I am kind of undecided too...I thought Spector got TOO violent and crazy to be believable. In the first season he was violent but in a "clean" way. Beating people to a bloody pulp just because he wanted to didn't fit the idea of him they presented, and not in a character arc way...

i loved season 3. damn, i loved the whole show. i think character development is on point regarding paul spector. his progressive fall into a spiral of violence, manipulation and despair is IMO very believable, given his personality traits. though i'm not sure his amnesia was indeed a trick. it doesn't really matter though, his violence break in the final episode fits in both scenarios, i guess: either way, it's an act (or multiple acts) of despair mostly triggered by the fact that stella mentioned his abusive childhood.

season 3 made me think how hard it would be for me to judge/convict someone who couldn't truly remember commiting a certain crime. just imagine how hard it would be to be confronted with a terrible crime and being told you commited it. imagine you couldn't even imagine why or how you would be capable of such acts. i'm talking about a situation similar to paul's, supposing he did indeed have amnesia (which i'm not saying is true).

add: the ending was really really sad, wasn't it?

thanks for your replies you all! it helps me to sort some of my many thoughts.

for me, the end was sad but mostly unsettling, i'd been waiting for him to snap, but when it happened i was still at the edge of my seat!

Paul's outburst of violence towards the end made sense to me too, he seemed like the proverbial cornered rat that opts to attack instead of running away. He'd tried to play 'nice', he knew he'd be convicted, he'd bottled up his aggression, had been forced to look back at his traumatic past and had to admit to himself that a WOMAN had outsmarted HIM .. he snapped.

i loved the show and season 3 as well! regarding the amnesia i figure it was a shtick, maybe not in the first few days but soon his gaze changed and towards the end, the way he said that the police had been clever to find something from before his 'amnesia started' and then later during the interrogation remembered everything accurately convinced me that he'd remembered everything he did all along.

season three really makes me question the idea of justice! had the police let him bleed to death at the end of season 2 so many lives could have been saved! i admire the way the show took the time to shed light on the havoc such a case brings to the communities, the family of the murderer and the ethical questions medical teams have to face.

atm i'm of the opinion that it would have been better for everyone included if they'd had let him die in the forest, that indeed the police is at fault for saving his life for the sole sake of "bringing him to justice", but it's a complicated subject. the show made a good decision of calling this approach into question, but not answering it.

i felt so bad for Paul's wife, and for the woman at the school who admitted how at loss she felt dealing with the kids, rumors, bullying etc because she hadn't been trained for that.

it was also interesting that the show gave background information of Paul's life. I really liked that they gave us some context to his behaviour and also showed that not everybody who's been abused ends up as a serial killer. so much food for thoughts.. i'm still busy digesting! it would have been interesting to learn more about his wife and how she perceived her relationship with him, it would have been interesting if she'd been given more of a voice. i would feel beyond devastated to realize that i started a family with a murderer and never suspected anything. ugh

I was so focused on season 3 I didn't really think about wether or not the police should have Paul died earlier on season 2. But that's a tough one. The police as well as the doctors have to defend life upon everything, right? But yes, many lives would have been saved. Though Sally and the kids would find out about Paul being a murderes and that guy Alvarez would probably stay in prison for the rest of his life for a crime he didn't commit.

@ana catarina fontes said:

I was so focused on season 3 I didn't really think about wether or not the police should have Paul died earlier on season 2. But that's a tough one. The police as well as the doctors have to defend life upon everything, right? But yes, many lives would have been saved. Though Sally and the kids would find out about Paul being a murderes and that guy Alvarez would probably stay in prison for the rest of his life for a crime he didn't commit.

while i watched season 3 i felt that the shows focus was asking these questions over and over again .. i think that's why they zoomed in to the hospital in such detail.. i remember several conversations between hospital stuff ..also with Paul dead there would have been a little room for doubt for the family to take refuge in, instead of being drawn into the whole torrid affair as it played out in s3.. am i making sense?

@WizardsMug said:

@ana catarina fontes said:

I was so focused on season 3 I didn't really think about wether or not the police should have Paul died earlier on season 2. But that's a tough one. The police as well as the doctors have to defend life upon everything, right? But yes, many lives would have been saved. Though Sally and the kids would find out about Paul being a murderes and that guy Alvarez would probably stay in prison for the rest of his life for a crime he didn't commit.

while i watched season 3 i felt that the shows focus was asking these questions over and over again .. i think that's why they zoomed in to the hospital in such detail.. i remember several conversations between hospital stuff ..also with Paul dead there would have been a little room for doubt for the family to take refuge in, instead of being drawn into the whole torrid affair as it played out in s3.. am i making sense?

meh. i don't think there would be much doubt even if he was dead, i mean, he did confess, and there was strong evidence against him. but sally ann probably wouldn't have been defendant (which i believe was a major throw down for her and a critical factor which led her to the suicide/infanticede attempt) .

speaking about the hospital (and even though i was strongly convinced that paul was indeed amnesiac), didn't it seem like nurse kiera was going to have a sad ending? she did fit in paul's profile..

@WizardsMug said:

thanks for your replies you all! it helps me to sort some of my many thoughts.

for me, the end was sad but mostly unsettling, i'd been waiting for him to snap, but when it happened i was still at the edge of my seat!

Paul's outburst of violence towards the end made sense to me too, he seemed like the proverbial cornered rat that opts to attack instead of running away. He'd tried to play 'nice', he knew he'd be convicted, he'd bottled up his aggression, had been forced to look back at his traumatic past and had to admit to himself that a WOMAN had outsmarted HIM .. he snapped.

i loved the show and season 3 as well! regarding the amnesia i figure it was a shtick, maybe not in the first few days but soon his gaze changed and towards the end, the way he said that the police had been clever to find something from before his 'amnesia started' and then later during the interrogation remembered everything accurately convinced me that he'd remembered everything he did all along.

season three really makes me question the idea of justice! had the police let him bleed to death at the end of season 2 so many lives could have been saved! i admire the way the show took the time to shed light on the havoc such a case brings to the communities, the family of the murderer and the ethical questions medical teams have to face.

atm i'm of the opinion that it would have been better for everyone included if they'd had let him die in the forest, that indeed the police is at fault for saving his life for the sole sake of "bringing him to justice", but it's a complicated subject. the show made a good decision of calling this approach into question, but not answering it.

i felt so bad for Paul's wife, and for the woman at the school who admitted how at loss she felt dealing with the kids, rumors, bullying etc because she hadn't been trained for that.

it was also interesting that the show gave background information of Paul's life. I really liked that they gave us some context to his behaviour and also showed that not everybody who's been abused ends up as a serial killer. so much food for thoughts.. i'm still busy digesting! it would have been interesting to learn more about his wife and how she perceived her relationship with him, it would have been interesting if she'd been given more of a voice. i would feel beyond devastated to realize that i started a family with a murderer and never suspected anything. ugh

I am watching this series again now. I don't recall all the events of season 3 right now so I can comment more fully once I watch it through again. But as to the question of whether it would have been better to let him die in the forest, I think it would not have been a bad thing if he died, but would be a bad thing if they let him die. The deaths Specter caused in season 3, e.g. the carnage he caused in the finale, killing that inmate, savagely beating that psych., should have been prevented. The bits I think are a bit ridiculous are when the police and hospital staff bend over backwards, and wear blinders, trying to be certain that nobody violates this violent, manipulative, unpredictable murdering criminal's rights. They act like they are afraid to restrain him or restrict his movements because it would be unkind to him. Then they are surprised when he, once again, manipulates them and kills again.
If they had not figured out by this time how dangerous Specter was, they really should find a different profession. None of the killings which occurred while Specter was in custody needed to happen. Security measures were just inadequate; the police seemed incompetent.

Someone mentioned they would have difficulty convicting someone for a crime they could not remember committing. But I don't see it that way. When Specter committed those crimes he knew what he was doing. He was angry at these women because they had better lives than he did. So he had an injury and temporary amnesia (ostensibly anyway). That doesn't change what he did. And given his history of manipulation I would have a hard time believing he really had amnesia. But it would not make a difference to me.

Also, it makes no difference to me that he was abused and had a terrible childhood. It is a tragedy when any kid has to live through what he and those other children went through in their childhoods. But Specter knew the difference between right and wrong, and he made conscious decisions to kidnap, murder, torture, etc. Most people who are abused the way he was in childhood don't do that. They suffer, and that is terrible, but they don't choose to take out their anger, suffering, pain, etc. on innocent people. Specter tried to infect the Benedetto girl with his angry sickness "why should they be happy?" He taught her to foster her feelings of loss, taught her to punish innocent people because of the unfairness of the world, taught her to take pleasure in the pain and suffering he inflicted on others. Specter made a conscious decision to become and amplify the evil done to him. And the fault for that is all on him. Most people deal with their pain in responsible ways, but they don't try to get even with the world for not being fair or kind to him. Specter decided to enjoy making other people suffer. He tried to justify his actions with some pseudo philosophical nonsense, but it just sounded lame and fake.

No, it's a shame his childhood sucked, but he deserved punishment for the crimes he made a conscious decision to commit.

@😻 said:

I am kind of undecided too...I thought Spector got TOO violent and crazy to be believable. In the first season he was violent but in a "clean" way. Beating people to a bloody pulp just because he wanted to didn't fit the idea of him they presented, and not in a character arc way...

I disagree. During his killings, Spector was calmly violent, though sadistic. But in those killings he was in complete control of the situation. They were well planned out so that he would be in control.

Spector's violence against Stella Gibson and against the psychiatrist were under other circumstances. Before he had attacked Stella she had revealed him for who he was, she revealed all the things he had worked so hard to conceal from everyone. Spector was not in control of the situation any longer, and was frustrated and visibly getting angry. Stella robbed him of the control he had over how he was perceived when she correctly described him, and when she refused to play along with his malingering.
That is why his violence against her was so different. He was not in control but furious with rage. So he lashed out. The psychiatrist told him if he were his patient he would try to get him to see things as they really are.

When it became clear that he would not get away with his malingering amnesia performance, when he realized he would be forced to own his crimes, he lashed out at those who were making him take responsibility for his destructive thoughts and actions. And then he took his own life rather than have to sit in a courtroom and have the world see him for all he was. [I think he killed that crazy kid who made the commotion because he didn't want him to interfere with his suicide, or possibly because the girl he had killed was only 12 years old. Spector did have a soft spot for children. ]

@WizardsMug said:

thanks for your replies you all! it helps me to sort some of my many thoughts.

for me, the end was sad but mostly unsettling, i'd been waiting for him to snap, but when it happened i was still at the edge of my seat!

Paul's outburst of violence towards the end made sense to me too, he seemed like the proverbial cornered rat that opts to attack instead of running away. He'd tried to play 'nice', he knew he'd be convicted, he'd bottled up his aggression, had been forced to look back at his traumatic past and had to admit to himself that a WOMAN had outsmarted HIM .. he snapped.

i loved the show and season 3 as well! regarding the amnesia i figure it was a shtick, maybe not in the first few days but soon his gaze changed and towards the end, the way he said that the police had been clever to find something from before his 'amnesia started' and then later during the interrogation remembered everything accurately convinced me that he'd remembered everything he did all along.

season three really makes me question the idea of justice! had the police let him bleed to death at the end of season 2 so many lives could have been saved! i admire the way the show took the time to shed light on the havoc such a case brings to the communities, the family of the murderer and the ethical questions medical teams have to face.

atm i'm of the opinion that it would have been better for everyone included if they'd had let him die in the forest, that indeed the police is at fault for saving his life for the sole sake of "bringing him to justice", but it's a complicated subject. the show made a good decision of calling this approach into question, but not answering it.

i felt so bad for Paul's wife, and for the woman at the school who admitted how at loss she felt dealing with the kids, rumors, bullying etc because she hadn't been trained for that.

it was also interesting that the show gave background information of Paul's life. I really liked that they gave us some context to his behaviour and also showed that not everybody who's been abused ends up as a serial killer. so much food for thoughts.. i'm still busy digesting! it would have been interesting to learn more about his wife and how she perceived her relationship with him, it would have been interesting if she'd been given more of a voice. i would feel beyond devastated to realize that i started a family with a murderer and never suspected anything. ugh

Good comments. Yes, Spector's wife was another victim, several times over. She should have been offered a deal, or at least have been shown compassion since they were certain she was guiltless concerning the murders. Obviously she was devastated to the point of wanting to kill herself and spare her children growing up as the kids of a serial killer. An awful decision, but she was temporarily insane I would argue. And she was driven to her desperate act in part because of the decision to prosecute her for involvement in a crime she knew nothing about. How awful indeed to realize that you're married to a monster, and you had no idea. It is hard to imagine the horror you would feel over that.

Another thing that struck me in season three was the absurd second guessing of the police work by political and other higher ups. When Spector was shot there was a review; Stella Gibson was called before a review board and questioned about everything she did that day. They were critical of her for opening the trunk of the car containing Rose Stagg for example, suggesting she was negligent for not checking to see whether it had been booby trapped first. They blamed her for Spector getting shot. How was she responsible for the actions of some low level detention officer who leaked the information about taking Spector out to those woods?

They second guessed her on everything and found fault at every turn. I almost think that had it rained that day, and Spector's hair gotten wet, they would have criticized her for not checking the weather report first and bringing along an umbrella.

This was not the first time she was absurdly criticized. In the first season Stella told a reporter she had no comment and asked him to leave her alone while she ate her meal at the hotel restaurant. The reporter would not leave, though Stella asked him to leave several times, and refused to comment several times. The next day the reporter inferred things from her silence and wrote an article. Stella's superior had to go before the board and defend her as she came under criticism for the article.

@write2topcat

So cool to read your thoughtful comments! it's been a year since i finished watching the fall, the the story really stayed with me and i'm always happy to read thoughtful shares!

They second guessed her on everything and found fault at every turn. I almost think that had it rained that day, and Spector's hair gotten wet, they would have criticized her for not checking the weather report first and bringing along an umbrella.

The double standards Stella Gibson had to face with inside the universe and out (message boards, reviews) irk(ed) me to no end. i don't understand why the behavior her character displayed is MORE than accepted (aside from your examples, her having casual sex comes to mind) from males but not females. Why women face so much more rejection in powerful positions than their male counterparts.

I agree with you regarding Spector's wife, it would have been so much better for her, if she'd been offered support, empathy, counseling ... innocent until proven guilty? I don't like the phrase "temporary insane" i do however agree. She snapped because she didn't have the help she needed to stay strong in such a trying situation.

Spector's violence against Stella Gibson and against the psychiatrist were under other circumstances. Before he had attacked Stella she had revealed him for who he was, she revealed all the things he had worked so hard to conceal from everyone. Spector was not in control of the situation any longer, and was frustrated and visibly getting angry. Stella robbed him of the control he had over how he was perceived when she correctly described him, and when she refused to play along with his malingering. That is why his violence against her was so different. He was not in control but furious with rage. So he lashed out. The psychiatrist told him if he were his patient he would try to get him to see things as they really are.

^this! He felt/was exposed, had no control and lashed out!

thanks for sharing! (have u watched Westworld?) i don't spend much time here -- it's much less convenient to use this site than IMBd used to be. But reading your comments reminded me why I used to love coming online to read and share insights and thoughts!

@WizardsMug said:

The double standards Stella Gibson had to face with inside the universe and out (message boards, reviews) irk(ed) me to no end. i don't understand why the behavior her character displayed is MORE than accepted (aside from your examples, her having casual sex comes to mind) from males but not females. Why women face so much more rejection in powerful positions than their male counterparts.

I think the show was written specifically to address those issues.

Thanks for your kind words. Yeah I used to love reading what others thought over on IMDB and hated it when they discontinued the boards there.

I have not seen Westworld. I will look for it.

When a serial killer story evokes such thoughtful commentary, that in itself is a victory. I think this series deserves top marks for giving us a realistic insight into the possible mind of a serial killer interacting with realistic adversaries in realistic situations. Spector and Gibson represent credible adversaries because it does take a certain insight into a warped mind to understands a warped mind.

Spector did not kill Gibson in the end even though, as shown, he very well could have. I think his amnesia could well have been genuine but her careful detective work proved to him that he was, indeed, a serial killer who would never change. Or his memory came back to him bit by bit. Spector ONLY killed a truly secreted murderer and himself, every other one of his victims survived. From season one he was shown as an intelligent person and I think he committed suicide to help Gibson out of the problem he posed. He recognized his illness recognized he really couldn't EVER be cured so death was his way out. Aside from his daughter I doubt he was capable of loving anyone else. I always doubted the " abused becomes abuser" theory before this movie, now I'm not so sure! This series makes it clear to me that early childhood influences play a BIG part in how humans Dee envelope as adults, why it's so hard for anyone to break certain patterns of behavior... E even when we realize how destructive they are.

I am also impressed at how carefully the series explores, explains the psychological make up of many of the other supporting characters! Olivia "Livy" the daughter; Sally the wife; Katie the admirer; the detective inspector; even the pretty hoodlums..

I will have to check to see if the poetry quoted in much of the movie is real. If not, I have to wonder about the minds of the writers!

Jamie Dorman would make an EXCELLENT James Bond btw after Daniel Craig!

I am a huge fan of British cop shows because they detail the careful painstaking work of policing and crime solving. There were times when I initially thought the pace was too slow or the detail was unnecessary. On reflection, I am glad the show gave us such a comprehensive view of the events; want condescending or simplistic; and didn't tie everything neatly up in a bow for its viewers.

Indeed, the quality of the commentary I read here alone is testament to the quality of the show. I just wish more of today's "drama" rose to this level of thoughtfulness and complexity!

"That's Disney.... This is the REAL world".

I think his amnesia could well have been genuine but her careful detective work proved to him that he was, indeed, a serial killer who would never change. Or his memory came back to him bit by bit.

That's possible. But I think it more likely we were witnessing the intellect of an incredibly smart and manipulative sociopath. He knew the clinical features of amnesia well enough to display them convincingly, and was smart enough to know the legal advantage this provided him, and also the advantages of being in a mental treatment ward as opposed to general population in a prison. This would also be congruent with his need to outsmart the authorities, to fool them, to prove that he was brighter than they are. By convincing them that he had amnesia to the events he could still evade capture, in a sense. He could display his charming, gentle nature, as he did with the nurse who came to like him. Sociopaths are very skilled at mimicking the behaviors of normal people, and Spector was better than most. He had the clinical training to understand those behaviors. Fooling everyone gave him several benefits, and perhaps chief among them was the sense that he was in control of how others perceived him.

I think that is why he exploded with rage once Gibson succeeded in exposing his charade.