@Invidia said:

Do you think they've improved on it or not?

Since I haven't seen some of the first episodes in S1 (which weren't available ON DEMAND anymore by the time I found out about the show), can't compare the episodes you've mentioned, but OVERALL and based upon the last episodes of S1 and the rest of S2, I'd say they've improved upon some of the issues previously mentioned before in the ST SERIES.

In TOS, for example, they had the RACE of Aliens with BLACK & WHITE STRIPED SKIN who were PREJUDICED against the others who had WHITE & BLACK STRIPED SKIN (meaning their STRIPES were the OPPOSITE of the others.

VIDEO CLIP HERE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=12&v=vi7QQ5pO7_A

And in NG you had the eppy (one of my favorites) where BEVERLY falls in love with the other ALIEN, who dies, and then has his brain and brain stem transferred into the BODY of RYKER while waiting for another HOST BODY to arrive so it can be implanted into it. And BEVERLY is able to accept it when the guy she loved is transferred into RYKER, but after the guy gets transferred into the HOST BODY of another female, she breaks off the relationship with him.

So that was also an EXCELLENT STORY in regards to a GENDER ISSUE (due to the way it makes you question whether it's the MIND or the BODY that we fall in love with).

But, imo, THE ORVILLE has SURPASSED that situation now, due to the way they've ATTACKED the PATRIARCHAL SYSTEM in GENERAL, and revealed what the ULTIMATE OUTCOME could be IF the system is taken to EXTREMES.

And as far as one can recall, we never had a situation like that in the ST series before???

What's also interesting is how the ROBOT situation also PARALLELS the other story due to the way the ROBOTS also decided ORGANIC LIFE FORMS were TO INFERIOR to EXIST, the same way as the others decided that FEMALES were too INFERIOR to exist in their society.

Which also takes us back to the BLACK/WHITE vs WHITE/BLACK situation, but with THE ORVILLE dealing with PREJUDICED situations on a MUCH LARGER SCALE than the other PREJUDICED FILLED situation that we first encountered in TOS.

At least that's the way I see it.

A lot of what I'd expect from you, but mostly I comment to point out that you're wrong about the TNG episode. That was the first time the Trill were presented, and while it didn't make sense that supposedly nobody (including Beverly) knew what they were about (since they'd evidently been part of the Federation for some time, e.g. Curzon Dax), the fact is that it was the Trill Symbiont that was moved from the dying previous host body to Riker's body, temporarily. Brains and brain stems had nothing to do with it. The Trill symbiont is in the abdomen of the humanoid host.

You mean the idea that Riker's brain and brain stem could be replaced by an alien brain and brain stem, without affecting Riker after the alien stuff was removed? And his original brain and brain stem were stored... where? Kept alive.... how? And they learned how to do all that after McCoy said it was impossible in TOS? Maybe lots of people put on The Teacher, even after that stuff no longer worked once Spock's Brain was returned to his body? etc, etc.

Oh well.

It's not just plot similarities but, apart from a few risqué/infantile bits of humour, the whole feel of the show, and even its editing and cinematography (even its music!).

I wouldn't say it's an improvement, but I don't think it's a bad show.

@Invidia said:

So PREJUDICE is also an ONGOING THEME in THE ORVILLE, whereas in ST it was usually more EPISODIC in nature, and didn't dwell on such an ISSUE for 2 ENTIRE SEASONS.

...or, ST expected its viewers to pick up on the message the first time and didn't need to keep reminding them?

Because THE ORVILLE is also going into MUCH MORE DEPTH and DETAIL in regards to what the CONSEQUENCES are, and isn't just SKIMMING OVER the SURFACE of the MATTER the way ST tends to do.

I think the differences between DISC and TO are that in DISC we see a society that has accepted LGBT and that characters from that group can act and do what they want without being afraid of being discriminated,persecuted or killed for who or what they are.The Orville on the other hand chooses to use LGBT to hold up a mirror of the present times(like old Trek use to do) where people belonging to that group have to face and overcome all kinds adversities (even though the crew of The Orville or the organization they represent don't have problems with these issues )to get accepted while interacting with other alien species(who often have less of an open mind to these issues).For dramatic purposes I think TO is better at driving home the point and the issues members of the LGBT community have to face because of it's confrontational approach rather than normalizing the issues like DISC does which may be more progressive but less entertaining or less suited to inform an audience who do not represent this group.

We are now at episode 6 Krill so no the blue alien has not appeared yet so one first has to see the episode to compare it to the TNG episode where the Trill were introduced.One has heard of the Canterbury Tales and vaguely remembers discussing a couple of the stories but not the one you mentioned but my guess is women most want to be adored and worshiped by men ,to be put on a pedestal etc etc.

So far TO to me feels like a love letter by MacFarlane to 80's and 90's Star Trek ,where like the OP mentions a couple of comparisons to TOS and TNG episodes the show is using similar story lines to convey different issues and does in a slightly more in the face manner than the old Trek did part of the reasons for the more subtle approach was because in those days people talked less open about these issues and we can call it progress that a show like TO can show these issues more upfront without having to use allusions or metaphors to convey it's message. On the other hand we have DISC with it's all inclusiveness society where the issues are not a problem and are accepted is it or more progressive take on the issues yes but is it more interesting from a story perspective no and this is what MacFarlane and co have learned from the mistake of the TNG era stuff that a crew where crew members don't have conflicts between each other is quite dull and that for dramatic purposes and conveying a message conflict is a better story telling tool.In TO we see Bortus and Klyde discussing gender issues because it is born female in an alien race that only(or for the majority) consists of males and where the female baby has to undergo a sex change for her society to accept her the biggest conflict between LGBT characters in DISC is probably going to be a domestic quarrel between Stamnets and Dr, Hugh over who left the cap off the toothpaste tube.

I think they LGBT+ characters in DSC are handled is much the same way as the way people of other races/cultures were handled in TOS: as people. Sulu/Uhuru/Chekov weren't treated as "different" because Rodenberry believed that we'd have moved past that by then.

Maybe it's too subtle for some .

@Invidia : Don't believe everything some angry guy on YouTube says about a show they hate being cancelled. I don't agree with everything Oduntola says, but s/he makes a good point here: https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/67198-star-trek-discovery/discuss/5cdc2d75c3a36836f6c62546?page=9#5d08d5ea92514150c1b8ef2b

@Invidia : Don't believe everything some angry guy on YouTube says about a show they hate being cancelled. I don't agree with everything Oduntola says, but s/he makes a good point here: https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/67198-star-trek-discovery/discuss/5cdc2d75c3a36836f6c62546?page=9#5d08d5ea92514150c1b8ef2b

It's a bit strange though that she/he is calling out people who criticize DISC and seem to like The Orvile as white male racist,homophobe misogynist fanboys while the LGBT /racial issues in The Orville are treated in a far more obvious and confrontational manner than DISC has done .

You still ignore that, although especially in the first TNG presentation (but I'll remind everyone that the Trill were actually around for a LOOONG time, and certainly would have/should have been known about by anyone with any Federation experience, including Beverly) it was said that the personality of the "host" was basically "submerged" beneath that of the symbiont. it was later changed to be a "merging.," So really, the "person" that Beverly fell in love with - the WHOLE person - no longer existed after the change. Indeed, that's largely how Sisko got Dax off the trial for "treason" in the DS9 episode. Only the symbiont part still "loved" Beverly, and the symbionts have no gender at all. At least in relation to the external host. ("What happens in the mud pools, stays in the mud pools!")

@Nexus71 said:

It's a bit strange though that she/he is calling out people who criticize DISC and seem to like The Orvile as white male racist,homophobe misogynist fanboys while the LGBT /racial issues in The Orville are treated in a far more obvious and confrontational manner than DISC has done .

Like I said, I don't support all his/her claims. It was a good point about the proliferation of angry/negative YT pundits though.

As for TO vs DSC: I don't see there's any reason for DSC to be "confrontational" about such matters (though many seem to find the mere existence of LGBT+ characters an affront) as the future portrayed is one where various sexualities are accepted so much that they're not even commented on.

I was only trying to illustrate; 1) how absurd his /her assumption was about people who criticize DISC for various reasons other than the so called LGBT/racial issues he/she claims are what is really behind the criticism while those same criticasters seem to like The Orville which has a far more obvious LGBT/gender content.

2) That despite claiming that DSC is so modern and progressive in it's approach to LGBT/gender related issues by CBS/actors/actresses/critics while actually doing very little with these issues in the show,by having this so called all inclusiveness society of DSC the writers of the show short cut themselves for telling interesting ,thought provoking stories around these themes that make viewers question their beliefs or preconceptions on these issues.By choosing the more confrontational approach The Orvile IMO succeeds far better in making the viewers think about these issues than DSC so far has done.If the sexuality/gender/race isn't so important for the series (because such things are normal in the future) why did CBS keep hammering on about it and used it to fend off valid criticism on DSC by calling these criticasters white.male,racist, homophobe ,misogynist "fanboys" even though these "fanboys" will gladly watch a non franchise series that has for more issue -related content than DSC?

Uh oh, Nex. There you go, making sense again! How DARE you?

@Invidia said:

The POINT of the EPISODE was OBVIOUSLY NOT to explore the situation from the POINT of VIEW of the ALIEN.

It was to EXPLORE it from the VIEW POINT of a HUMAN who fell IN LOVE with what appeared to be another HUMAN.

Because we the VIEWERS are also HUMANS who wouldn't be able to RELATE very well to the other ALIEN point of view.

And that's also what YOU IGNORE.

How WE the VIEWERS can't RELATE very well to a CREATURE like that who doesn't see things in the SAME WAY as we do.

Which BEVERLY also made it CLEAR to the ALIEN lifeform when she explained to it how there were just TOO MANY CHANGES that she couldn't ADJUST TO due to her being a member of the SPECIES that she belonged to.

Leave it to you to once again COMPLETELY MISS the MAIN point and ZERO in on another different one again that has little to nothing to do with the other MAIN ISSUE that's now being discussed.

The alien or human POV issue doesn't really matter because they have the same things within the Trill too. Indeed, it's basically "illegal" - worse, really - for joined Trills to "cozy up" with past partners that have changed host, as was shown in at least one episode of DS9. Why blame Beverly for some kind of "intolerance" that the Trill share amongst themselves?

For example, from the episode "Rejoined":

In Quark's, Kira and Bashir explain to a confused Quark that Dax's previous host Torias was married to Kahn's previous host Nilani. However Torias was killed in a shuttle accident and Nilani became a widow. When Nilani died, the Kahn symbiont was passed on to Lenara. Kira can not understand why Dax and Kahn can not simply "pick up where they left off", but Bashir explains that it is strictly against the rules of Trill society to acknowledge it in any way. Rekindling a relationship with a love from a past life is called Reassociation, and the Trill feel it is unnatural as the point of joining is to allow the symbiont to accumulate experiences from many lifetimes. When moving from host to host, the symbiont must learn to let go of the past and move on from family and loved ones. Kira believes there must have been some Trill who have reassociated and there have: they were exiled from Trill society and their symbionts died with them. There is nothing more important for a joined Trill than to protect the life of the symbiont and therefore Bashir believes Dax will not and cannot act on any feelings she has.

@Invidia , I mentioned Oduntula/TheSpear because you keep talking as if the Picard show may never be made based on the rantings of some angry guys on the internet and s/he posted a good explanation as to why these guys have a vested interest in their negativity.

Anyway, does this look like Picard will never make it to the screen? https://covers.magazinecloner.com/covers/184843.jpg

@Invidia ; REALLY??? HOW SO??? In what way??? I can't even recall WHO is GAY on that show. If the MATE of BORTUS was BORN FEMALE like you say, then isn't he TECHNICALLY also still in a RELATIONSHIP with a FEMALE??? She may have been SURGICALLY ALTERTERED, but is she REALLY a MALE???

We have a Krill society that is a mono gender society and that disapproves of hetrosexual relationships(like in that TNG episode I wrote about earlier where btw the main interest gets a similar treatment although she is not surgically altered her society was female but she was send to some re-education camp not unlike those camps you have in the US where gays are "brainwashed"to become hetro ).The difference in case of TO is that the writers choose to have the baby be of female gender in a society that all but consists of males and where hetrosexual relationships are not allowed therefore there is a problem that creates conflict .Are we as parents allowed to place gender affirmative roles onto our children and have parents got the right to decide to change the gender of their children just because society ism ore favorable to one gender or the other or worse a society dictates this?These are the questions TO wants us to raise.

What's the MOST INTERESTING about that COUPLE is the way BORTUS is the one with the FEMININE PERSONALITY TRAITS ( because he's MORE KIND, COMPASSIONATE, and NURTURING), whereas his MATE has more MASCULINE PERSONALITY TRAITS (is much more AGGRESSIVE and WARLIKE). And those MASCULINE PERSONALITY TRAITS have also been passed on to their OFFSPRING now (who was also BORN FEMALE and then SURGICALLY ALTERED to be a MALE).

Interesting yes but I don't know if we can all put it down onto genetics I think environment also plays a very important part and these traits could also be a product of thousands of years of gender-affirmative conditioning. by parents who were never learned to look beyond the limitations of of their gender or sexuality.

So WHY does it MATTER WHAT SEX someone is when it also HAS NOTHING to do with what kind of a PERSONALITY they have??? Because FEMALES can also be MUCH MORE WARLIKE and AGGRESSIVE than MALES, and MALES can also be much more COMPASSIONATE, KIND, and UNDERSTANDING than FEMALES.

I agree that sexuality or gender has nothing to do with a persons personality but to blame it all on genetics in my opinion is too simple the environment and how one was raised have a large influence on the creation of personality.

AS you can see by what's been said ABOVE, ONE has also just EXPLAINED the reason why that is NOT SO. Because the WRITERS for BOTH SHOWS have also told us INTERESTING, THOUGHT PROVOKING STORIES that include such themes.

What has DISC done with the fact that Stamnets and Dr. Hugh are in a same sex relationship or what for groundbreaking stories were told by DISC where the gender or race of our main character is highlighted? The only message one has got from DISC about these issues is that there are no issues like I said previously the biggest mistake that GR made was that there was this golden rule on TNG of no conflict between main characters so without a protagonist and an antagonist ,therefore no opportunity for tension drama and above all conflict.Conflict in my opinion is the best tool a writer has to drive home a point to get the readers or viewers to stop and ask questions about what the message it is the writers want to bring across. See above as example with what I mean with confrontational manner in which the writers of TO try to bring across a message. Part of the reason why one still likes TOS and ENT is where we see the captain as a mediator of often two or more opposing ideas,solutions or perspectives (in the case of Kirk Bones and Spock in the case of Archer,T'Pol,Trip or the most suitable person to judge in case of weapons ,tactics and security it is Malcolm in the matter of medical related issues it is Phlox etc)

WHY do you see TO as being MORE CONFRONTATIONAL??? Which characters are MORE CONFRONTATIONAL??? In comparison to WHAT OTHER CHARACTERS in DSC???

See explanation and example above.

But it's also still the FEMALE (turned MALE) who is the MOST MASCULINE and AGGRESSIVE character of ALL 4 of them.

I agree Georgiou was and still is one of the more interesting characters of DISC plus every time Michelle Yeoh is on screen she chews up the scenery and it looks like Miss Yeah has fun in playing her which definitely comes across.Plus in most stories the bad guys/girls are usually the far more interesting characters plus I guess we humans do have a fascination for the dark side or bad side of human nature (this is what the movie Natural Born Killers by Oliver Stone is about where mass media often serves as a catalyst to ignite the fire even more) Marshall McLuhan wrote some interesting books on that topic.

So the CLAIM you put forth that TO has the MOST CONFRONTATIONAL APPROACH when DSC has the MOST AGGRESSIVE CHARACTER can also be DISPUTED on just that BASIS alone.

No that is not one meant with confrontational I meant the stories and the topics TO delves into are up front there is very little allusion or metaphors it is in your face about the issues it deals with so the viewer can't mistake what the issues that the story raises is about .

Because, imo, the EMPRESS is also THE MOST CONFRONTATIONAL character that we've encountered in BOTH SHOWS (unless you also want to INCLUDE the ROBOTS which also ARE NOT ORGANIC LIFE FORMS)???

Like I said Empress Georgiou is by far the most engaging and fun character,simply because she loves to be evil but has that got anything to do with LGBT or race related issues IMO not it is far more how the character was written and how she acts as far as we know her sexuality is somewhat sketchy in season one it is heavily suggested she likes females but in season 2 we get the scene with Stamnets and Hugh where she talks about what she calls being intersexual or omnisexual and that she and MU Stamnets and Hugh has some fun times together(I immediately can see Georgiou with a strap on and you know the rest ....)

But SINCE BEVERLY had NOT BEEN BOTH SEXES and had MOST LIKELY also NEVER HAD SEX before with another FEMALE, she was NOT ABLE to UNDERSTAND the ALIEN POV or deal with the way the PERSON she FELL in LOVE with had been TRANSFORMED into A FEMALE.

FOR BEVERLY the SEX of a PERSON STILL MATTERED to her.

For the ALIEN, the SEX of a PERSON DID NOT MATTER.

And therein LIES the REASON WHY telling the STORY from the ALIEN POV would NOT WORK.

Because for MOST HUMANS the SEX of someone still MATTERS a GREAT DEAL to them.

But the EMPERESS in DSC also doesn't CARE which sex someone is and is WILLING to have SEX with BOTH SEXES (which was also PROVEN when she CHOSE to have sex with BOTH the MALE and the FEMALE STRIPPERS on the KLINGON HOME WORLD).

it's basically "illegal" - worse, really - for joined Trills to "cozy up" with past partners that have changed host

And WHAT'S the REASON for this???

Because if that's the CASE, then the ALIEN who dates BEVERLY was BREAKING the LAW when he still tried to keep DATING HER after he had the NEW FEMALE HOST body.

Why blame Beverly for some kind of "intolerance" that the Trill share amongst themselves?

WHERE did anyone say they BLAMED BEVERLY for the ALL TOO HUMAN RESPONSE she had when SHE REJECTED the guy she FELL in LOVE with after he tried to CONTINUE HIS RELATIONSHIP with her once he's been PLACED into the BODY of a FEMALE HOST???

I think you make an interesting point here to describe the way in which TO and DISC differ ,TO tells the story from Beverly's POV and DISC tells the story from the Trills POV. Georgiou is a self declared omnisexual.

And WHAT'S the REASON for this???

That was explained in DS9