I'm glad Red finally put his foot down with Glen, his 'tracker'. I really can't stand listening to that guy chattering on and telling Red "I'm just pulling your chain".

@RodimusConvoy said:

Finally...so wait this guy that's Red's best friend, the one who tracked down Katarina, is somehow Ilyad? Unless Raymond got a friend to take his old face so Ilyad wouldn't disappear...but then again this friend goes by another name anyway. WTF we're in post-jumped-shark territory anyway I'll just enjoy the ride.

Yeah I didn't get this plot development either. I was under the impression Red was Ilyad before becoming Red (and after the real Red was killed by Liz as a child) and that Katarina knew Red was Ilyad. So either I'm remembering everything completely wrong (which wouldn't be out of the question) or the writers have indeed thrown us for a loop by revealing Ilyad as still being around.

revengine, that is how I remember that episode. Now I am wondering if Katarina is mistaken about this guy being Ilyad. Whoever he is, he is a good friend of Red's. He isn't denying being Ilyad, but is he playing along so as not to reveal that Red is Ilyad? Or did the writers fool us about Ilyad having surgeries to become present day Red? If it is the second, i.e., if Katarina is really torturing the real Ilyad now, then I really want to hear how they are going to explain this.

They have been very good at giving us misdirection about past mysteries, such as whose bones were buried, and who Red really is. I used to think he might have been Katarina's brother, which would have explained some of the interactions with Dom, and his protective nature concerning Liz. Then they showed us Ilyad's close relationship with Katarina and implied he might have been in love with her. And that could have explained why he protected LIz. But if Red isn't Ilyad, and he isn't the real Red obviously, who is he and what explains his obsession with Liz?

Many questions

@write2topcat I've been having the same questions lately. It seemed to me that not only was Red formerly Ilyad and that Katarina knew this but that she and Ilyad plotted together for Ilyad to become Red to make their escaping (or at least hiding away from the KGB or whoever it is they were working for) easier. So, as far as I knew, Katarina knew Red was Ilyad because she helped Ilyad become Red. So, now I'm not even sure who Red is - apparently he's not the real Red and he's also not Ilyad because Katarina has kidnapped someone thinking he is Ilyad and it's not Red. But I have to mention did you notice the funny look Ilyad gave Liz when she came to see Red at his RV? Seems there is perhaps some kind of connection there.

@revengine said:

@write2topcat I've been having the same questions lately. It seemed to me that not only was Red formerly Ilyad and that Katarina knew this but that she and Ilyad plotted together for Ilyad to become Red to make their escaping (or at least hiding away from the KGB or whoever it is they were working for) easier. So, as far as I knew, Katarina knew Red was Ilyad because she helped Ilyad become Red. So, now I'm not even sure who Red is - apparently he's not the real Red and he's also not Ilyad because Katarina has kidnapped someone thinking he is Ilyad and it's not Red. But I have to mention did you notice the funny look Ilyad gave Liz when she came to see Red at his RV? Seems there is perhaps some kind of connection there.

Yes, in fact I recall that Liz had discovered that Katarina had helped Red get his surgeries, which changed her assessment of Red, or at least challenged her assumptions of him at that time. So if the guy Katarina kidnapped to torture is really Ilyad, then who the hell is our Red? If the writers can deliver an answer consistent with previous revelations then I will tip my hat to them. They can't tell us Red survived being shot, because DNA testing of the bones says he is long dead. Or was he able to access and alter the government's records of his DNA? That would be a trick, and one which wouldn't hold up if he has other living family members available to test, like LIz. The military didn't keep DNA records of soldiers back when Red was killed or went missing, but Cooper was able to access Red's DNA from the blood on a shirt Red was wearing when captured and tortured, that shirt which was for some reason kept in an archived file. But the DNA from that bloody shirt shows a parental relationship to Elizabeth. So that DNA record correlates with the bones and with Liz. I cannot see a way to say the DNA records were altered, i.e. a way for the writers to tell us the real Red could still be alive; not unless he is walking around without his bones.

Or, is the guy Katarina is holding not really Ilyad? If not, then why would he not say so? And if he isn't Ilyad, would Katarina not sense this since she knew him so well? One doesn't change so much from aging that a close friend can't recognize you, ordinarily anyway. So it doesn't seem credible to think he is not Ilyad, which leaves us with the 'Who is our Red?' question.

To my knowledge they have not collected a DNA sample from our Red, unless I am forgetting something. Wait, Liz did collect a sample in the first or second episode, but didn't test it for some conflicted reason. I don't recall ever hearing that they ever tested our Red. I wonder what, if anything, that might reveal.

Our Red must be some new character to the story, identity as yet unknown. But what does that do to the idea that Katarina helped Ilyad have multiple surgeries to look like the real Red and access those funds the Russians placed in that bank account to frame him?

The writers have put themselves into a real bind here. Either they have led us astray with some of the previous revelations, or they are going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to explain all of this.

@write2topcat The only thing I can come up with is Red really is Ilyad and Katarina knows this but what we the audience do not know is that as well as helping the real Ilyad become Red, Katarina and Ilyad (aka Red) also helped someone else become a fake Ilyad - someone who both Katarina and Red are close with and who could help Katarina deal with Red (TBH I'm not even sure what Katarina is trying to accomplish) - and that's who Katarina has kidnapped. Who this fake Ilyad really is is beyond me and I could be way off base with this but as of right now it's the only thing that makes sense to me. Unless I've totally missed or forgot some detail it seems fairly obvious the writers have held back some part of the story. But I have to admit, the idea of there being two fake characters would be pretty dumb so I hope that's not what's going on.

Or, what if there is a second person named Ilyad? Someone who has as yet not been revealed to us, also named Ilyad, who was also close to Katarina. Ilyad is not an uncommon name. But wait, they said he had the same last name too, didn't they? So there would have to be a second person with the same name, also close to Katarina, also a KGB agent. That is a real stretch. Maybe his parents had identical twins, and named them both Ilyad. Like that show where the guy says "that's my brother Darryl, and that's my other brother Darryl". And they were both close to Katarina, and they both were in the KGB. LOL

No, let me try this again. There is a second person named Ilyad who is ex KGB. Katarina only thinks he is the real Ilyad, and he doesn't want to give away the fact that he is not him. The writers have not told us about him yet, but he was a friend of the Ilyad we already know about, the one who became Red. Would that work?

There is no explanation I can imagine or have read about which really seems congruent with what we have been led to believe thus far and seems credible. Maybe they will be able to surprise us but it does seem like they have written themselves into a logical box they can't get out of.

Second response:

Your idea may not be so far off. Perhaps Katarina and Red wanted to create a fake Ilyad so the KGB would not put together that Ilyad became a fake Red, should they ever hear a rumor that the real Red was dead. And some third player, who was also close to them, agreed to act as the fake Ilyad, on paper. And our Red, who had the resources, helped him stay hidden and free also. In this scenario, the third person, the fake Ilyad, would need to be someone the KGB would not miss. So maybe he was not an agent.

They wouldn't want the KGB to notice that Ilyad was missing shortly after Reddington went AWOL and that the money went missing not long afterward. That would have them suspecting Ilyad perhaps. So they may have wanted to create a fake Ilyad and have the KGB think the real Ilyad was either captured, or had defected, or something. The idea being that he didn't simply disappear, there would be some story created for what happened to Ilyad so the KBG wouldn't wonder if he had killed Red and faked being him in order to get the money.

What Katarina is trying to do: She seems a bit out of control and irrational. There was something done by Dom and others to put the KGB on Katarina's trail, at some point, I think. And this was apparently done "to protect Elizabeth", which is sufficient reason to do almost anything in this story. They thought that Katarina was doing something which endangered the plan to protect LIzzie. Now Katarina is furious at those responsible for enacting this plan to sacrifice her and is out to have these people either stop the plan to sacrifice her, or just take revenge on them. That is the gist of her beef with Red, Dom, and Ilyad, as far as I was able to understand it.

off the subject: There is a weak part to the story, it seems to me. Once the real Red was killed, it took some time, several operations were done, before Ilyad could fake being Red and go after the money. During this time, do I have this right? wasn't the real Reddington already being considered a traitor? And if so, the KGB would have known this. What was the point of leaving all that money in that account then? I suppose this can be explained, but if I were the KGB I would think that money had already served its purpose and I would want to use it for something else. That is what seems weak. But I guess this could be explained easily enough. Maybe they thought it had to stay there longer because the Americans had not discovered that account yet, and it was an important part in discrediting Red. The Soviets would still like to get their hands on Red, even though he was blown and could not be turned at that point. ....Or maybe I have it wrong. Maybe Red was only thought to be missing for a while. Maybe Kat and Ilyad waited til they could get the money before leaking the blackmail file on Red to make him seem like a traitor who was in the wind, living the criminal life. I'm not sure the exact chronology on this was laid out, I'm talking about how long after Red was killed before the US began to consider him a traitor. ...This is not a major weak point. But when I read about the small amounts of money the Soviets used to turn Americans into assets, it just seems like they tied up a whole lot of money in that account for quite a while.

@write2topcat said:

I'm glad Red finally put his foot down with Glen, his 'tracker'. I really can't stand listening to that guy chattering on and telling Red "I'm just pulling your chain".

And then Red came back and apologized, rendering the whole thing moot. Maybe Red's outburst was borne out of frustration for his friend, but it was still long overdue. When you're doing business and under a time crunch you don't always have time for bs, or as red put it "relentless nonsense and insipid banter".

Is it possible this isn't really Katarina? This all feels like a game of musical chairs, only replace "chairs" with "faces".

*Ilya became Red. But he got another character to get a facelift to take his old face. Even though he would take an alias (or his actual name?), Fake Ilya would basically double as a decoy if anyone ever came looking for Ilya. Which...apparently happened.

*At some point Katarina was killed, and someone got a facelift to look like her. From the way she was talking to Ilya, I'm guessing whoever she was originally was someone who cared deeply for the real Ilya. She thinks he's the real deal, cause only the real Katarina knew Ilya got a facelift to look like and become Raymond. Ilya, well Fake Ilya, might suspect now that this isn't really Katarina, but if he had an inkling of this beforehand I doubt he would have helped Raymond find her.

I guess we'll see. Not sure what's going on or what theory works or doesn't or anything anymore. lol

Holy crap Rodimus, that made me feel dizzy. lol

I am really curious how they plan to explain all of this. I give them points for creativity, but they have a tough job ahead of them to make this make sense this time.

Katarina is a fake as well. Interesting. It's possible, but I don't think it makes things any clearer. And about the money and the KGB; I was under the impression that the money was something Ilyad (aka Red) and Katarina did in secret, that they hid it away without the KGB knowing as an emergency fund.

@revengine said:

Katarina is a fake as well. Interesting. It's possible, but I don't think it makes things any clearer. And about the money and the KGB; I was under the impression that the money was something Ilyad (aka Red) and Katarina did in secret, that they hid it away without the KGB knowing as an emergency fund.

They may have done something like that, and perhaps that was mentioned in the show and I missed it. But the bulk of the money was (I think they said it was $30 million back then) put in a foreign bank which is known for doing business with shady people, under the name of Raymond Reddington. This was part of the plan to blackmail Red, something they had not gotten as far as doing before he died. They thought they could present him with all these things they had done to set him up to look like a traitor. The idea was that he would see that he had been compromised and would be imprisoned or worse if they revealed all this damning stuff to the US Navy and would agree to give them information in order to save his skin.

But then Masha shot her father and Red was dead. They hid this fact from everyone and made it appear that he had gone on the run. , Katarina and Ilyad came up with the plan to use plastic surgery to turn Ilyad into Reddington so he could go to that bank and get the money. They needed it to remain free and hidden. "Red" then began his criminal career to build that small 30 million nest egg into some real money. lol

@write2topcat The latest episode confirms what you said about the money; that its purpose was to frame Red. TBH I'm still not 100% on what's going on. It seems the Ilyad who Katarina has captured is the real Ilyad so that just leaves the real identity of Red. If the real Raymond Reddington was shot and killed by Liz as a child, then the true identity of Red is an unknown. Unless he's the person Ilyad and Katarina were saying is pursuing her (can't recall the name right now).

@revengine said:

@write2topcat The latest episode confirms what you said about the money; that its purpose was to frame Red. TBH I'm still not 100% on what's going on. It seems the Ilyad who Katarina has captured is the real Ilyad so that just leaves the real identity of Red. If the real Raymond Reddington was shot and killed by Liz as a child, then the true identity of Red is an unknown. Unless he's the person Ilyad and Katarina were saying is pursuing her (can't recall the name right now).

Yeah, I am guessing our Red is someone who has as yet not been revealed to us. This makes that episode which indicated Ilyad had the surgeries to become Red a real mystery. Now I am back to wondering if our Red might be Dom's son again. But there is nothing nearly concrete to suggest that. So we are left wondering and waiting still to find out the answer.