The only thing I can say is that it is not allowed in Germany to copy texts or images from other sites without a permission, even EPG providers have to buy a license to use overviews from official sites, so the overviews from ZDF Neo and serienjunkies.de should be deleted ,it's not allowed to use the texts from fernsehserien.de they do forbid this explicit in their impressum, I don't know how Netflix Germany*s rules are

As long as I understand, the show is produced by/for both networks, and they air all episodes at the same original time (I'm not sure about the hour, though). The website of the production company

I only deleted it because Orphan Black is a 100% Canadian series and we decided a while ago to stop adding the first US broadcaster.

BBC Worldwide acquired a 25 per cent minority stake in Temple Street. This deal gave Temple Street the first look option to produce BBC Worldwide products and licensed media in Canada while providing BBC Worldwide with a first look option for the international distribution of all Temple Street productions.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like the deal allow them to call dibs on series. Also, BBC Worldwide?

@Samara said:

The only thing I can say is that it is not allowed in Germany to copy texts or images from other sites without a permission, even EPG providers have to buy a license to use overviews from official sites, so the overviews from ZDF Neo and serienjunkies.de should be deleted ,it's not allowed to use the texts from fernsehserien.de they do forbid this explicit in their impressum, I don't know how Netflix Germany*s rules are

Thank you, Samara! So that means the best solution for TMDb would be to write own German texts for all the overviews (for this show, and even in general). I think I could do that for the show, but it will take some time ...

Thanks for your answer, Banana!

I only deleted it because Orphan Black is a 100% Canadian series and we decided a while ago to stop adding the first US broadcaster.

But doesn't "100% Canadian series" and the joint venture with BBC America according to the article contradict each other? I don't understand what "100%" is refering to - isn't that only a reference to the location/origin of the production? Also, does that even matter when the show is broadcasted at the same time on both networks - isn't it a rule for TMDb to contribute the first airing ever?

I'm not sure, but it sounds like the deal allow them to call dibs on series. Also, BBC Worldwide?

"BBC Worldwide" was the short version in my quote from Wikipedia; the original article says "BBC Worldwide America". I feel like I might not grasp the full understanding of this deal from this single article - I actually do think that they co-produce the show. But I have no idea how those deals work ...

Anyhow, this isn't really important to me - I was just wondering why you deleted it because it doesn't make any sense to me. If this is a decision that was made, so be it.

Yeah, it's really not as simple as black and white.

Also, does that even matter when the show is broadcasted at the same time on both networks - isn't it a rule for TMDb to contribute the first airing ever?

It kinda does. We would never add the Canadian broadcaster to an American series unless it was a true co-production.

I feel like I might not grasp the full understanding of this deal from this single article - I actually do think that they co-produce the show.

I quickly re-check the end credits of season 5:

• "Produced and developed in Association with Bell Media" (Canada, owns Space)
• Crew "For Temple Street"
• "Produced with the Participation of the ROGERS Cable Network fund" + "COGECO Program Devolpment Fund" (Canada x2)
• Bell Fund, The Canadian Film or Video Production Tax Credit, Ontario Film and Television Tax Credit (Canada x3)
• End logos: Bell Media original production, BBC America original production, Temple Street production

It bugs me that they call it a BBC America "original production", but they BBCA are not named as producers and their only link is (maybe) a small one though Temple Street.

re: bbc/space

I just fixed the URL too. (and yes, now it is the same as fr-CA, but there is no en-CA, and Space is an English-language broadcaster/website, thus has dibs on the URL too. We don't add american broadcast stuff to UK series either)

@banana_girl said:

Yeah, it's really not as simple as black and white.

Indeed!

It kinda does. We would never add the Canadian broadcaster to an American series unless it was a true co-production.

Not even - hypothetically! - if the Canadian broadcaster airs each episode a day earlier than the American one?!?

• End logos: Bell Media original production, BBC America original production, Temple Street production

It bugs me that they call it a BBC America "original production", but they BBCA are not named as producers and their only link is (maybe) a small one though Temple Street.

That small link via Temple Street is exactly my argument why I think it's a true co-production. When you watch season 5 of "Orphan Black" via Netflix (I think every episode airs in the UK a day later at the moment), there's also a start and end logo stating "A Netflix Original" (the start logo is even designed in the style of the show's opening sequence). That doesn't make any sense from a production point of view, but it makes sense because BBC Worldwide distributes/sales the show abroad, among other's to Netflix UK. However, no matter were you watch the show, it always says at the end "BBC America Original Production" (even if you watch on Space in Canada). For me, that's the indicator on screen that the show is in fact co-produced.

However, like I wrote in my earlier post, I don't have any clue how those deals have to be understand from a business point of view. I might be completely wrong about it.

Off Topic - and in comparison:

The other show I currently follow, Wynonna Earp, airs it's second season simultaneously on Syfy (US) and Space (Canada). If I remember correctly, all episodes of season 1 aired on Syfy 3 days earlier in the US than on the Canadian channel CHCH-DT. However, as long as I can say, you won't find any connection to Syfy in the credits of the show, and the production definitely happens in Canada. So, what's the correct entry for network here on TMDb? At the moment, it says "Syfy, Space, Netflix, CHCH-DT" (I have no idea why Netflix is mentioned here at all).

@alltimemarr said:

re: bbc/space

I just fixed the URL too.

Which is, unfortunately, a real disservice for TMDb users, because the website of BBC America is much more informative for any fan of the show. By far!

And another thing I want to add re: bbc/space: All 3 official social media links here on TMDb for the show (instagram, twitter, facebook) refer to BBC America as the network you can watch the show on. I don't think those exist for Space - another indicator why this is a true co-production.

Not even - hypothetically! - if the Canadian broadcaster airs each episode a day earlier than the American one?!?

It actually happens fairly often (maybe at least one US series per season?), but we always ignore the Canadian broadcast. I know it makes things more complicated but series do not always premiere on their original network.

I often use Degrassi: Next Class as an example. It's a Canadian series, broadcast on the Family Channel in Canada, ABC in Australia and Netflix pretty much everywhere else (they also call it an "original"). The first season premiered in Canada, the second season in Australia, the third on Netflix and the fourth in Canada (and Family channel released the episodes earlier on their app as a Canada Day gift).

no matter were you watch the show, it always says at the end "BBC America Original Production" (even if you watch on Space in Canada).

Yes, I checked the original credits (the Space ones). I guess I'm wondering whether they truly are producers or if it's a condition of their broadcasting deal à la Netflix. But in this case I wouldn't really mind re-adding BBC America.

So, what's the correct entry for network here on TMDb?

I always (try to) go with the main network, unless it's a co-production. But I don't watch Wynonna Earp.

edit:

All 3 official social media links here on TMDb for the show (instagram, twitter, facebook) refer to BBC America as the network you can watch the show on. I don't think those exist for Space - another indicator why this is a true co-production.

I don't know about that one. Many, many Canadian series do not have individual social media account. But as far as I remember, US networks sometimes create them when they pick up Canadian series.

@banana_girl said:

It actually happens fairly often (maybe at least one US series per season?), but we always ignore the Canadian broadcast. I know it makes things more complicates, but series do not always premiere on their original network.

And which air date do you choose in such cases for TMDb? The one from the Canadian broadcast or the one from the original network?

In general, regarding specifically (!) the network entry here on TMDb: Does that mean the first air date is irrelevant here and I have to search for the original network in any given case?

I often use Degrassi: Next Class as an example. It's a Canadian series, broadcast on the Family Channel in Canada, ABC in Australia and Netflix pretty much everywhere else (they also call it an "original"). The first season premiered in Canada, the second season in Australia, the third on Netflix and the fourth in Canada (and Family channel released the episodes earlier on their app as a Canada Day gift).

That sounds really complicated!

Yes, I checked the original credits (the Space ones). I guess I'm wondering whether they truly are producers or if it's a condition of their broadcasting deal à la Netflix. But in this case I wouldn't really mind re-adding BBC America.

The bold part in your quote is the detail I still can't grasp from your argument: Why does the original network have to be the main producer of the show, or from the same country like the main producer? Hypothetically, when an US network orders a tv series from a production company that's based in Germany, and this company produces the show solely in Germany, it's a 100% German production for and ordered by an original network in the US. "Orphan Black" is produced 100% in Canada by a production company that's mostly Canadian (they call themselves "global entertainment company", but that's PR talk), but the show is produced in partnership for and ordered by two original networks: Space and BBC America.

At least that's how I understand all articles about the show, even according to official statements. At the moment, when you google the search term "Orphan Black" partnership "BBC America" Space, you can find 2 official announcements for season 5 of the show among the very first results:

1. http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2016/06/bbc-americas-orphan-black-renewed-for-a-fifth-and-final-season -> BBC America statement
   
2. http://www.bellmedia.ca/pr/press/space-announces-fifth-and-final-season-of-ground-breaking-original-thriller-orphan-black/ -> BellMedia statement
   

They both mention the partnership, the second one even has the line

"Temple Street, a division of Boat Rocker Media, produces ORPHAN BLACK in partnership with Space and BBC America"

highlighted as the second lead in, and company/network executives, executive producers, and the show creators all thank the production company and both networks as partners for their support. Apparently, the re-organization of the production company happened last year ("Temple Street" is now one part of "Boat Rocker Studios", the creative branch/division of "Boat Rocker Media" - but it's practically the same), and in their news section on their website you can find 3 articles regarding "Orphan Black":

1. http://boatrocker.com/orphan-black-producers-see-bright-future-canadian-tv/
   
2. http://boatrocker.com/space-congratulates-orphan-black-star-tatiana-maslany-historic-emmy-award-win/
   
3. http://boatrocker.com/orphan-black-conspiracy-expands-digital-content-additional-licensing-partners/
   

All 3 articles mention the partnership, all 3 include BBC America as original network/co-producer/co-broadcaster. The first one is the most interesting, it was originally published in Toronto newspaper/website "The Globe and Mail" in October 2016 here:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/orphan-black-producers-see-bright-future-for-canadian-tv/article32296865/

It's interesting because it begins with the omisson of BBC America as co-partner done by the author of the article, Simon Houpt, ("the cult Space channel hit Orphan Black" / "a show made for a Canadian network"). However, further down the article, one of the show executive producers (and co-president of Boat Rocker Studios), Ivan Schneeberg, mentions the partnership with BBC America in 2 paragraphs and explains why they joined the show:

When they started out, Schneeberg says, “there wasn’t enough money in the [Canadian] system to make great shows. Now, we’re in an era where there’s way more buyers, and Canadian broadcasters are much more inclined to support higher budget shows, because it’s actually in their own interests.”

U.S. networks, as well, are open to partnerships like the one between Space and BBC America, which airs Orphan Black in the United States. And the so-called over-the-top streaming services (Netflix, CraveTV) “will buy from anybody, as long as the content’s good. They’re agnostic, in terms of the nationality of the producer, but very particular in terms of wanting the quality to be great. So, what we’ve realized in this era – this so-called Golden Age of TV – is, if you can make really great stuff, you will sell it. And you will make money off of it. So it’s become a creative meritocracy, more so than it’s ever been.”

In conclusion: All those articles say to me that the deletion of BBC America as one of the 2 original networks here on TMDb is wrong. Both networks should appear, in my opinion.

I don't know about that one. Many, many Canadian series do not have individual social media account. But as far as I remember, US networks sometimes create them when they pick up Canadian series.

Ah, okay, I didn't know that. Good to know!

Best wishes,

janar

"Love [...] is the most incredible gift to give and to receive as a human being." - Ellen Page

I still think first airing is most important (I don't think Travis really answered that question in another thread), as long as it is the original version (no dub). So for a series like degrassi: next class then we would get Family Channels, ABC Australia and Netflix as the networks.

Maybe release dates per network and country (optional, because netflix, just select multiple countries/worldwide/lotsofcountries or something) should be a thing hahaha.

If the network is dependant on the production countries... I don't know seems odd. To me it's just, the network is the one that first aired it in original form, and (probably) put the most money in it to get that privilege.

And which air date do you choose in such cases for TMDb? The one from the Canadian broadcast or the one from the original network?

Sorry, I didn't mean to mess with your head! Most series do premiere on their original network and you probably wouldn't know that a series like Chicago Med aired in Canada first unless a) you're Canadian or b) you watched it illegally. I really can't imagine adding the Canadian networks and air dates to popular US series. There would be an uproar.

As I said, I always (try to) use the original network's air dates when there is a main network. Some series are not attached to a specific network or country, but a lot of them are. The thing I didn't say is that I do feel protective toward Canadian series (and UK ones). I really hate how US networks sometimes claim them as their own (orginals, co-productions) when they just buy the US broadcasting rights.

So for a series like degrassi: next class then we would get Family Channels, ABC Australia and Netflix as the networks.

Yeah, that's where we differ. I only added the original network and used the Canadian TV air dates for all seasons. I seriously hope we will eventually have multiple TV air dates for different languages, countries and type of releases. It would work really well for series like DNC. (Any chance of that happening?)

Why does the original network have to be the main producer of the show, or from the same country like the main producer?

No, I agree they don't have to be from the same country at all. But Orphan Black has very strong ties to Space and Canada and it's kinda like "Does BBC America deserve to be a co-network?" (Probably, because of the end credits. It's not a random network like Netflix.) or "Is the US truly a co-producer?" (Maybe? Half of the internet is wrong, but which half? )

I did some thinking and researching:

• I can't confirm that BBC America is a co-producer. In all their press releases for Orphan Black, they write something like "produced by Temple Street in association with BBC AMERICA and Space." They never refer to themselves as co-producers like they do with their other co-productions e.g. Luther + Burton and Taylor.
• BBC Worldwide (UK) bought a 25% stake in Temple Street in 2008. I don't think we can add the UK as a producing country. Plus, it appear their deal put Temple in charge of the production and BBC in charge of the distribution of certain series. I think BBC Worldwide might have sold to Fairfax Financial in 2015.
• This is what I meant by 100% Canadian. The idea, the production, (most) of the staff and the cast, the companies, etc. are Canadian.
• I agree I wrongly removed BBC America. The series is clearly made "in association" with both networks, whatever that means. That much I can confirm with the press releases and the original credits. We'll have to tweak the guidelines a little bit.
• Origin Country: we need guidelines