"I disagree with your hypothesis."

You don't understand my hypothesis. Clearly you have your opinions about immigration etc that is NOT my argument!. My point about the border kids is THE RULE OF LAW which is being pissed on when indefinite imprisonment is given to either lawful asylum seekers or unlawful illegal immigrants. There is such a thing a habeaus corpus. When a leader starts glossing over the ROL regarding prisoner treatment and imprisonment and caging of innocent children that is a CLEAR sign of a dictator. It does not matter WHAT you think they have done or whose fault it is. Civilized nations don't act like that! 3rd world despots do! You don't want to wait until the tanks are on the street to recognize this because by then it will be too late!

"I'm just curious, what were the gun laws like in those countries you visited?"

No, they did not have guns like citizens do here but I'll tell you what: having been on the wrong end of one, wielded by a soldier, UNEXPECTEDLY and in a strange land, I do not think the gun-toters here have a chance (even with a 10 to 1 gun ratio) But we'll just have to agree to disagree on this score. Hopefully, neither of us will be proven right.

"I get that's what happens in the book but do you honestly think the people would go for that in real life? "

Again, the actual THING that precipitates the tyranny is NOT THE POINT! It could be skin color, eye color, food, heat, drought, The cause is NOT the issue. This is FICTION. We have to suspend disbelief slightly and assume whatever the cause, it caused the effect. Now, my point is that in this emergency situation it will be EASIER for a despotic ruler to a) get many politicians on his side, b) get the judges who will side with him, c) bamboozle the masses by demagogy or race baiting etc. It is EASIER for that despot to CONSOLIDATE his power until it becomes the well oiled machine we see in Gilead, when this despot has already been allowed to flout our ROL perhaps because his previous targets were immigrants or minorities. THAT IS THE REAL DANGER. Whatever he does will not be so strange after all. I also believe it is our ability to challenge this despot with our current laws that will save us, not our guns!

When you have witnessed certain things in REAL LIFE you realize how fleeting this life really is. The way these things happen it is NOT like in the movies; it is NOT broadcast on the News or advertised 3 weeks prior. Everything is fine and normal, until suddenly one day you are staring at gun and being told to go over there, having lost all control and independence. Re-watch episode 10 , I think. June says it "we did not see this coming, although ALL the signs were there" as they were rounding up her workmates. Of course the signs ARE ALWAYS there it is just that NOBODY EVER BOTHERS TO SEE THEM!!!!

@Thespear said:

"I disagree with your hypothesis."

You don't understand my hypothesis. Clearly you have your opinions about immigration etc that is NOT my argument!. My point about the border kids is THE RULE OF LAW which is being pissed on when indefinite imprisonment is given to either lawful asylum seekers or unlawful illegal immigrants. There is such a thing a habeaus corpus. When a leader starts glossing over the ROL regarding prisoner treatment and imprisonment and caging of innocent children that is a CLEAR sign of a dictator. It does not matter WHAT you think they have done or whose fault it is. Civilized nations don't act like that! 3rd world despots do! You don't want to wait until the tanks are on the street to recognize this because by then it will be too late!

Now I don't even think YOU understand your hypothesis because you are conflating two different things. The taking over a country with low birth rates and illegal immigrants are two separate issues you are trying to conflate based on "rule of law" as your argument but, as I stated, the immigrant situation has been going on for years and hasn't had nearly the impact of a government takeover or a non-existent national birthrate would.

Around half of US voters don't want open borders because there are lots of obvious negative impacts to society that come with illegal immigration which is why so many people are against it. I'd wager close to zero voters would be in favor of a government takeover and their women made into rape slaves. But sure keep on making the comparison as I know you will.

"I'm just curious, what were the gun laws like in those countries you visited?"

No, they did not have guns like citizens do here but I'll tell you what: having been on the wrong end of one, wielded by a soldier, UNEXPECTEDLY and in a strange land, I do not think the gun-toters here have a chance (even with a 10 to 1 gun ratio) But we'll just have to agree to disagree on this score. Hopefully, neither of us will be proven right.

Dude you're making my point for me! You're talking about having a gun pointed at you by a solider in another country. Please answer me, what were the gun laws in that country? If the solider knows you're unlikely to have a gun of course he's going to feel confident about pointing his gun at you because an unarmed populace has no real power. An armed populace will always outnumber the military. Are you in the US now? If so do you have a gun permit and a legally registered firearm? Because if you don't you're willing allowing yourself to be put back in that situation if a Gilead were to rise up.

I'll restate my argument: I'm not saying Gilead couldn't happen in another country, but it certainly couldn't happen in the US without removing guns from citizens. This is also why so many people aren't in favor of banning guns despite mass shootings because without access to guns the government could theoretically do what that soldier did to you.

"I get that's what happens in the book but do you honestly think the people would go for that in real life? "

Again, the actual THING that precipitates the tyranny is NOT THE POINT! It could be skin color, eye color, food, heat, drought, The cause is NOT the issue. This is FICTION.

That's not an argument. I totally realize it's fiction but that doesn't mean I automatically have to buy into it. 1984 is fiction but it takes place in a totally different society, same with Hunger Games or Fahrenheit 415 or The Giver or a million other books. The problem is this story isn't set in a fictional society or a non-US country where it would make more sense, THAT is my problem. The premise is interesting an fairly topical, but not when it's set in the US, not without a lot of backstory to explain how we got there.

When you have witnessed certain things in REAL LIFE you realize how fleeting this life really is. The way these things happen it is NOT like in the movies; it is NOT broadcast on the News or advertised 3 weeks prior. Everything is fine and normal, until suddenly one day you are staring at gun and being told to go over there, having lost all control and independence.

Very true, I'm not saying it totally 100% couldn't happen, I'm saying the book doesn't present a plausible way that it would happen. The story is lazy and doesn't put in the work to properly set up a world where Gilead could come into power and make it believable because that's not the point, Atwood just wanted to create a world where women were suddenly turned into chattel and all the men went along with it because men = bad and didn't put any real thought into it beyond that.

As for a real life Gilead happening in the US? No way. They're not about to take women's rights away the same way they're not about to go back to reinstating slavery. Even factoring in a huge catastrophe I would never bet on a Gilead government taking over and lasting more than an hour.

As much as people online like to whine about xenophobia/homophobia/misogyny/racism/sexism/racism things are constantly getting better in the US, the divide is largely rooted in political ideology.

"I'd wager close to zero voters would be in favor of a government takeover and their women made into rape slaves."

You don't understand TYRANNY and you are STILL thinking that Gilead exist because the 'voters'(the people of Gilead) are in favor of 'rape slaves'. The people of Gilead are NOT in a democracy! Their government is NOT elected by popular vote! What Gilead depicts is when those in power have usurped their authority and are legitimizing their authority at the point of the gun! You say 'rape slaves' will NOT be tolerated even though they were in the past. There was a time when there was widespread government sanctioned 'slave raping' in THIS country! Do you think the people then were any less enlightened, intelligent, moral?

"Around half of US voters don't want open borders because there are lots of obvious negative impacts to society that come with illegal immigration "

Arguable point, however let's assume this is 100% correct. THAT IS NOT the point of mentioning the border kids in relation to Gilead. Their mention has to do with the Rule of Law. The ROL are the basic tenets that STOP a lawful society from descending into an UNLAWFUL one (like Gilead) . Because no one should be unjustifiable detained, it protects us ALL not just the border kids! If 50% of voters are willing to have the ROL suspended because , as you say, they dislike illegal immigration, it still means they are allowing a government to go outside the law....only because the like what they are doing. That is NOT how a lawful society operates.

If you watch THT carefully you will see many characters attempt to defend the actions of the Gilead government. There will ALWAYS be rational explanations for even the most brutal actions. THAT is why adherence to certain civil rights are SO IMPORTANT and something that should be ALWAYS UPHELD in a democracy. There will always be talking heads available to defend the greatest cruelty, that is why certain things are NEVER left to persuasion. Once you begin to allow a government to flout the ROL or suspend Habeaus Corpus willy nilly, in ONE situation, it's a slippery slope from there.

Again with the guns! What do you think soldiers do when confronted with the enemy carrying guns? Do they say "Oh well, these people have guns, let's pack it in"? Not even the NRA has missiles, tanks and cluster bombs ALL of which these soldiers have used before to suppress much more heavily armed resistance than the average gun holder can muster. But dream on if you want!

The answer is NOT to say, "if they try it anything, we will fight back". If you let it get to that point, you have lost already. Consider if a anti-gun government wanted to defeat the gun holders.

"As much as people online like to whine about xenophobia/homophobia/misogyny/racism/sexism/racism things are constantly getting better in the US, the divide is largely rooted in political ideology."

Wow, if you simply state something like that without making ANY attempt to support it I have to assume you REALLY want it to be put out there as an undeniable FACT. I am particularly curious to hear why you think things are 'getting better' Have you seen or conducted any comparative studies or are you simply making a guess based on your own personal anecdotal evidence? Finally, how does the fact that the divide is largely rooted in 'political ideology' makes things any 'better'?

@Thespear said:

"I'd wager close to zero voters would be in favor of a government takeover and their women made into rape slaves."

You don't understand TYRANNY and you are STILL thinking that Gilead exist because the 'voters'(the people of Gilead) are in favor of 'rape slaves'. The people of Gilead are NOT in a democracy! Their government is NOT elected by popular vote!

This is where the 2nd amendment comes into play. According to the book the Gilead government suspends the Constitution. At that very moment we are talking about civil war. Texas, for example, would most likely split into its own government and not recognize Gilead. California wouldn't recognize this government. New York wouldn't recognize this government. The armed citizens of the US outnumber the military. Are you seriously going to ignore the numbers?

As long as the people have access to guns any dictatorship that tries to take over the government will fail.

Arguable point, however let's assume this is 100% correct. THAT IS NOT the point of mentioning the border kids in relation to Gilead. Their mention has to do with the Rule of Law. The ROL are the basic tenets that STOP a lawful society from descending into an UNLAWFUL one (like Gilead) . Because no one should be unjustifiable detained, it protects us ALL not just the border kids!

The point you need to realize is that illegal immigrants aren't US citizens, they are for lack of a better word invaders, so although they should be treated humanely they're still not US citizens, if they were US citizens and were being treated unfairly there would be far more political consequences for those detention facilities and THAT is the point I am making, and ESPECIALLY when it comes to women.

Are you trying to tell me that when Gilead shows up to round up your mother, sister, aunt, daughter, wife/girlfriend, niece etc, you're just going to let them? If you hear Gilead saying they are suspending women's rights denying them jobs would you just go along with it?

Just think about this logically. I feel I should give Atwood's novel a pass because we didn't have the internet back then, but in 2019 we do so word of this would spread all over Twitter and Facebook instantly. Gilead would have to shut down the internet or police it China-style. The MOMENT that happens you are looking at civil unrest, factor in Gilead took over the government after the president and congress were all killed so they weren't elected. US citizens wouldn't sit back and let this happen as long as they have their guns.

I hate to repeat myself but I can't bother responding to the rest of your argument because you have not yet convinced me that my argument is invalid. A dictator can't control the US unless the citizens allow it to happen, and as long as they have their guns they wouldn't. Gilead would have to take their guns and I just don't see that happening especially once they start uprooting women and girls from their homes.

It would be civil war. I can not stress this enough. And frankly I find that aspect of this story to be more interesting than the Handmaids Tale. It's also one of the reasons why I've gone from pro-gun control to anti-gun control even though I don't personally own a gun. As long as US citizens have access to guns a dictatorship would be doomed to fail because the citizens with guns outnumber the police and the military.

If you honestly for real think Gilead could happen in real life I suggest you get a gun license and register for a legal firearm.

Thankfully our US constitution gives certain rights to EVERYONE regardless of citizenship status. A democracy does not allow things because ENOUGH people don't find them distasteful, tin pot dictatorships do. This is why we have 3 coequal branches of government to discourage tyranny.

It is mostly hinted at in THT but not everyone who supports the system in Gilead is a true believer but it is clear that there are checks and balances to ensure that everyone stays in line. The "under his eye" mantra is part of that. Prescribed speech to further the indoctrination. Gilead is not formed by coercing every citizen from day one. They take the most gullible; make them feel like Gilead is on their side and then gradually take away their rights one by one. Read George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' for an example of how the masses can be first cajoled , then controlled and finally oppressed , even without a shot being fired!

Since you are convinced that the world best equipped, most powerful fighting force will be deterred by civilian numbers, I will not try to persuade you otherwise, I will remind you though that even the framers of the US constitution who created the 2nd Amendment envisioned a "well regulated militia" to confront the government. I admire your confidence in America's gun owners especially since you say you are not one yourself.

I think your REAL mistake is that you make some assumptions that are not in evidence. First, you appear to think the reason Gilead rulers have not been overthrown is because they have the tacit approval of the majority in Gilead. Like the US "citizens" you suggests would have delivered 'political consequences' if the border children weren't 'invaders', you seem to think most Gileadans tolerate the raping and maiming etc. This may be why you find the premise unrealistic. I think nothing could be farther from the truth. It seems clear to me, even though the risks are high, most of the residents in Gilead are increasingly ready to do whatever it takes. You also seem to assume a sudden change from, normal everyday life one day, to rape and blinding the next. Again, the THT producers make it clear in June's words that "the signs were there" and it was a gradual thing. Apathy clearly played a big part in Gilead's establishment, as June admits but Complacency also probably played a part as well. You know, thinking that this could NEVER happen in America, only in other places.

I find it incredibly disingenuous how you've turned this discussion into a debate about illegal immigrants, especially since I know if illegal immigrants showed up on your doorstep looking for food and shelter you wouldn't let them in, let alone if the government forced you to house illegal immigrants indefinitely.

This is just one big virtue signal from someone who sacrifices nothing by preaching support for people openly breaking the law and expecting not to suffer consequences for the breaking of those laws. If Gilead were to become a real thing I would bet you would be one of the handful of people advocating for the new government since you have no problem fighting for law breakers.

Thankfully there are far more people in the US with enough sense to not let that happen and there are more and more people waking up to that realization every day. Perhaps one day you will wake up too. Good day to you.

I told you I am NOT fighting for illegals, I am trying to show you where the RULE of LAW is being infringed upon and alert you to the dangers of that in a FREE society! I noticed however you have NOTHING to argue in defeating that and NOTHING to say about the 3 other paragraphs I wrote where I detailed how and why TYRANNY can easily become established because a blind populace can't see what is right in front of them.

You revert right back to this notion that people who believe like you do on this SINGULAR issue are in the majority and therefore they will carry the day. Mob rule in other words! Well sir , it is EXACTLY THAT KIND OF THINKING that will allow a Gilead-like regime to take over any country. Stupid people who believe a despot has ANY interest in THEM just because he sings a tune they like!!!

'Gilead is doomed to fail'? I would say Gilead is here already:

https://on.msnbc.com/330S3Qt

Agree

@Thespear said:

'Gilead is doomed to fail'? I would say Gilead is here already:

https://on.msnbc.com/330S3Qt

I disagree. Although I personally think abortion shouldn't be totally illegal, you don't have to get an abortion if you use a condom, use the pill, use an iud, use Plan B, use a diaphragm, etc.

Gilead is all about taking women's rights away, kicking women out of the work force and removing their spending power which in itself would crash the economy given women spend far more then men and thus hold the majority of the debt. If we are talking post-apocalyptic Mad Max world then ok I can see it but not with a functioning formally democratic government.

The primary reason the women in THT are turned into rape slaves is because there's a massive fertility issue which, in 2019, would be more easily solved in a lab with clones or getting women to volunteer to have babies in exchange for monetary gain. It would be less expensive to just pay women to conceive then crash the economy by eliminating 50%+ of the work force and forcing companies and banks to eat the unpaid debt and serious lack of labor.

As for THT the whole "take over the government by force and make women into slaves" idea wouldn't work even under the pretext of a fertility crisis, at least not in the US with a well armed populace. Wait I feel like I've made this argument before. Oh right because I did and it was never refuted because I'm right. As a fantasy "what if" story THT is interesting but it lacks any believable back story to support it. But Atwood's rich now so I doubt she cares.

And lastly if you're a woman in the US and you live in state that restrictions you from killing your baby then just go to another state that doesn't restrict you from killing your baby, there are plenty of them to choose from.

You have completely missed the point of my statement. I am not saying Today's society matches Gilead exactly. What I am saying is that the 'seeds' of a successful Gilead are already being planted in today's society. Perhaps you have read books like "Animal Farm" by George Orwell. In it you see clearly how the laudable, justifiable goals of a 'people' (the farm animals) are usurped by unscrupulous rulers (the pigs) and slowly, gradually, manipulated to become the oppression of these same people. Again I am NOT saying Animal Farm is THT or today's society. I am saying you can see the same path of development in them. Also, I see more than just the sexual slavery and subjugation of women, to varying degrees in THT. I see an entire society that has abandoned the Rule of Law under the guise of some pseudo- religious cult like fanaticism meant to save mankind, which really subjugates everyone but a ruling class.

Having established those parameters you can agree how (as in the e.g. I gave) finding justification to track women's menstrual cycles is the start of such a slippery slope to oppression. There is no earthly reason for any non doctor to track women's menstrual cycle. Yet, TODAY we have a real life example of people doing exactly that. We also know of politicians insisting on medically unnecessary intrusive examinations in a bid to restrict abortions. This is indeed the modus operandi of THT. Women are forcibly subject to all sorts of indignities...for the greater good of Gilead! This is where tyrannies start. Women have historically been oppressed , in many societies today they still are and so it is easier for those seeking to take away rights to start there, but they won't stop there.

I'll move out larger to your point about guns and gun possession. Your point is that we will never get to the THT point where even the men are forced to be either soldier enforcers or part of the ruling elite oppressing women ( as in Gilead) because many Americans own guns which they will not willingly give up. There again, if you read Animal Farm, nothing happens suddenly or in one day, or week or month. The animals slowly began to notice how their Revolutionary Rules were being altered night after night. Some were curious, even suspicious but in Animals Farm there were always the propagandists ready to whip up the necessary patriotic passion with lies and disinformation. When that didn't work, some animals noticed other animals who had spoken up recently and questioned the Pigs (the rulers) suddenly disappeared. Their exit was quickly explained by the propagandists and the animals accepted ( what else could they do?). The propagandists today are the media, the talking heads, shock jocks and radio personalities who seem to have a concerted song sheet from which they are singing. Today we have two sides but imagine the situation where one side is completely discredited as "Fake News" or prosecuted by a wholly own, non independent Justice Department. Imagine when whistle blowers are exposed and hunted down; Imagine William Barr initiating 'investigations' on MSNBC and finding Rachel Maddow and company guilty of treason. No, we are not there...yet but Barr has started a totally unnecessary investigation of the President's enemies. and the President has already made it clear he thinks a Free independent press is 'the enemy of the people' or part of the 'deep state'. These are the hallmarks of tyrannous dictatorships all over planet earth. If you think guns or a constitution 90% of the people know little about will save this country, you have NOT been paying attention.

Finally, to directly address your points about guns. If you seriously think ANY modern army is going tremble in fear at the thought of disarming a mostly lightly armed civilian militia, you do not understand modern warfare and have no idea of the kinds of munitions available to the US military. Killing off the 30 million gun owning resistors will be the first order of business and after that protests will be sporadic and insignificant, as it no doubt is in Gilead.

The answer to TYRANNY is not waving guns after the fact, but standing up for the Rule of Law for EVERYONE now! That means ensuring that the Rule Of Law is maintained for Asylum Seekers; undocumented aliens; the LGBTQA community; religious minorities; cultural minorities BECAUSE, these groups are the canary in the coal mine when it comes to guarding Democracy. These groups are the the most vulnerable and that's where tyranny usually starts. As soon as you notice THESE people's rights being regularly infringed upon FOR ANY REASON, understand that tyranny is upon us. When attacks on these people increase; are treated with nonchalance by those in authority; or thinly veiled attempts are made by those in power to encourage such attacks know that GILEAD is upon us.

Now if you look at what has happened in the US in the past few years, can you really say Gilead is unrealistic? Please note that EVERYTHING depicted in THT is based of factual events that have already been documented in human society. What makes you think we are any different?

Well said.

@Thespear said:

You have completely missed the point of my statement. I am not saying Today's society matches Gilead exactly. What I am saying is that the 'seeds' of a successful Gilead are already being planted in today's society.

No you're wrong any being delusional. This is a perfect example of victim mentality. Our current society is totally in favor of women over men even at the detriminent of others including children which is exactly why a Gilead society will never happen even in the face of a fertility crisis because we have science to solve it.

You're just one one of those conspiracy people who doesn't understand how society works or how real people think.

"Ad Hominem" attacks are the surest sign you've lost the argument. Your reliance on science as the 'solution' to Gilead is the surest sign you don't understand Gilead and your reference to 'real' people is best indication of the kind of person you are! ( there are no UNreal people)

@Thespear said:

"Ad Hominem" attacks are the surest sign you've lost the argument. Your reliance on science as an'solution' to Gilead is the surest sign you don't understand Gilead and your reference to 'real' people is best indication of the kind of person you are! ( there are no UNreal people)

You should know, you've mastered it. I'm just tired of repeating myself and having you ignore my perfectly valid and realistic points. A Gilead type government could only happen in the US with the destruction of the constitution over an extended period of time, and presently it isn't the right wing that's trying to ban the 1st and 2nd amendments which would be the two main parts of the constitution that would prevent a Gilead from taking root, but that doesn't line up with your crazy think so you ignore it.

A Gilead government is more likely to happen in the UK given the influx of people who are very pro-patriachry and anti-women's rights, the country's lack of guns for the citizens, and the government arresting people for speech. If you're seriously worried about a Gilead government the US is the safest place to be so stop complaining like a child.