"I'm just tired of repeating myself and having you ignore my perfectly valid and realistic points." Which are: the attempt to restrict the 1st and 2nd amendments? I assume you are looking at the theoretical threat you see to these two from the Left? To date no new law has been passed to restrict guns or speech.

Well, I am talking NOT about a THEORETICAL THREAT but the REALITY of current Republican policies a) unnecessary vaginal exams and b) tracking menstrual cycles. To name just 2 real life issues which YOU have not bothered to even address. You talk like merely having something on paper is the same as the reality in people's lives. YOU won't address the REALITY of Habeus Corpus being literally suspended for Asylum seekers at the border, but are troubled by the "possibility'" that guns or speech may be abridges at some future date.

You know nothing about the UK govt. They question their PM every week live and in Parliament. Trump hides behind helicopter noise and his KKK rallies! He has not had a proper press conference is ages. Even the pigs in animals Farm had regular meetings. This gross IGNORANCE coupled with the CONCEIT that MY VIEW of every issue IS ALWAYS CORRECT is the toxic mix that has turned the right into a mass of STUPIDITY. Your insistence that GUNS will right all wrongs is beyond obtuse!!

@Thespear said:

"I'm just tired of repeating myself and having you ignore my perfectly valid and realistic points." Which are: the attempt to restrict the 1st and 2nd amendments? I assume you are looking at the theoretical threat you see to these two from the Left? To date no new law has been passed to restrict guns or speech.

Well, I am talking NOT about a THEORETICAL THREAT but the REALITY of current Republican policies a) unnecessary vaginal exams and b) tracking menstrual cycles. To name just 2 real life issues which YOU have not bothered to even address. You talk like merely having something on paper is the same as the reality in people's lives.

What does this have to do with anything? If the women of Missouri don't like it they can vote the politicians out since women make up the majority of voters, or they can go to another state. If you don't like the laws in one state you don't have to stay there. This in no way equals Handmaids Tale.

YOU won't address the REALITY of Habeus Corpus being literally suspended for Asylum seekers at the border, but are troubled by the "possibility'" that guns or speech may be abridges at some future date.

If those people were seeking asylum why didn't they seek it at any of the other countries between where they came from and the US because they're not all from Mexico. Besides you never address the reality that the US is far less likely to become a dictatorship with its first and second amendments in tact, and this is a center left guy saying this.

You know nothing about the UK govt. They question their PM every week live and in Parliament.

Are you talking about the same people that voted to leave the EU meanwhile the government just ignores the will of the people? Because what are the UK citizens going to do if the government doesn't do what the people voted for? Rise up and revolt? With what army?

Trump hides behind helicopter noise and his KKK rallies! He has not had a proper press conference is ages.

I'm not even a Trump guy and I can clearly see he doesn't have KKK rallies. Hell I'm not even white and I can see that. I don't like him but I don't hate him either, but I can see the media hates him the same way they hate Bernie Sanders and Tulsi Gabbard . None of this has anything to do with men taking women's rights away and establishing a Gilead because it'll never happen.

However I will make a prediction. The US will become more conservative over the next few decades for 2 reasons. The first is crazy people like you who make me want to leave the left because you're all about victim mentality and believing all women are helpless and all men are predators and you're all for turning little boys into girls to show how woke and progressive you are.

The second reason is because the right are having far more kids while the left aren't having almost any kids thanks to crazy left wing feminists who are constantly aborting their children and driving wedges between men by painting them as rapists or potential rapists and falsely #MeToo'ing them with bogus allegations. And the ones that do have children become single mothers that end up raising crazy kids that shoot up schools or become insane incels.

As I said, Gilead won't happen because the left is going to abort itself out of existence and the only women having kids will be women that actually see motherhood as a blessing and not a tool of the patriarchy. I mean we've got beautiful rich successful women like Emma Watson pretending she's happy being single and childless because she's bought into the region of radical feminism so much, it's terrible.

The point of your last but one response was that I do not squarely address YOUR points, specifically about the 1st and 2nd amendments. However your latest response was essentially to evade each of the arguments I bring up in response. I'll start from the top, remember, this is a thread essentially about how and why Gilead might become a reality in the US :

First, your response to the Missouri women who are CURRENTLY having their privacy invaded by mostly , male white politicians in furtherance of a religious belief, is that they are outvoted; they should move. Have you ever heard of Human Rights? or protection for the Minority? Separation of church and State? I guess not.

Second, you are clearly also very ignorant about the US Asylum laws and provisions. I will add a link for you to review, if you are interested. For our purposes here I will tell you that US law allows for ANYONE the right to apply for asylum while in the US....ANYONE from ANYWHERE as long are they are in the US. Incidentally, point of the Asylum seekers is that OUR laws should NEVER be abridged by ANYONE for ANY reason, like we see in Gilead and at the US border.

Third, my reference to Trump hiding from the press was because you mentioned the UK govt as an example of a failed govt, because the citizens don't own as many guns. Your point about their constitutional debate over Brexit, however messy it might seem to you, is NOT a weakness but a strength, something you clearly don't understand. It's the way civilized people resolve differences WITHOUT resorting to violence... in the first place.

Fourth, Trump doesn't support a central tenet of Democracy, he doesn't believe in a Free Press. He hides from formal questions, refuses to let his underlings be questioned in court. Can you imagine the overlords in Gilead submitting to a free and open press or to a court? No, I can't either.

Fifth, whether or not you are a Trump supporter or are a white man does not QUALIFY you to declare that his rallies are NOT KKK rallies. You can THINK they are not but what might help you convince others that your views of Trump and his rallies are correct is if you had perhaps explained why in his rallies they chant "Send them back" about 4 minority women politicians ( if it's not racist) Or perhaps you could explain why his rallies are filled with mostly white supporters. Or if you could put his "shit hole countries " and his many, many other comments denigrating black people generally into some NON RACIST context. Perhaps if you explained why he refused to back down from advocating the death penalty for the Central Park 5, even after they were exonerated. That would help you convince people he is not racist, not the mere fact that of YOUR specific sex and race! And btw, the press reporting the facts about Trump or Sanders or Garbbard, does not mean they hate them. That kind of leap, without specifics is merely....propagandizing. For our purposes, the issue of Trump and Racism is NOT relevant however. What is RELEVANT is his ability and tendency to rabble rouse huge populations to chants that call for the infringement of the rights of others! This is SURELY a small step away from the population of Gilead acquiescing to the enslavement of women and indoctrination of girls! THAT'S the RELEVANCE to Trump's rallies!!!!! " Under his eye"= "Send them back!"

Finally, let's talk about YOU. You have revealed a lot about yourself. You are a person who watches THT steadfastly refuses to see ANY possibility that it could become a reality in the US today. Your main reason is that the US populace is armed. Any clear thinking person understands that the small arms of even a 'well regulated militia', can pose no serious threat to ANY modern army, let alone the most powerful one in the world! So why do you resist the thought of a possible Gilead reality so much? One would think that someone watching the show would be at least concerned with that possibility and would also be sympathetic to the victims of Gilead. Well let's consider your other views.

Apparently you are very concerned that women having abortions to 'drive wedges' with their 'men'. You are concerned with rapists being accused of rape and others being 'wrongfully' accused of rape and of the #Metoo movement. You are concerned about young males being overly feminized and afraid of a female being single and 'happy'. You don't like victims but you are very concerned with men being falsely accused and don't like woke or progressive people. NEWSFLASH! most REAL men see NOTHING to fear with the things you apparently are very concerned about. You say you are a reluctant lefty but honestly, your core values fit more with the people you are defending and those are the oppressors!

And who are the oppressors? They are the Patriarchs of Gilead; the systems of Gilead; the mentality of Gilead; the oppression of Gilead. You view the world in sordid absolutes that are similar to the views of Gilead, especially regarding women and reproduction. Unlike most humans who watch THT and sympathize with the victims, you castigate women in the real world who face similar situations. Your sympathies are with the men in the real world who commit similar acts as the Gilead oppressors; your criticism is for the women and their movements in your real world. I wonder, who do you REALLY root for while you watch Gilead?

Here is the Asylum link. Please educate yourself:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_in_the_United_States

Yeah I knew you wouldn't listen. The Trump Derangement Syndrome is strong in you. After people like you have driven the sensible people away with your religious fervor and after you've grown up a bit and gotten out of your bubble maybe you'll listen. Or not. It doesn't really matter because you're wrong, provably wrong, and the things you believe are happening/going to happen never will. And I bet you think the same about me except I used to be in your exact same mindset back in college until I actually got out into the real world and saw and experienced how things really are.

But if I'm wrong I can at least admit that I was wrong. Unlike some people.

Because I listened very carefully to you, I was able to accurately reveal your true motivations. That is why you can't respond to my assessment of you. I took pains to explain how Trump's behavior is relevant AND irrelevant to our discussion, how could you miss it? I am an atheist so where did you get my 'religious fervor' from? I can assure you I was better educated and had more relevant life experience than you do now....before you were born.

"A little learning is a dangerous thing, Drink deep or taste not the Pierian Spring; Where shallow draughts, intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again" A. Pope. (Google it!)

Notwithstanding your trans-formative experience, I would urge you to always " Drink deep", my friend!

@cswood said:

@Thespear said:

"Ad Hominem" attacks are the surest sign you've lost the argument. Your reliance on science as an'solution' to Gilead is the surest sign you don't understand Gilead and your reference to 'real' people is best indication of the kind of person you are! ( there are no UNreal people)

You should know, you've mastered it. I'm just tired of repeating myself and having you ignore my perfectly valid and realistic points. A Gilead type government could only happen in the US with the destruction of the constitution over an extended period of time, and presently it isn't the right wing that's trying to ban the 1st and 2nd amendments which would be the two main parts of the constitution that would prevent a Gilead from taking root, but that doesn't line up with your crazy think so you ignore it.

A Gilead government is more likely to happen in the UK given the influx of people who are very pro-patriachry and anti-women's rights, the country's lack of guns for the citizens, and the government arresting people for speech. If you're seriously worried about a Gilead government the US is the safest place to be so stop complaining like a child.

You do realize that world's 99% don't have guns culture like US, right? On the contrary, we people from Europe & basically from the rest of the world are shocked & disgusted by your gun culture.

Nothing's wrong with UK, don't worry, Gillead won't happen here. You better worry about your crazy gunman running almost everyday with guns and mass shooting your fellow citizens left and right & so many weird sects and cults... If there is a chance of Gillead-like government, it will happen in your country.

@Ditendra said:

@cswood said:

@Thespear said:

"Ad Hominem" attacks are the surest sign you've lost the argument. Your reliance on science as an'solution' to Gilead is the surest sign you don't understand Gilead and your reference to 'real' people is best indication of the kind of person you are! ( there are no UNreal people)

You should know, you've mastered it. I'm just tired of repeating myself and having you ignore my perfectly valid and realistic points. A Gilead type government could only happen in the US with the destruction of the constitution over an extended period of time, and presently it isn't the right wing that's trying to ban the 1st and 2nd amendments which would be the two main parts of the constitution that would prevent a Gilead from taking root, but that doesn't line up with your crazy think so you ignore it.

A Gilead government is more likely to happen in the UK given the influx of people who are very pro-patriachry and anti-women's rights, the country's lack of guns for the citizens, and the government arresting people for speech. If you're seriously worried about a Gilead government the US is the safest place to be so stop complaining like a child.

You do realize that world's 99% don't have guns culture like US, right? On the contrary, we people from Europe & basically from the rest of the world are shocked & disgusted by your gun culture.

Nothing's wrong with UK, don't worry, Gillead won't happen here. You better worry about your crazy gunman running almost everyday with guns and mass shooting your fellow citizens left and right & so many weird sects and cults... If there is a chance of Gillead-like government, it will happen in your country.

How's Brexit coming? How many bombings have there been across Europe this year? Still putting dudes in jail for making jokes? Still banning people from having knives? I don't love gun culture either but I'd rather have access to guns then not have access to guns despite the risks the same way I like having access to alcohol and cars despite all the car accidents and alcohol related deaths.

The country constantly having its rights taken away and its votes ignored by the government has no business lecturing the US on its culture.

@cswood said:

@Ditendra said:

@cswood said:

@Thespear said:

"Ad Hominem" attacks are the surest sign you've lost the argument. Your reliance on science as an'solution' to Gilead is the surest sign you don't understand Gilead and your reference to 'real' people is best indication of the kind of person you are! ( there are no UNreal people)

You should know, you've mastered it. I'm just tired of repeating myself and having you ignore my perfectly valid and realistic points. A Gilead type government could only happen in the US with the destruction of the constitution over an extended period of time, and presently it isn't the right wing that's trying to ban the 1st and 2nd amendments which would be the two main parts of the constitution that would prevent a Gilead from taking root, but that doesn't line up with your crazy think so you ignore it.

A Gilead government is more likely to happen in the UK given the influx of people who are very pro-patriachry and anti-women's rights, the country's lack of guns for the citizens, and the government arresting people for speech. If you're seriously worried about a Gilead government the US is the safest place to be so stop complaining like a child.

You do realize that world's 99% don't have guns culture like US, right? On the contrary, we people from Europe & basically from the rest of the world are shocked & disgusted by your gun culture.

Nothing's wrong with UK, don't worry, Gillead won't happen here. You better worry about your crazy gunman running almost everyday with guns and mass shooting your fellow citizens left and right & so many weird sects and cults... If there is a chance of Gillead-like government, it will happen in your country.

How's Brexit coming? How many bombings have there been across Europe this year? Still putting dudes in jail for making jokes? Still banning people from having knives? I don't love gun culture either but I'd rather have access to guns then not have access to guns despite the risks the same way I like having access to alcohol and cars despite all the car accidents and alcohol related deaths.

The country constantly having its rights taken away and its votes ignored by the government has no business lecturing the US on its culture.

Typical ignorant arrogant American. What I find funny, how Americans like you think that their country is best (while in reality it's opposite) and how world goes around them. They live in their bubble and have no idea about rest of the world. Majority of you don't even graduate university. I bet if you stop 10 passengers in the street and ask them where is Finland they won't even find it on the map. Your comparison to bombings to Europe is already a mistake, as you compare one country to a lot of countries. You better start counting your mass shootings in your schools and your homeless people. You don't even have normal healthcare, even your fellow Americans are complaining how horrible it is and how they can't afford to go to doctor (https://www.quora.com/Is-the-healthcare-system-in-the-US-actually-as-bad-as-some-people-say). I know many American expats here who left US and all they say that it was their best decision in their life & they're never looking back. You can't even take care of your homeless people and your cities are drowning in garbage. Tents in the middle of cities, because your people can't even afford for apartments... Shocking. Even in poor European countries you won't find tents, lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTJWdtX90C0&t=30s Suffering from some medieval diseases because of garbage you're living in and you're lecturing us, Europeans about life? rofl, dude, US is a laughing stock in the world. You're not even near to European standards. I won't fall on your level and continue arguing with you. You're not even worth my time...

@cswood said:

@Thespear said:

You have completely missed the point of my statement. I am not saying Today's society matches Gilead exactly. What I am saying is that the 'seeds' of a successful Gilead are already being planted in today's society.

No you're wrong any being delusional. This is a perfect example of victim mentality. Our current society is totally in favor of women over men even at the detriminent of others including children which is exactly why a Gilead society will never happen even in the face of a fertility crisis because we have science to solve it.

You're just one one of those conspiracy people who doesn't understand how society works or how real people think.

A US judge just quoted Animal Farm in her decision that the former White House counsel MUST testify to the congress. We are already living in Gilead and some of you still can't or won't see it. Read!

@cswood said:

@northcoast said:

cswood--

As nerico922 said, some men do get "econowives".

I have not seen this series, only read the book (and saw the 1990 film with Robert Duvall and Natasha Richardson), but in the book, younger men-- soldiers --do get a chance to be assigned a handmaid. There is a scene in the book where all these crying teenage girls (of about age 14) are weeping as they stand in line to be married to eagerly waiting young soldiers. Of course, it is not known at the time if they will turn out to be fertile; if they aren't, presumably they'd be reclassified as econowives, and either their husbands would keep them or the unfertile wives would be reassigned to other men while the soldiers would marry a new wife in the hopes that the new one would be fertile.

Also, in the book's postscript, Gilead indeed does not last very long; if I recall, it collapses about 20 years after its founding, its counterinsurgency operations against various resistance groups ending in failure. In its place are multiple new nations; the United States is never reestablished.

Okay. I haven't read the book, saw the Natasha Richardson movie several years ago and barely remember it, and haven't been keeping up with season 2 and was mostly going off of season 1. I'm not at all surprised Gilead doesn't last in the book because even despite the lower class men getting access to women it still doesn't seem sustainable.

Unless the women allowed it to happen. Okay now I'm going into tinfoil hat territory, but it would be kind of twisted if a large number of women were fine with Gilead. They do address this a bit in the first season where one of the women who had been some kind of druggie/homeless person doesn't think the female subjugation isn't that bad compared to how awful her life used to be, but given the amount of things in the US if women collectively wanted to put up a fight with a enough sympathetic men they could.

Although I'm not a gun person this seems like a great ad for the NRA.

That's funny, I was thinking quite the opposite. I am on the third episode and I just saw the scene where those guys march into an office and tell them that the women need to be let go. Someone makes a comment like, "Do they really need the army for this?" to which someone says, "That's not the army. Well, it's a different kind of army." which suggests these nutbag cultists had easy access to automatic weapons in a society that values gun ownership so much.

Anyone who does not think the scenario portrayed in Gilead is possible, even probable in today's world, is NOT PAYING ATTENTION. 1) Situations like Gilead do not happen in one day: they happen with a gradual dissolution of people's rights 2.) Most American's today are blissfully ignorant of what is happening in their government: THT has many examples where the characters say " I noticed this change but didn't think much of it" 3) When, for example, US Senators (members of one branch of our government) are colluding with the Executive branch to corrupt impartial justice, I would say we are well on our way to legitimizing Gilead!

The Animals in 'Animal Farm' woke up each day and noticed that the words of their Ten Commandments had been altered in some way, but they did not understand what those changes meant. The words " All animals are Equal" had been changed it now read: "All animals are Equal; but some animals are more equal than others"

@Thespear said:

Anyone who does not think the scenario portrayed in Gilead is possible, even probable in today's world, is NOT PAYING ATTENTION. 1) Situations like Gilead do not happen in one day: they happen with a gradual dissolution of people's rights 2.) Most American's today are blissfully ignorant of what is happening in their government: THT has many examples where the characters say " I noticed this change but didn't think much of it" 3) When, for example, US Senators (members of one branch of our government) are colluding with the Executive branch to corrupt impartial justice, I would say we are well on our way to legitimizing Gilead!

The Animals in 'Animal Farm' woke up each day and noticed that the words of their Ten Commandments had been altered in some way, but they did not understand what those changes meant. The words " All animals are Equal" had been changed it now read: "All animals are Equal; but some animals are more equal than others"

Correct. Which is why it is our job, the people's, to keep things in check even when something appears to be just a slight nudge.

@movie_nazi said: That's funny, I was thinking quite the opposite. I am on the third episode and I just saw the scene where those guys march into an office and tell them that the women need to be let go. Someone makes a comment like, "Do they really need the army for this?" to which someone says, "That's not the army. Well, it's a different kind of army." which suggests these nutbag cultists had easy access to automatic weapons in a society that values gun ownership so much.

"That's not the army" is an incredibly vague statement applied to one particular office in the continental United States. To enforce this "law" would require more manpower than the US military and police force combined. I've already debunked the likelyhood of a Gilead happening in real life in previous posts so I'm not repeating myself.

However I'm very open minded so please, anyone, explain to me how a Gilead could realistically come to power in the contemporary USA, how the government would successfully enact it, and how all the men would be convinced to go along with it. And if you're a man keep in mind this would have to be a plan you yourself and all your male friends and relatives would go along with. I can not wait to read these scenarios.

@cswood said:

@movie_nazi said: That's funny, I was thinking quite the opposite. I am on the third episode and I just saw the scene where those guys march into an office and tell them that the women need to be let go. Someone makes a comment like, "Do they really need the army for this?" to which someone says, "That's not the army. Well, it's a different kind of army." which suggests these nutbag cultists had easy access to automatic weapons in a society that values gun ownership so much.

"That's not the army" is an incredibly vague statement applied to one particular office in the continental United States. To enforce this "law" would require more manpower than the US military and police force combined. I've already debunked the likelyhood of a Gilead happening in real life in previous posts so I'm not repeating myself.

However I'm very open minded so please, anyone, explain to me how a Gilead could realistically come to power in the contemporary USA, how the government would successfully enact it, and how all the men would be convinced to go along with it. And if you're a man keep in mind this would have to be a plan you yourself and all your male friends and relatives would go along with. I can not wait to read these scenarios.

I'm not really getting what you are getting at. I was commenting on how you thought this movie was a poster child for the NRA and I thought quite the opposite seeing that it wasn't actually government entities that was marching into the offices to enforce these crazy laws, yet. Not in that scene, anyways. They were obviously just a crazy cultist organization which is implied when the guards says to her, "Under his eye" and she was like. "WTF?" . It was kinda like that volunteer paramilitary organization that was patrolling the border trying to catch illegals crossing (IRL). They go around destroying water bottles left in the desert and god knows what they do when they find someone crossing illegally. My guess is they don't call the border patrol.

As far as what you say about this realistically happening in the US, not in today's circumstances it couldn't. That's because there is not enough people who would back this movement. But given particular circumstances and with enough people brainwashed, I think it could happen. How long it would be sustained is another matter altogether to which I would say not very long. Once people have tasted freedom they are not going to let it go so easily. There is shit like this, albeit not quite as extreme, in middle eastern countries today. I totally remember seeing pictures of people being hung by crane in Iran for some silly Quran violation. Might have been homosexuality like in the show. Can't quite remember.

@movie_nazi said:

I'm not really getting what you are getting at. I was commenting on how you thought this movie was a poster child for the NRA and I thought quite the opposite seeing that it wasn't actually government entities that was marching into the offices to enforce these crazy laws, yet. Not in that scene, anyways. They were obviously just a crazy cultist organization which is implied when the guards says to her, "Under his eye" and she was like. "WTF?" . It was kinda like that volunteer paramilitary organization that was patrolling the border trying to catch illegals crossing (IRL). They go around destroying water bottles left in the desert and god knows what they do when they find someone crossing illegally. My guess is they don't call the border patrol.

I still maintain that this show works as an NRA recruitment tool because if the rebelling populous is well armed this wouldn't happen. The continental US is too big to occupy with the current military and police force, armed citizens far outnumber them. The majority of citizens would have to go along with the Gilead government as well as the majority of the police and military whose wives, girlfriends, daughters, and sisters would be turned into rape slaves, which would either cause most men to go AWOL and fight against the government, and they'd need guns to do that.

@movie_nazi said:

As far as what you say about this realistically happening in the US, not in today's circumstances it couldn't. That's because there is not enough people who would back this movement. But given particular circumstances and with enough people brainwashed, I think it could happen. How long it would be sustained is another matter altogether to which I would say not very long. Once people have tasted freedom they are not going to let it go so easily. There is shit like this, albeit not quite as extreme, in middle eastern countries today. I totally remember seeing pictures of people being hung by crane in Iran for some silly Quran violation. Might have been homosexuality like in the show. Can't quite remember.

Well in other non US countries where the citizens aren't armed, sure I'd be much more willing to believe it, but in the US? No way. I'd sooner believe a zombie apocalypse would happen. Stripping women of their ability to work and their money would tank the economy. Women are half the work force and hold 70% of the debt that would go unpaid, killing many businesses and banks. Just think of how many women work in the healthcare field, removing them would result in so many undermanned hospitals and so many deaths. The US would collapse.

That's why I can only accept the premise of this show the same way I accept the premise of Superman, as a complete work of fiction that could never happen. Unless it turns out it was aliens, if aliens did it then I'd accept that.