're doing fine.
I understand that too, as it's been a long time since I myself have read any new books.
When Arda and Middle-Earth were created, it was like Valinor, a Garden of Eden, but Morgoth 'poisoned' this and everything then began to decay and diminish with time. The Elves living in Middle-Earth would also be affected and in time fade away. They had the choice to go to Valinor, but there they were the least of beings among the Valnar and Maiar, while in Middle-Earth they ruled as the highest among all. Also, they loved Middle-Earth as it was the place where they first awoke.
Celebrimbor and the other smiths of Eregion sought a way to slow the effect of time and the decay of the world, and so for the Elves to remain in Middle-Earth. However, the rings they created were lacking, until Sauron came and taught them how to make these magical, albeit cursed and corrupted, rings.
After the other sixteen rings were forged, Celebrimbor had finally accumulated sufficient knowledge and perfected his craftmanship, so that he could commence creating these three Elven rings which would have the powers to preserve time and protect the realm in which the wearer resided.
That decaying Great Tree in Lindon is something the writers made up. It isn't in Tolkien books.
The writers say that it is a representation of the friendship between Durin and Elrond - the sapling was a gift from Elrond to Durin - and in that sense, between the Elves and the Dwarves, a friendship that may soon wither. And also that the Elves will die when the Lindon Tree is gone.
Yes. Sauron and Gandalf are both Maiar, who took on the shape of Men. The powers they wielded made them appear as wizards to everyone in Middle-Earth.
Harfoots are one of the three breeds of ancient Hobbits. The other two are the Fallohides and the Stoors.
Bilbo, Frodo, and the other Hobbits in the "The Lord of the Rings" movie trilogy, are descendants of these ancient Hobbits. Probably from the Harfoots and the Fallohides.
Not really. There are statements, like:
"Drawing from material in LOTR’s appendices, The Rings of Power aims to give Tolkien fans an authentic new spinoff while course-correcting the original canon’s blind spots. Echoing recent fantasy shows like The Witcher and Wheel of Time, it gives more prominent roles to women and people of color. In the grand scheme of things, haircut choices are a minor detail."
"Styles and preferences can change over thousands of years, even among elves. They're not 'static' in other words. In one century they might opt for long hair, a few hundred years later they might change their minds. "
So, they could say that short hair is the fashion in the Second Age (television series), and long hair in the Third Age when the movies are set.
It could be to save on the budget, or some of the actors didn't look good enough with long hair. Elrond from the television series could never look as good as Elrond from the movies. And Ismael also looks better with a short haircut, just like Uhura.
Or the showrunners just wanted to make everything more contemporary to appeal to the viewers.
No, Elrond and Gil-galad are not related. He served as Gil-galad's herald.
Reply by sunshine62
on November 24, 2023 at 6:54 AM
Ciao wonder2wonder,
I'm okay , not looking forward to the Christmas period. The sooner it is over the better.
When Arda and Middle-Earth were created, it was like Valinor, a Garden of Eden, but Morgoth 'poisoned' this and everything then began to decay and diminish with time. The Elves living in Middle-Earth would also be affected and in time fade away. They had the choice to go to Valinor, but there they were the least of beings among the Valnar and Maiar, while in Middle-Earth they ruled as the highest among all. Also, they loved Middle-Earth as it was the place where they first awoke.
But had the two trees not been destroyed by Morgoth, the Elves would never have left Valinor, right?
I thought the Elves would have been above certain attitudes like wanting to be superior. I thought their essence was spiritual and pure.
I presume that Middle Earth was already there when the Elves arrived , after the destruction of Valinor. And the dwarves and men were there also?
Celebrimbor and the other smiths of Eregion sought a way to slow the effect of time and the decay of the world, and so for the Elves to remain in Middle-Earth. However, the rings they created were lacking, until Sauron came and taught them how to make these magical, albeit cursed and corrupted, rings.
So according to the book , when the first 16 rings were made by Celebrimbor they were not as strong... their power was limited.
Did Celebrimbor choose those among the dwarves and Men who would get the 16 rings?
So Sauron arrived and gave Celebrimbor a hand in creating the last three rings which were for the Elves and they were the strongest ?
I know Gil-galad owned the blue ring, Vilya...he gave it to Elrond before he was killed by Sauron.
After the other sixteen rings were forged, Celebrimbor had finally accumulated sufficient knowledge and perfected his craftmanship, so that he could commence creating these three Elven rings which would have the powers to preserve time and protect the realm in which the wearer resided.
I read that when Elrond was stressed out or sick the ring's power was erratic.., Elrond also used the ring's power to protect Imlandris.
So, they could say that short hair is the fashion in the Second Age (television series), and long hair in the Third Age when the movies are set
I don't understand why they just couldn't be honest and say for budget reasons... I do miss the long hair.
I love Gil-galad he looks very handsome with long raven hair. He really looks regal. I definitely have a crush on him, it upsets me to know he will die.
I like Adar as a character and the actor that impersonates him ; disappointed the actor will be replaced and that Adar also will eventually be killed by Sauron. Damn it.
So the production cast Ismael Cruz Cordova as an elf to be politically correct? Does that mean there will be a gay elf too ?
Reply by wonder2wonder
on November 24, 2023 at 5:21 PM
@sunshine62 Ciao.
The destruction of the Two Trees was an event that happened during the Darkening of Valinor. It was not the reason why the Noldor elves left Valinor, Aman.
Only the Noldor tribe left. The other two tribes, Vanyar and Teleri, stayed.
The history, told in Tolkien book "The Silmarillion" is very long. Here is a tiny piece (recap) about the Elves:
Valinor is the home of the Valar and the Maiar, where they live on Arda (the world). It is on the continent Aman, west of the continent Middle-Earth.
The Elves are not from Valinor. After Eru, the supreme being of Eä (the Universe), created the Ainur - those who chose to enter and live on Arda were called the Valar - and the Maiar, he awakened (created) the Elves, in the far east of Middle-Earth, in Cuiviénen.
When the Valar discoverd the Elves, they invited them to come to Valinor. The Elves first refused to leave Middle-Earth, but when their ambassadors came to Valinor, and saw the light of the Two Trees of Valinor, they were convinced, and many left Middle-Earth (these Elves were then named the Eldar), but others stayed (the Avari). The Eldar split in three tribes: Minyar (Vanyar, the Firsts), Tatyar ( Noldor, the Seconds) and Nelyar (Teleri, Those who come last).
Finwë, King of the Noldor, led his tribe from Middle-earth to Valinor, Aman. One of his sons, Fëanor, created the Silmarils, three gems which contained some of the essence (light) of the Two Trees. Melkor, who had befriended the Elves in Valinor, and started to corrupt them, saw these gems. He continued to tell lies to the Elves and said that the Valar were not to be trusted and were afraid of them, that the Valar only wanted the Elves to live in Valinor, so that they can rule Middle-Earth, through the Mortal Men, who were more easily controlled. Many of the Noldor, especially Fëanor, believed Melkor. A revolt against the Valar was brewing. Finwë called a council and tried to calm everyone, but Fëanor came with a sword and threatened his brother Fingolf. When the Valar discovered that Melkor was behind all this, they intervened, and Fëanor was sentenced to twelve years in exile to Formenos, a fortress north of Valinor. Finwë renounced his throne as King of the Noldor, and followed his son in exile. Melkor came there and tried to persuade Fëanor that the Silmarils were not safe in Valinor and should be taken to Middle-Earth. However, Fëanor did not trust Melkor with the Silmarils and sent him away. Three years later, during the great high feast of Y.T. 1495, Melkor returns with Ungoliant. He destroys the Two Trees, kills Finwë in Formenos and steals the Silmarils.
The distrust and hate, sown by Melkor, among the Elves and between them and the Valar, had now grown so much, that the Noldor, led by Fëanor, rebelled against the Valar. Fëanor called on the Noldor to leave Aman and return to Middle-earth, to fight Morgoth (fka Melkor) for stealing the Silmarils. The Oath of Fëanor was taken by Fëanor and his sons: an irrevocable oath to pursue any in Arda who may take and withhold from them any of the Silmarils.
For the first time blood was shed between the Elves, when the Noldor slaughtered the Teleri in Aman and took their ships to leave for Middle-Earth. Galadriel was one of the many Noldor elves who left Valinor with Fëanor.
The Elves can be corruped, like any other being. Melkor (Morgoth) is very good at doing that.
As mentioned above, the Elves were originally from Middle-Earth. Eru created the two races of Elves and Men, who were also known as 'The Children of Ilúvatar'.
The Dwarves were created by the Vala Aulë.
Valinor was not destroyed, only the Two Trees. Then Melkor fled to Middle-Earth.
Sauron gave the nine rings to the Mortal Men and at least six of the seven rings to the Dwarf-kings. it is not clear who gave Durin III his ring. The Dwarves say that it was Celebrimbor, others say that it was Sauron.
Sauron assisted the Elven smiths in forging the sixteen rings for Men and Dwarves, and then left Eregion in S.A. 1500 . Ninety years passed, while Celebrimbor was secretly working alone on the three Elven Rings. They would be his greatest achievement and these rings would be more powerful than the rings for Men and Dwarves. He finally succeeded in S.A. 1590. These three rings could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.
So, Sauron was not involved in the creation of the last three Elven Rings. He did not know of them and so they were not tainted by him, but because Celebrimbor had used the knowledge that he had learned from Sauron, they could still be controlled by Sauron with the One Ring.
There were other Elves who wore the rings. When in S.A. 1600 Sauron made the One Ring, he discovered the Elven rings and tried to control the wearers. The Elves resisted and took the ring off. Celebrimbor then gave the three rings away to keep them safe from Sauron: Nenya to Galadriel, Vilya to High King Gil-galad and Narya to Círdan. Gil-galad gave Elrond Vilya in S.A. 1701, and was still alive then, until he was killed in S.A. 3441, when Sauron was finally defeated in the war with the Last Alliance of Elves and Men.
Anything is possible. This is the era of PC, diversity and inclusiveness.
Reply by sunshine62
on November 29, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Ciao wonder2wonder
thanks for the time you have dedicated to replying to my questions. Now I know much more and I find it engaging.
So what happened to the three gems that were created by Faenor with the light of the two trees in Valinor? They must have been very precious especially after Melkor destroyed the two trees.
Gil Galad gave Elrond Vilya in S.A. 1707, and was still alive then, until he was killed in S.A. 3441, when Sauron was finally defeated in the war with the Last Alliance of Elves and Men
This surprised me. Gil Galad must have had a very unique bond with Elrond to entrust the ring to him all those years whilst he was still alive. My understanding ( totally wrong) was that he felt he was going to die in battle so he gave it to him.
So Gil Galad was still alive when Elrond left for Lindon with the ring to establish Imladris. Whose idea was that, King Gil Galad's?
Something else had me scratching my head. Why didn't Gil Galad ever get married and produce an heir? I found that odd. He lived for 3576 years.
Oropher had Thrandhuil and Elrond had the twins Elladan and Elrohir and later Arwin.
Last question, will King Gil Galad and Haldir of Lorien ever leave The Halls of Mandos for Valinor?
Reply by wonder2wonder
on November 29, 2023 at 8:19 PM
@sunshine62 Ciao.
Is it getting colder there?
Yes, with all three of the Silmarils combined, the Valar could have restored the Two Trees.
One of the Silmarils was found by the Man Beren and the Elf Luthien.
The romance of the hero Beren and the princess of the Sindar, Luthien, is one of the great love stories told of the First Age. Luthien's father was King Thingol, whose brother Elmo was the grandfather of Celeborn, the husband of Galadriel.
Beren had fallen in love with Luthien, but her father King Thingol would only consent to their marriage, if Beren brought back a Silmaril from the Iron Crown of Morgoth. On his quest to fulfill this impossible task, Beren sought help from Finrod, the older brother of Galadriel. Together with ten others, they disguised themselves as Orcs, and began their perilous journey through the dark lands. Cursed by The Oath of Feanor, they were discovered, captured and imprisoned in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the isle of werewolves, a fortress of Sauron. Because they would not reveal their true identities, Sauron sent werewolves to deal with them. The prisoners were devoured one by one, until only Beren and Finrod were left. When a wolf attacked Beren, Finrod broke free from his chains, threw himself in front of the beast and killed it with his bare hands. Unfortunately he was too seriously wounded to heal himself and died. Beren was later rescued by Luthien and the wolfhound Huan. They retrieved the gem and it was given to the Valar in the West, who set it in the sky as The Star of Eärendil.
The other two Silmarils were taken by Fëanor's sons Maedhros and Maglor. They burned their hands, when touching it, and Maedhros threw himself and his gem into the fire, and Maglor threw his into the sea.
The exact date when Gil-galad gave Vilya to Elrond is not known. I remember to have read that it was around the time of the first White Council in S.A. 1701, long before his death 1700 years later. But perhaps you're right and Gil-galad could see into the future, that he would die thousands of years later in the Last Alliance of Elves and Men in S.A. 3441.
A bit more history:
When Sauron uses the One Ring in S.A. 1600, he discovers the existence of the Three Elven Rings. He starts his dominion over Middle-Earth and in S.A. 1693 the War of the Elves and Sauron begins, and when Gil-galad heard of Sauron's army attacking Eriador in S.A. 1695, he sent Elrond and the Elven army to help. Elrond and Celeborn joined forces, but they were stopped by the superior army of Sauron. In S.A. 1697 Eregion was destroyed and Celebrimbor captured. Elrond withdrew with refugees to the north and founded Imladris (aka Rivendell) in Eastern Eriador. The army of the Númenóreans arrived in S.A. 1700 and Sauron was defeated by the combined forces of Elves, Men and Dwarves, but he succeeded in escaping to Mordor. The first White Council was held in S.A. 1701, and Galadriel - who was living in Lórinand (Lothlórien) since S.A. 1350-1400 with Celeborn and her daughter Celebrían - came to see Celeborn in Imladris. She was accompanied by Celebrían, the future wife of Elrond and mother of Arwen.
It is not known why Gil-galad never married. Perhaps he never found true love, or the war prevented him from marrying. Or Tolkien just wrote it that way, for Gil-galad to be a tragic figure and his lineage to end with him.
I won't be surprised if the writers of the television series will make up their own story.
In Tolkien's books Haldir was not at Helm's Deep, so he didn't die. Gil-galad can be reincarnated when he choses to, but - as far as I know - nothing is mentioned in the books.
Reply by sunshine62
on December 1, 2023 at 7:52 AM
Ciao wonder2wonder
Wow, Beren and the Elf Luthien’s story sounds turbulent. I love lots of drama, and turmoil.
The name Maglor rings a bell.. somehow Elrond and Elros grow up with him, I believe.
But perhaps you're right and Gil-galad could see into the future, that he would die thousands of years later in the Last Alliance of Elves and Men in S.A. 3441
I was unclear in my initially explanation, I thought before the battle in which Gil Galad actually died The King had had a bad feeling he would not survive and that’s why he gave Vilya to Elrond. Instead, he entrusted the ring long before his demise, so he held Elrond in great consideration, like a family member.
Thanks for the summary concerning Elrond and when and why he established Imladris.
It is not known why Gil-Galad never married. Perhaps he never found true love, or the war prevented him from marrying. Or Tolkien just wrote it that way, for Gil-galad to be a tragic figure and his lineage to end with him.
Most of the time, kings and queens in the past married to tie alliances and to produce an heir, LOVE really had little place.
Being an elf Gil Galad was immortal but seeing he passed a good part of his life on the battlefield, that alone would have made it more urgent for him to have an heir ( even more).
In Tolkien's books Haldir was not at Helm's Deep, so he didn't die. Gil-galad can be reincarnated when he choses to, but - as far as I know - nothing is mentioned in the books.
Yesss what a happy tibdit .. at the time I didn’t know his name was Haldir but I liked the character and was upset when he died.. only after did I discovery he was supposed to be one of three brothers/ March wardens of Lorien where Galadriel and Celeborn lived.. they adopted them after the three were orphaned (?) how I don’t know. So glad to know he didn’t die in the books.
Okay so Gil Galad can leave the Halls of Mandos and go to Valinor / the undying lands.