honestly, they're set up to fail for reasons very similar to the Avengers were. it was basically a miracle that that came together so cleanly.

although Defenders are perhaps coming from a place that's a little more uniform in tone.

@BarkingBaphomet said:

honestly, they're set up to fail for reasons very similar to the Avengers were. it was basically a miracle that that came together so cleanly.

although Defenders are perhaps coming from a place that's a little more uniform in tone.

I always thought the opposite.

The early MCU films were made with very simple, bland styles so that those styles could fit together so cleanly in The Avengers. Doormat directors like Louis Leterrier and Jon Favreau were used so that few artistic liberties were taken. No Sam Raimis, Nolans or Ang Lees here.

With the netflix Marvel shows I do see a distinctive style in each. Luke Cage is Blaxploitation, Jessica Jones is Noir, Daredevil is Nolan-ish Batman Begins (whatever you would call that).

Although I guess you could say that both are uniform in tone in the sense that The Avengers are all light and cartoony and the Netflix shows are dark and gritty.

Both Daredevil seasons were heavily anticipated, and I don't recall people bashing those.

@Halberstram said:

Both Daredevil seasons were heavily anticipated, and I don't recall people bashing those.

It's all about timing. Daredevil was very fresh at the time season 1 came out. I'm saying it's backlash time at the mo. It just seems to be the way the public and the media works. And DD season 2 did get a tiny bit of bashing. You could see the tide starting to turn at about this point. Despite the fact that the quality of season 2 was almost exactly the same as season 1. You even had the greatest Punisher to ever hit the screen.

Much of the public and the media seem to be swayed by what's "cool" and what's "hip". And I strongly believe The Defenders will be the latest victim of this phenomena.

And, yeah, It could just be shit. But I will definitely be watching it with an open mind.

Oh Christ, Marvel fanboys have such low standards. You're starting to sound like the DC freaks now that Marvel's been phoning it in for a few years.

@ubuzen said:

Oh Christ, Marvel fanboys have such low standards. You're starting to sound like the DC freaks now that Marvel's been phoning it in for a few years.

Dude, that whole Marvel vs DC thing is so boooooring. I couldn't give a crap which is better. If I get a good film or tv show to enjoy, great. I don't care about the brand that made the damn thing. I'm a film fan and this is a film site. I care about which director or writers created the material far, far more.

So please, leave the tedious, petty Marvel vs DC bullshit at the door. It's just not interesting.

That's ... what I said--a fanboy is a fanboy, and you're being a fanboy. Marvel isn't being persecuted because of some sort of "backlash", it's because for a while there they were making mediocre entertainment, especially on the TV front.

@ubuzen said:

That's ... what I said--

No, it's not. Your turning it into the petty, irrelevant Marvel vs DC bullshit by saying things like this-

a fanboy is a fanboy, and you're being a fanboy.

I now quote myself from this very thread above-

@JustinJackFlash said:

The early MCU films were made with very simple, bland styles so that those styles could fit together so cleanly in The Avengers. Doormat directors like Louis Leterrier and Jon Favreau were used so that few artistic liberties were taken. No Sam Raimi's, Nolans or Ang Lees here.

Does that sound like something a Marvel fanboy would say? But of course, you already read that didn't you. You wouldn't actually skip all the comments in the thread before spazzing your head across the keyboard.

@ubuzen said:

Marvel isn't being persecuted because of some sort of "backlash", it's because for a while there they were making mediocre entertainment, especially on the TV front.

See this would be a more interesting thing to discuss. Why didn't you just say this in the first place and maybe we could have had a normal discussion like adults.

To clarify, the backlash I was talking about was the Marvel/Netflix shows. Not Marvel in general. Marvel could unleash farts for the rest of eternity and people would pay money to smell them.

Its quality is relevant. A thimble full of urine can ruin a whole bowl of soup. Iron Fist's presence will drag it all down. But I'm willing to give it a chance. I'm hoping for Hellcat's appearance (Patty) as she was an actual member of the Defenders.

I agree with some things in this thread:

Marvel has been sorta phoning it in lately. Even though I enjoyed Dr Strange and GotG 2, the bar feels lower.

The DC vs Marvel war is idiotic. Either can make a good movie. Often they don't.

Netflix has been on a slow but steady decline with their hero shows.

@Horus Mazinga said:

Its quality is relevant. A thimble full of urine can ruin a whole bowl of soup. Iron Fist's presence will drag it all down. But I'm willing to give it a chance.

I've been on the fence about the Netflix shows--I liked JJ and Luke Cage well enough, didn't really appreciate the other two--but if the pattern holds, The Defenders should be goodish. I'm assuming that, at the least, the guy who played Iron Fist will have had more than 15 minutes to prep for his fight scenes this time.

I agree [...] Marvel has been sorta phoning it in lately. Even though I enjoyed Dr Strange and GotG 2, the bar feels lower.

That's funny. I didn't like the original GOTG--it felt too derivative--but quite enjoyed the sequel, which tweaked the "Our heroes are pitted against each other!" formula that Marvel has for all of its ensemble movies enough that it didn't feel like another rehash of that plot. Dr Strange was just bad.

@Horus Mazinga said:

Its quality is relevant.

Oh, of course. But that's not really what I meant. What I meant by that was- if it has quality or not it's reception will be the same. If it genuinely sucks, and it may well do, it will deserve to be derided.

The DC vs Marvel war is idiotic. Either can make a good movie. Often they don't.

Completely agree. I know I'm in the minority but I think Batman vs Superman got more hate than it deserved. There was some bad stuff in there, but there was some good stuff too. It was a mixed bag rather than completely shite. Suicide Squad was just shite. And I will never, ever understand the appeal of the Thor films.

And I'm no expert on the subject, but don't Marvel and DC actually like each other? They do crossovers in their comics don't they? They need each other to survive.

Netflix has been on a slow but steady decline with their hero shows.

I do agree, but probably not in the way you mean it. They have declined, but only because Daredevil set the bar very high. It was like the Batman Begins of TV. In comparison the other shows suffer a lot. But we shouldn't be comparing Netflix/Marvel shows only to other Netfix/Marvel shows. We should be comparing them to all TV shows in general. In this comparison they are far more enjoyable and well made than unwatchable drivel like The 100 or The Vampire Diaries or even Marvel's own tacky, borefest Agents of Shield. No they are nowhere near as good as things like The Wire or Breaking Bad. But nobody ever claimed they were. They are somewhere in between.

Lets see Daredevil check Iron Fist check looks like this show has met my requirements I think I'm going to enjoy the Defenders.

The fans got their wish after Iron Fist. They were complaining the seasons are too long and convoluted so the defenders has been confirmed to be 8 episodes long. Watch the fans later complain that it will be too short and end on on a cliffhanger ending.

I was ok for 13 episodes for the Daredevil and Jessica Jones series but with Luke Cage and Iron Fist it did seem they were a few episodes too long. I have 2 episodes of Luke Cage left and still haven't bothered to watch them yet.

@nolesjs17 said:

I was ok for 13 episodes for the Daredevil and Jessica Jones series but with Luke Cage and Iron Fist it did seem they were a few episodes too long. I have 2 episodes of Luke Cage left and still haven't bothered to watch them yet.

Jessica Jones and (the first season of) Daredevil could both have been tighter; I think ten episodes for each would have been perfect. Luke Cage's story would have been great over eight episodes; if they'd dropped the stupid "final boss", and focused on the neighbourhood's interpersonal relationships and politics, it would have been masterful. The second season of Daredevil and Iron Fist weren't even worth making.

Eight episodes seems optimal. Mostly (excluding the last two, Daredevil 2 and Iron Fist; they got cocky and lazy) it's when Netflix lets their Marvel writers go on too long that they fuck it up.

Regarding the OP'S post.. "the FLAC Iron Fist got"... Are you saying people out there are hating on the mighty Iron Fist..?! That's absurdity! I was hooked from the start! In my opinion, best show in years! Also, if I read correctly, there was mention of Iron Fist season 2..?im not aware... There is season 2?