Discuss Star Trek: Voyager

OK I just binge watched the whole series and the last episode (Endgame) killed me.

I'm sorry but Chakotay and 7-of-9? That makes no sense.

Chakotay and Janeway spend 6 and a half years together, having dinner having breakfast being Mom and Dad to the crew. I truly imagined a scene on Earth where they say "Well, we're no longer Captain and First Officer" and fall into each other.

But no. Instead we have a pic-nic.

On the other hand 7-of-9. The Doctor has professed his love at least once in public. Harry Kim has had some romantic interests. Hell! Even Tuvok had a certain logical affinity to her. All of these are thrown out the door.

As an aside I thought a hook-up with Data would have been excellent. Those wiley nana-probes.

I just picture a bunch of writers with no interest the show just saying "yeah, that'll do it let's have lunch."

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Usually relationships form between 2 people who are more UNALIKE than ALIKE. If someone is SHY, for example, they might be attracted to someone who is more friendly and OUTGOING. And in time they may also ABSORB or ASSIMILATE some of those kind of personality traits from the other person who is their opposite.

And we also know how SOCIALLY AWKWARD 7 was at first, and we also saw how good Chakotay was when it came to dealing with other cultures and peoples that they encountered.

So for that reason it does MAKE SENSE that these 2 would be attacted to one another.

In the ONE SMALL STEP episode 7 also learns from Chacotay what it's like to ADMIRE someone for their accomplishment (which she also wasn't interested in at first). But through Chacotay she realizes the reasons why he admires the other astronaut, and she also tells the corpse who won the World Series at the funeral they hold for him (which let's us know she also respects the astronaut by the end of the episode).

Then in NATURAL LAW the 2 of them were also trapped in time in a place where they learn about a primitive culture called the VENTU, and a young girl also gives 7 a blanket to remember her by at the end of that episode.

So once again she's learning from Chacotay how to appreciate special moments in history and why other more primitive cultures have value which also brings the 2 of them closer together as they share such experiences.

And she also knew that Chacotay's interest in her wasn't based upon the way that she looked physically (which was mostly what motivates KIM's interest in her).

And in HUMAN ERROR we also saw 7 having fantasies about Chacotay that she puts to the test by simulating DATES she has with him in the HOLODECK.

The One Small Step eppy may also have enabled her to think about her parents differently than she did at first. Because when she sees how much Chaotay and the others admired the other astronaut who died, she may also have seen her parents as being the same kind of brave explorers and as not the kind of fools that she previously assumed them to be.

So the SEEDS of a budding relationship between the 2 of them have definitely also been PLANTED ahead of time before we get to the END GAME episode.

@Invidia said:

Usually relationships form between 2 people who are more UNALIKE than ALIKE. If someone is SHY, for example, they might be attracted to someone who is more friendly and OUTGOING. And in time they may also ABSORB or ASSIMILATE some of those kind of personality traits from the other person who is their opposite.

And we also know how SOCIALLY AWKWARD 7 was at first, and we also saw how good Chakotay was when it came to dealing with other cultures and peoples that they encountered.

So for that reason it does MAKE SENSE that these 2 would be attacted to one another.

In the ONE SMALL STEP episode 7 also learns from Chacotay what it's like to ADMIRE someone for their accomplishment (which she also wasn't interested in at first). But through Chacotay she realizes the reasons why he admires the other astronaut, and she also tells the corpse who won the World Series at the funeral they hold for him (which let's us know she also respects the astronaut by the end of the episode).

Then in NATURAL LAW the 2 of them were also trapped in time in a place where they learn about a primitive culture called the VENTU, and a young girl also gives 7 a blanket to remember her by at the end of that episode.

So once again she's learning from Chacotay how to appreciate special moments in history and why other more primitive cultures have value which also brings the 2 of them closer together as they share such experiences.

And she also knew that Chacotay's interest in her wasn't based upon the way that she looked physically (which was mostly what motivates KIM's interest in her).

And in HUMAN ERROR we also saw 7 having fantasies about Chacotay that she puts to the test by simulating DATES she has with him in the HOLODECK.

The One Small Step eppy may also have enabled her to think about her parents differently than she did at first. Because when she sees how much Chaotay and the others admired the other astronaut who died, she may also have seen her parents as being the same kind of brave explorers and as not the kind of fools that she previously assumed them to be.

So the SEEDS of a budding relationship between the 2 of them have definitely also been PLANTED ahead of time before we get to the END GAME episode.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. In my experience and those of people I know, opposites DO NOT attract. Sure it might be fun for a weekend but anything longer ended up in a disaster.

Besides I don't think of Chakotay and Seven as opposites. In every episode that I saw, including the ones you mention they had a professional working relationship. There was no build up of a relation ship that I saw. I've talked to people about fantasy romances. They all agreed that you should never fantasize about people in your real circle.

Then there is this: https://youtu.be/s73YJkOGLdA

As she says: it would have been one thing if it was slowly developed, but it wasn't.

It's perfectly fine to DISAGREE and see the situation from another different perspective.

The info you've been given was based upon a COURSE called the PSYCHOLOGY of GENDER where the PROFESSOR said this to the class:

SOME CLASS LECTURE NOTES on THE PSYCHOLOGY of GENDER

EVERYBODY has BOTH a MASCULINE & a FEMININE SIDE to their personality.

In a course called THE PSYCHOLOGY OF GENDER, the professor explains how falling in love is nothing more than one person being attracted to the more developed and dominant Masculine or Feminine traits of another person that they are lacking in themselves.

In the so called traditional marriage, for example, a female with feminine traits often marries a male with more masculine traits (although a male with feminine traits may also chose a wife who has developed more of her masculine personality traits as well).

In the course of time, a wife will then tend to take on her husbands masculine personality traits, and he may likewise develop some of her feminine personality traits.

(One can also observe this process at work in the movie GREASE where Olivia Newton John becomes a more Masculine Huntress type of female at the end -- when she's wearing black leather pants trying to please John -- whereas John Travolta trades in his leather jacket for the letter sweater -- becoming a softer jock type to try to please Olivia).

But a problem that frequently developes in our society is one where the female eventually takes on her husbands more masculine personality traits, yet her husband fails to develope the more feminine side of his personality.

And in such a case, divorce is often the result, due to the way the wife is no longer interested in playing the sweet nurturing mother type of role to her husband any more.

And after the divorce, the husband tends to marry another wife, (usually a younger woman), usually another one who still hasn't yet developed her masculine side, again someone who is willing to mother him and nurture him.

And if the husband still fails to develop the feminine side of his personality in a relationship with his 2nd wife (who also developes her masculine side), the result may be still another divorce for the same reason again.

In other words, the main purpose and goal of a relationship is for the female to become more masculine and for the male to become more feminine, or vice versa, until they have a BALANCE of both traits. Only in this way can we become a more balanced individual, or a WHOLE person, who doesnt have an OVERABUNDANCE of either the Masculine or the Feminine sides of our natures.

The professor who taught the Gender class also describes our current society and culture as a very UNBALANCED one. He says we are way too Masculine and this imbalance causes us much grief and suffering.


So that's why SEVEN would be attracted to someone who is more OUTGOING than she was, because she could ASSIMILATE or ABSORB the personality traits he has that she lacks with her being and feeling so SHY around others.

But you're right about how ABRUPT the relationship between them seemed in comparison to the other BUILD UP that we got between PARIS and B'ELANNA.

Is it possible they had planned to have it happen that way but then the show was CANCELLED before the writers had a chance to portray it that way???

Whatever the case may be, according to the GENDER LECTURE we're attracted to OPPOSITE types, but that also doesn't mean we have NOTHING in common.

We can still have the SAME INTERESTS in something, it just indicates that we tend to be attracted to others who have developed different personality traits that we haven't yet developed yet ourselves.

Thus the reason why SHY SEVEN would be interested in the MUCH MORE OUTGOING and NOT SHY Chacotay.

@Invidia said:

It's perfectly fine to DISAGREE and see the situation from another different perspective.

The info you've been given was based upon a COURSE called the PSYCHOLOGY of GENDER where the PROFESSOR said this to the class:

SOME CLASS LECTURE NOTES on THE PSYCHOLOGY of GENDER

EVERYBODY has BOTH a MASCULINE & a FEMININE SIDE to their personality.

In a course called THE PSYCHOLOGY OF GENDER, the professor explains how falling in love is nothing more than one person being attracted to the more developed and dominant Masculine or Feminine traits of another person that they are lacking in themselves.

In the so called traditional marriage, for example, a female with feminine traits often marries a male with more masculine traits (although a male with feminine traits may also chose a wife who has developed more of her masculine personality traits as well).

In the course of time, a wife will then tend to take on her husbands masculine personality traits, and he may likewise develop some of her feminine personality traits.

(One can also observe this process at work in the movie GREASE where Olivia Newton John becomes a more Masculine Huntress type of female at the end -- when she's wearing black leather pants trying to please John -- whereas John Travolta trades in his leather jacket for the letter sweater -- becoming a softer jock type to try to please Olivia).

But a problem that frequently developes in our society is one where the female eventually takes on her husbands more masculine personality traits, yet her husband fails to develope the more feminine side of his personality.

And in such a case, divorce is often the result, due to the way the wife is no longer interested in playing the sweet nurturing mother type of role to her husband any more.

And after the divorce, the husband tends to marry another wife, (usually a younger woman), usually another one who still hasn't yet developed her masculine side, again someone who is willing to mother him and nurture him.

And if the husband still fails to develop the feminine side of his personality in a relationship with his 2nd wife (who also developes her masculine side), the result may be still another divorce for the same reason again.

In other words, the main purpose and goal of a relationship is for the female to become more masculine and for the male to become more feminine, or vice versa, until they have a BALANCE of both traits. Only in this way can we become a more balanced individual, or a WHOLE person, who doesnt have an OVERABUNDANCE of either the Masculine or the Feminine sides of our natures.

The professor who taught the Gender class also describes our current society and culture as a very UNBALANCED one. He says we are way too Masculine and this imbalance causes us much grief and suffering.


So that's why SEVEN would be attracted to someone who is more OUTGOING than she was, because she could ASSIMILATE or ABSORB the personality traits he has that she lacks with her being and feeling so SHY around others.

But you're right about how ABRUPT the relationship between them seemed in comparison to the other BUILD UP that we got between PARIS and B'ELANNA.

Is it possible they had planned to have it happen that way but then the show was CANCELLED before the writers had a chance to portray it that way???

Whatever the case may be, according to the GENDER LECTURE we're attracted to OPPOSITE types, but that also doesn't mean we have NOTHING in common.

We can still have the SAME INTERESTS in something, it just indicates that we tend to be attracted to others who have developed different personality traits that we haven't yet developed yet ourselves.

Thus the reason why SHY SEVEN would be interested in the MUCH MORE OUTGOING and NOT SHY Chacotay.

Wow. You've obviously given this a lot more thought than I have. The "opposites" I was thinking of were more along the line of: pirogis or lasagna for supper.

But lecture aside, I have never seen Seven as a shy person. She knew her own beliefs and was willing to stand up for them. One of the problems was that Seven and Chakotay were never shown to have shared interests.

Which takes me back to sloppy writing. If they (the writers) would have started a romance earlier I might have believed it. I think we're in agreement on that.

Wow. You've obviously given this a lot more thought than I have. The "opposites" I was thinking of were more along the line of: pirogis or lasagna for supper.


Without having seen the GENDER COURSE on TV one's thoughts would probably be the same as yours.

But what the professor said just made too much sense to not take it into consideration.

And what he said definitely also explains the reason why one finds so many OLDER MEN (like the current POTUS) who keep getting DIVORCED ... and then marry YOUNGER WOMEN who are still willing to play the MOTHER ROLE with them ... due to the way younger wives are also more likely not to have developed their MASCULINE personality traits yet ... whereas the OLDER WOMEN would get tired of playing the MOMMY ROLE to a HUBBY (especially after she's also had other children she needs to MOTHER).


But lecture aside, I have never seen Seven as a shy person. She knew her own beliefs and was willing to stand up for them. One of the problems was that Seven and Chakotay were never shown to have shared interests. Which takes me back to sloppy writing. If they (the writers) would have started a romance earlier I might have believed it. I think we're in agreement on that.


Remember how the DOC tires to give SEVEN lessons in how to be more social? Since she'd been assimilated as a child she had a lack of SOCIAL INTERACTION SKILLS (which also became apparent when she orders KIM to take off his clothes so they could have sex which also scared him away).

Then one day the little girl named NAOMI WILDMAN wants to have lunch with SEVEN, and Seven freaks out because she isn't comfortable being around other people.

So perhaps "SHY" is also the wrong word to use, because you're right, she certainly was ASSERTIVE enough (as demonstrated by her encounter with KIM).

But she also lacked confidence in her ability to interact properly with other people because of her lack of experience in how to do it (due to her having been kidnapped by the BORG as a child).

And since the writers did such a good job with the romantic relationship between PARIS and B'Elanna, that's also why one suspects something else went wrong, and maybe they assumed they still had plenty of time left to develop a relationship between Seven and Chacotay, only to discover that the show was ending, which also didn't leave them enough time to do it in the way that they'd originally planned???

So with the show ending, maybe they also had no other option left but to RUSH things the way they did???

And yes we agree about how it wasn't very plausible to find out about how they were a COUPLE in the last episode called ENDGAME.

We agree that the relationship between Chakotay and Seven was last minute and forced but you're forgetting Seven and the Doctor:

https://youtu.be/uv0sXurldwY

and also Chakotay and the Captain:

https://youtu.be/KSoqs7GYlss

There was a lot of wasted potential there.

Yes Chacotay had a thing for JANEWAY just like the DOC had a thing for SEVEN ...

but in both cases the FEMALES they desired didn't feel the SAME WAY about them as they did.

They were EXTREMELY FOND of Chacotay and the DOC and appreciated them, but ROMANCE was also something that JANEWAY explained she wasn't able to engage in due to her having the JOB as CAPTAIN of the ship.

She didn't explain this, but imagine what kind of a situation could arise if she did have a MALE friend. The others would resent him and call him TEACHER'S PET, etc. which could lead to all kinds of problems for both her and whoever she was romantically involved with at the time.

As for SEVEN, the problem with her is she's basically still EMOTIONALLY a CHILD due to her capture by the BORG at age 6.

That's also the reason why she RELATES so well to NAOMI WILDMAN and tolerates her better than she does others her own age.

And the DOC is also basically still a CHILD as well in certain respects due to his learning how to be a BETTER HUMAN (just like SEVEN is also learning how to be a better human).

And when she tells him he's her MENTOR, that also indicates the way she feels about him, and that she doesn't see him ROMANTICALLY or in the same way as he sees her.

Because a MENTOR is a TEACHER, and it's also not a good idea to be romantically involved with one's INSTRUCTOR (for the same reason as it isn't a good idea for JANEWAY to have a LOVE INTEREST on her ship).

Because people who instruct other people are also in a position to take advantage of that role and the kind of POWER that they have over others who are learning lessons from them.

And that's also the reason why we have LAWS against teachers having affairs with their students who can also be taken advantage of by them.

NOTE the way SEVEN also tells the DOC how he screwed up the 3RD VERSE of the song.

The reason why he does so is because he realized the kind of ROMANTIC feelings he has for her, but SEVEN remains completely CLUELESS as to the reason why he messed up, because she doesn't RECOGNIZE the way he feels (because she also doesn't have the same kind of feelings for him that he has for her).

To her he's her TEACHER. Someone who instructs her in the ART of ROMANCE, and teacher's her how to dance, but he still isn't the OBJECT of her LOVE INTEREST or the reason why she's learning better SOCIAL SKILLS from him (which also becomes apparent later on when we discover how she's been creating and having HOLODECK DATES with a HOLOGRAPHIC version of CHACOTAY).

So yes they do SING EXTREMELY well together, but it's also a mistake to think the feelings that the DOC forms for SEVEN are reciprocated by her.

Because in each scene she also remains just as CLUELESS as JANEWAY does about the way CHACOTAY feels about her until the final scene where he tells her the story about the WARRIOR.

And then she HOLDS his HAND, but she still doesn't KISS him or do anything else to encourage him to think she thinks it's ok for them to be ROMANTICALLY involved.

And even IF she did have sex with him or begin a ROMANITC relationship with him while stranded on the PLANET where they may have been forced to remain for the rest of their lives, as soon as she returns back to her JOB of being CAPTAIN of the SHIP again, NOTE the way NONE of that matters or seems to have happened.

Because as PROFESSIONALS and OFFICERS they both also realize the reasons why they can't be involved with one another which could cause all kinds of problems for them ON the JOB.

Look at the way B'Elanna and PARIS also had to SNEEK around when they first got involved and what kinds of RUMORS were floating around at that time.

People notice things like that, you can't HIDE it for very long.

And it's also HIGHLY UNLIKELY that SEVEN would see having a relationship with the DOC as a LOGICAL thing to do (due to her BORG MENTALITY which is also a bit like the VULCAN point of view where if something isn't LOGICAL then it's not worth pursuing).

In other words, EMOTIONS are also NOT something that the BORG took into consideration (which is also the reason why we keep hearing SEVEN saying IT'S NOT RELEVANT so often).

So to her it would also be IRRELEVANT to consider being ROMANTICALLY involved with a HOLOGRAPHIC being, which is also AMUSING when she ends up having a ROMATIC RELATIONSHIP with a HOLOGRAPHIC CHACOTAY.

:wink:

@Invidia said:

Yes Chacotay had a thing for JANEWAY just like the DOC had a thing for SEVEN ...

but in both cases the FEMALES they desired didn't feel the SAME WAY about them as they did.

They were EXTREMELY FOND of Chacotay and the DOC and appreciated them, but ROMANCE was also something that JANEWAY explained she wasn't able to engage in due to her having the JOB as CAPTAIN of the ship.

She didn't explain this, but imagine what kind of a situation could arise if she did have a MALE friend. The others would resent him and call him TEACHER'S PET, etc. which could lead to all kinds of problems for both her and whoever she was romantically involved with at the time.

This is why I expressed disappointment that as soon as Janeway and Chakoty were no longer Captain and First Officer they didn't have a massive romantic kiss.

As for SEVEN, the problem with her is she's basically still EMOTIONALLY a CHILD due to her capture by the BORG at age 6.

That's also the reason why she RELATES so well to NAOMI WILDMAN and tolerates her better than she does others her own age.

And the DOC is also basically still a CHILD as well in certain respects due to his learning how to be a BETTER HUMAN (just like SEVEN is also learning how to be a better human).

That sounds like a pretty romantic situation to me, two adult-children learning about social interactions together.

And when she tells him he's her MENTOR, that also indicates the way she feels about him, and that she doesn't see him ROMANTICALLY or in the same way as he sees her.

Because a MENTOR is a TEACHER, and it's also not a good idea to be romantically involved with one's INSTRUCTOR (for the same reason as it isn't a good idea for JANEWAY to have a LOVE INTEREST on her ship).

Because people who instruct other people are also in a position to take advantage of that role and the kind of POWER that they have over others who are learning lessons from them.

And that's also the reason why we have LAWS against teachers having affairs with their students who can also be taken advantage of by them.

This only applies if the mentor/teacher has some sort of authority over the student. Seven doesn't have that problem as seen below.

NOTE the way SEVEN also tells the DOC how he screwed up the 3RD VERSE of the song.

The reason why he does so is because he realized the kind of ROMANTIC feelings he has for her, but SEVEN remains completely CLUELESS as to the reason why he messed up, because she doesn't RECOGNIZE the way he feels (because she also doesn't have the same kind of feelings for him that he has for her).

To her he's her TEACHER. Someone who instructs her in the ART of ROMANCE, and teacher's her how to dance, but he still isn't the OBJECT of her LOVE INTEREST or the reason why she's learning better SOCIAL SKILLS from him (which also becomes apparent later on when we discover how she's been creating and having HOLODECK DATES with a HOLOGRAPHIC version of CHACOTAY).

So yes they do SING EXTREMELY well together, but it's also a mistake to think the feelings that the DOC forms for SEVEN are reciprocated by her.

It feels like you're reaching. But clearly Seven has had more romantic scenes with the Doctor than she has had with Chakotay. Seven had one episode with a holodeck Chakotay and then while on the primitive planet, they were nothing but professional colleagues.

Because in each scene she also remains just as CLUELESS as JANEWAY does about the way CHACOTAY feels about her until the final scene where he tells her the story about the WARRIOR.

And then she HOLDS his HAND, but she still doesn't KISS him or do anything else to encourage him to think she thinks it's ok for them to be ROMANTICALLY involved.

And even IF she did have sex with him or begin a ROMANITC relationship with him while stranded on the PLANET where they may have been forced to remain for the rest of their lives, as soon as she returns back to her JOB of being CAPTAIN of the SHIP again, NOTE the way NONE of that matters or seems to have happened.

Because as PROFESSIONALS and OFFICERS they both also realize the reasons why they can't be involved with one another which could cause all kinds of problems for them ON the JOB.

See my above comments.

Look at the way B'Elanna and PARIS also had to SNEEK around when they first got involved and what kinds of RUMORS were floating around at that time.

People notice things like that, you can't HIDE it for very long.

I was also surprised that Lieutenant Torres was allowed to continue a relationship with Ensign Paris. Which by the way also knocks a Captain/First Officer problem into a hat.

And it's also HIGHLY UNLIKELY that SEVEN would see having a relationship with the DOC as a LOGICAL thing to do (due to her BORG MENTALITY which is also a bit like the VULCAN point of view where if something isn't LOGICAL then it's not worth pursuing).

In other words, EMOTIONS are also NOT something that the BORG took into consideration (which is also the reason why we keep hearing SEVEN saying IT'S NOT RELEVANT so often).

So to her it would also be IRRELEVANT to consider being ROMANTICALLY involved with a HOLOGRAPHIC being, which is also AMUSING when she ends up having a ROMATIC RELATIONSHIP with a HOLOGRAPHIC CHACOTAY.

I lost your argument there. Is she logical and not needing romance ? Does she find having a romance with a hologram acceptable? Did somebody tell the Doctor? In any case, I still don't see any points of connection between Chakotay and Seven.

Not that they aren't both nice people.

https://youtu.be/EE_Jd_njHgI

:wink:

@Tim-Buktu said:

This is why I expressed disappointment that as soon as Janeway and Chakoty were no longer Captain and First Officer they didn't have a massive romantic kiss.

The reason it didn't happen is JANEWAY didn't think they wouldn't be going back to the ship again, whereas CHACOTAY resigned himself to the fact that they might never leave the planet. Therefore he begins to let his feelings for her show, whereas she never gave up thinking she would be returning back to her job as CAPTAIN again.

As for SEVEN, the problem with her is she's basically still EMOTIONALLY a CHILD due to her capture by the BORG at age 6.

That's also the reason why she RELATES so well to NAOMI WILDMAN and tolerates her better than she does others her own age.

And the DOC is also basically still a CHILD as well in certain respects due to his learning how to be a BETTER HUMAN (just like SEVEN is also learning how to be a better human).

That sounds like a pretty romantic situation to me, two adult-children learning about social interactions together.

The term ADULT CHILDREN is an OXYMORON (like saying one has PLASTIC GLASSES or saying BOTTOMS UP).

Because either one is suppose to be a CHILD or an ADULT, but one also isn't suppose to be BOTH at the same time.

And CHILDREN are also still too EMOTIONALLY IMMATURE to have a ROMATIC RELATIONSHIP.

And the DOC'S lack of SKILLS were also different from SEVEN's. His were more like some of DATA's issues, where he didn't know when to shut up about something, whereas SEVEN'S issues were more based upon a kind of SOCIAL PHOBIA. Remember how the DOC was also ready to leave the ship when he became a big singing sensation on one of the planets they encountered? And how he got dumped after the inhabitants created another different HOLOGRAPHIC IMAGE of him to sing for them??? His OVER INFLATED EGO could be a MAJOR PAIN in the BUTT at times.

Didn't he also BORE the others to death with another one of his performances or lectures??? They were all dying to leave and he also remained CLUELESS about how miserable he was making them.

After his HUGE EGO got DEFLATED (when his fans rejected him for the other SINGER they created of him) then SEVEN also wrote him a FAN LETTER to REINFLATE it again. But she was also AWARE of what a BRAGGART and BORE he could be at times.


And when she tells him he's her MENTOR, that also indicates the way she feels about him, and that she doesn't see him ROMANTICALLY or in the same way as he sees her.

Because a MENTOR is a TEACHER, and it's also not a good idea to be romantically involved with one's INSTRUCTOR (for the same reason as it isn't a good idea for JANEWAY to have a LOVE INTEREST on her ship).

Because people who instruct other people are also in a position to take advantage of that role and the kind of POWER that they have over others who are learning lessons from them.

And that's also the reason why we have LAWS against teachers having affairs with their students who can also be taken advantage of by them.


This only applies if the mentor/teacher has some sort of authority over the student. Seven doesn't have that problem as seen below.


Technically the DOC even has POWER over JANEWAY due to the way he can ORDER her to remain in SICKBAY if she's ILL enough.


NOTE the way SEVEN also tells the DOC how he screwed up the 3RD VERSE of the song.

The reason why he does so is because he realized the kind of ROMANTIC feelings he has for her, but SEVEN remains completely CLUELESS as to the reason why he messed up, because she doesn't RECOGNIZE the way he feels (because she also doesn't have the same kind of feelings for him that he has for her).

To her he's her TEACHER. Someone who instructs her in the ART of ROMANCE, and teacher's her how to dance, but he still isn't the OBJECT of her LOVE INTEREST or the reason why she's learning better SOCIAL SKILLS from him (which also becomes apparent later on when we discover how she's been creating and having HOLODECK DATES with a HOLOGRAPHIC version of CHACOTAY).

So yes they do SING EXTREMELY well together, but it's also a mistake to think the feelings that the DOC forms for SEVEN are reciprocated by her.


It feels like you're reaching. But clearly Seven has had more romantic scenes with the Doctor than she has had with Chakotay. Seven had one episode with a holodeck Chakotay and then while on the primitive planet, they were nothing but professional colleagues.


The problem is for SEVEN it was simply DANCING LESSONS the DOC gives her, whereas for HIM it was more like a DATE( due to his INFACTUATION with her).

But imagine you're part of a CHORUS and then you PAIR OFF with someone as a way to PRACTICE a DUET part together.

That doesn't mean the PRACTICE SESSION would involve ROMANCE.

And that's what the SINGING and DANCING SESSIONS were for SEVEN ... they were just PRACTICE SESSIONS and DANCING LESSONS (because she's also NOT AWARE of how the DOC feels about her).

So yes there were more SCENES where we see her in ROMANTIC SITUATIONS with the DOC, but since she had no ROMANTIC interest in him, there was also NO ROMANCE in the scene on her part.

It would be the same as if one of the other 2 people from the CHORUS who PAIRED OFF to practice their DUET together had ROMANTIC feelings for the other one who didn't feel the same way about the other one.

In that case you'd have a ROMANTIC situation in the scene, but with it only being a ONE SIDED situation, then it wouldn't really be fair or accurate to refer to it as being a ROMANTIC scene.

Because ROMANCE also requires reciprocation which is also lacking on the part of SEVEN in the scene due to the way for her the DOC is simply her INSTRUCTOR who's giving her DANCE lessons.


Because in each scene she also remains just as CLUELESS as JANEWAY does about the way CHACOTAY feels about her until the final scene where he tells her the story about the WARRIOR.

And then she HOLDS his HAND, but she still doesn't KISS him or do anything else to encourage him to think she thinks it's ok for them to be ROMANTICALLY involved.

And even IF she did have sex with him or begin a ROMANITC relationship with him while stranded on the PLANET where they may have been forced to remain for the rest of their lives, as soon as she returns back to her JOB of being CAPTAIN of the SHIP again, NOTE the way NONE of that matters or seems to have happened.

Because as PROFESSIONALS and OFFICERS they both also realize the reasons why they can't be involved with one another which could cause all kinds of problems for them ON the JOB.

See my above comments.


Like the case where SEVEN is CLUELESS about how the DOC feels about her, JANEWAY is also CLUELESS about how CHACOTAY feels about her. And after she discovers the way he feels, all we see is her holding his hand, but we never see anything else to indicate anything else takes place between them. And IF something ROMANTIC did take place on the planet, there's also NO INDICATION of it when they RESUME their POSITIONS on the ship again where they behave as if NOTHING had happened.

In other words, it's also AMBIGUOUS as to whether or not anything ROMANTIC took place or not. But IF it did, then the relationship also ENDS once they leave that planet. Because after that we also NEVER see any indication that the 2 of them have any ROMANTIC feelings for each other.


Look at the way B'Elanna and PARIS also had to SNEEK around when they first got involved and what kinds of RUMORS were floating around at that time.

People notice things like that, you can't HIDE it for very long.

I was also surprised that Lieutenant Torres was allowed to continue a relationship with Ensign Paris. Which by the way also knocks a Captain/First Officer problem into a hat.


What RANK is she as CHIEF ENGINEER??? After he's thrown into the BRIGG for 30 days wasn't he also DEMOTED DOWN to the lowest rank possible again???

So she'd also OUT RANK him as being an OFFICER???


And it's also HIGHLY UNLIKELY that SEVEN would see having a relationship with the DOC as a LOGICAL thing to do (due to her BORG MENTALITY which is also a bit like the VULCAN point of view where if something isn't LOGICAL then it's not worth pursuing).

In other words, EMOTIONS are also NOT something that the BORG took into consideration (which is also the reason why we keep hearing SEVEN saying IT'S NOT RELEVANT so often).

So to her it would also be IRRELEVANT to consider being ROMANTICALLY involved with a HOLOGRAPHIC being, which is also AMUSING when she ends up having a ROMATIC RELATIONSHIP with a HOLOGRAPHIC CHACOTAY.


I lost your argument there. Is she logical and not needing romance ? Does she find having a romance with a hologram acceptable? Did somebody tell the Doctor? In any case, I still don't see any points of connection between Chakotay and Seven.


Sorry for not making things more clear.

It would probably seem ILLOGICAL to a former BORG to get ROMANTICALLY involved with a HOLOGRAM (who technically isn't HUMAN).

But the IRONY is how she still gets INVOLVED with the HOLOGRAPHIC VERSION of CHACOTAY that she creates as a way to PRACTICE how to behave around THE REAL CHACOTAY.

And it's also OK to not see any connection between them.

But when she visits the SHIP that CHACOTAY can't (because he's injured), and then again when they're stuck on that other planet together where they encounter the PRIMITIVE TRIBE, there's definitely a CONNECTION made between the 2 of them (just like when CHACOTAY was stuck on the other planet with JANEWAY).

But whereas JANEWAY was CLUELESS as to how CHACOTAY felt about her, HE was also CLUELESS about how SEVEN felt about him.


Not that they aren't both nice people.

https://youtu.be/EE_Jd_njHgI

:wink:


And yes they're also both nice people.

But Basically what we've got is a situation where THE DOC likes SEVEN ... who LIKES CHACOTAY ... who liked JANEWAY.

*DOC ---> SEVEN ---> CHACOTAY ----> JANEWAY *

But Basically what we've got is a situation where THE DOC likes SEVEN ... who LIKES CHACOTAY ... who liked JANEWAY.

*DOC ---> SEVEN ---> CHACOTAY ----> JANEWAY *

I think I can live with that Otherwise we'll just be going in circles as to who had chemistry and who didn't.

"What RANK is she as CHIEF ENGINEER??? After he's thrown into the BRIGG for 30 days wasn't he also DEMOTED DOWN to the lowest rank possible again???

Her "rank" was lieutenant, her "position" was Chief Engineer.

So she'd also OUT RANK him as being an OFFICER???"

Voyager seemed to me to play fast and loose with rank. Tom Paris dropped a rank for a year and nothing seemed to change. At other times Harry Kim (an ensign) would take charge of the ship as acting Captain. And how the heck did they let the Doctor keep his Emergency Command function?

Gack..now I'm starting to remember a lot of other plot holes.

There was another MARATHON SESSION on yesterday, so not sure which eppy it was, but in one of them PARIS told B'ELANNA that he OUTRANKED her. The MARATHON began with S3/Ep 16 which is called BLOOD FEVER, and ran Ep 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, etc. after that.

So it was in one of those eppy's they aired that TOM said this. But when JANEWAY gets him out of jail to be a crew member on the ship, why would she give him HIGHER RANK than B'Elanna? Is it because she turned into a REBEL which also made her an OUTLAW for a while? But then later on we also learn about what an OUTSTANDING STUDENT she'd been at STARFLEET and how her professor's had given her HIGH PRAISE. So JANEWAY also had those records on her.

Whatever the case may be, they also aired the eppy called UNITY which also helps to explain the reason why CHAKOTAY would feel attracted to SEVEN.

PLOT SUMMARY here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_(Star_Trek:_Voyager)#Plot

Chakotay's health gets worse, and the ex-Borg offer to connect him to a joint mind to heal his injuries, and he reluctantly accepts. Once part of the hive mind, he sees a montage of their memories.

It's the eppy where he visits a planet where FORMER BORG DRONES live who were disconnected from the collective and then formed their own society.

And at one point he's also INJURED so badly that he would have DIED if he didn't let them hook up some BORG TECHNOLOGY to him that enabled them to HEAL HIM.

And while he's hooked up to it he also sees and experiences their CHILDHOOD MEMORIES, because the device also enables him to see whatever they see in their minds.

So it's also as if he's a temporary member of the BORG HIVE, because he can also hear their VOICES in his head.

Then later on when SEVEN puts them in danger, the STARTREK CREW use the same KIND of BORG DEVICE on CHAKOTAY again, which also enables him to see her CHILDHOOD MEMORIES and to see how she was taken HOSTAGE by the BORG at age 6.

PLOT SUMMARY here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion_(Star_Trek:_Voyager)#Plot

After learning that the Borg have prevailed in their fight, Seven then turns on the Voyager crew and tries to assimilate the consoles. Janeway, having prepared for this, tells Chakotay to start "Operation Scorpion". Chakotay uses a neural relay to distract Seven long enough for Torres to electrify the console, knocking Seven out.

So what begins as his becoming ROMANTICALLY attracted to and attached to the other BLOND WOMAN (who's a FORMER BORG on the planet where the FORMER BORG members live), then proceeds to still another similar situation where he kind of MIND MELDS (to use a VULCAN term) with SEVEN.

So that would also help explain the reason why he'd feel a CLOSER CONNECTION to SEVEN than to other females on the ship.

Because he'd also actually have been INSIDE of her MIND and SEEN what's there.

Thus also making it possible for him to KNOW and UNDERSTAND her better than anyone else on the ship.

The eppy where he's connected to the MIND of SEVEN happens in S4 (where JANEWAY makes the DEAL with the BORG to fight together against the other SPECIES that can DEFEAT the BORG).

It's also the eppy where SEVEN is first introduced to the show and is disconnected from the HIVE after B'Elanna knocks her out when she tries to ASSIMILATE the SHIP's CONSOLE and the CREW.

And that also helps to explain the reason why SEVEN would feel more close to CHAKOTYA than she would to the DOC or to anyone else on the ship.

Because technically speaking he would also have (at least temporarily) been a member of her HIVE at the time when he SHARES her MIND and her CHILDHOOD MEMORIES with her.

As for the RANK ISSUES ...

CHECK THIS OUT:

read:http://trek.fm/feature-articles/voyager-and-the-pips-starfleet-ranks-in-the-delta-quadrant

Tom Paris also receives a promotion, but not before being demoted in rank (“Thirty Days”). We see him go from a confident lieutenant (j.g.) to a pensive ensign who sits in solitary confinement for almost a month.

Tom Paris is the first bridge officer to be demoted and imprisoned for insubordination. Ensign Paris then shares the junior officer experience with his BFF and fellow “one-pip”-er, Harry Kim. His superior officer girlfriend, Lt. (j.g. )B’Elanna Torres, enjoys ordering Tom around until he is eventually reinstated in rank almost two years later, and once again becomes the erstwhile Lt. (j.g.) Thomas Eugene Paris (“Unimatrix Zero, Part 1”).

It is left completely unexplained how each Maquis’ rank is determined. For instance, how do you make B’Elanna a lieutenant (j.g.) instead of a lieutenant or even an ensign? She spent two years at Starfleet Academy (“Eye of the Needle”), so does that mean if she had reached her junior year or pledged a sorority, she would have been a full lieutenant? Would a Maquis crewmember become an ensign if he did a few correspondence courses through the University of Starfleet Online?

The question of Chakotay’s “real” rank is a relatively minor one compared to the Great Rank Debacle of Tuvok & Tom. The first time these characters appear in a Starfleet uniform with rank, Tuvok is a lieutenant commander, and Paris is a full lieutenant (“Caretaker”).

It is never actually stated what rank Paris held before his youthful misconduct landed him in a New Zealand Federation Penal Settlement

assuming Tom was a lieutenant when he was imprisoned, it seems appropriate for Janeway to reactivate his rank

It also explains how Poor HARRY KIM never even gets promoted during the VOYAGE on VOYAGER.

_"So what begins as his becoming ROMANTICALLY attracted to and attached to the other BLOND WOMAN (who's a FORMER BORG on the planet where the FORMER BORG members live), then proceeds to still another similar situation where he kind of MIND MELDS (to use a VULCAN term) with SEVEN.

So that would also help explain the reason why he'd feel a CLOSER CONNECTION to SEVEN than to other females on the ship.

Because he'd also actually have been INSIDE of her MIND and SEEN what's there.

Thus also making it possible for him to KNOW and UNDERSTAND her better than anyone else on the ship.

The eppy where he's connected to the MIND of SEVEN happens in S4 (where JANEWAY makes the DEAL with the BORG to fight together against the other SPECIES that can DEFEAT the BORG).

It's also the eppy where SEVEN is first introduced to the show and is disconnected from the HIVE after B'Elanna knocks her out when she tries to ASSIMILATE the SHIP's CONSOLE and the CREW.

And that also helps to explain the reason why SEVEN would feel more close to CHAKOTYA than she would to the DOC or to anyone else on the ship.

Because technically speaking he would also have (at least temporarily) been a member of her HIVE at the time when he SHARES her MIND and her CHILDHOOD MEMORIES with her."


_ That actually makes a lot of sense. I just wish they would have put that thinking into some story lines. But as Cyrano Jones would say: "What would happen to mans search for knowledge?".

Military rank never made a lot of sense to me in real life let alone Star Trek. Why doesn't a Sargent Major outrank a Lieutenant Colonel? And where the heck does a Commodore fit in?

But on Voyager, rank seemed to be a good idea rather than a rule and then bringing in the Maquis only stirs the pot. But what do we have? The lowest ranking officer on a starship, once the captain, first officer and head of security are gone becomes acting captain. On TOS that would have fallen to Scotty. On Voyager, Be'lanna Torres should have been acting captain. And I still have problems with the Doctor becoming acting captain. I can see that for about five minutes before you get a real officer on the bridge. Otherwise they might as well feed a leadership textbook into the computer.

You're right about how later on they never reminded us about out how Chakotay and Seven had been connected to each other and how he saw her childhood memories inside of her mind.

And it's also easy to forget about it when each Season has about 25 eppy's in it and there were also still 3 SEASONS or at least 75 or more eppys left to go until we got to ENDGAME.

So it's also not right to expect the viewer to remember how he'd been inside of her mind when sudenly we discover they're a couple.

And if you hadn't started this topic, it would also be easy enough to overlook that scene and the implication of what it could indicate while watching it again a couple of days ago.

Plus there's also the other DIVERSIONS where he's attracted to JANEWAY while stranded on the PLANET, and the other situation where the other FEMALE claims she's given birth to his child (which the DOC later proves is NOT genetically his child).

So when we suddenly learn he's involved with SEVEN in the SERIES FINALE, it is a bit of a SHOCK and SURPRISE.

And it's only later while watching it again that one can see other things that happened between them that one wouldn't notice as much without already knowing they'd end up together at the end of the show.

And after reading that article and what you say, it's also easy enough to see how The RANK SYSTEM on VOYAGER definitely makes no sense.

In addition to that we also have the ALTERNATIVE TIME LINES where SEVEN DIED if ADMIRAL JANEWAY hadn't gone BACK in TIME and helped CAPT. JANEWAY when she lets the BORG QUEEN ASSIMILATE her after she infects herself with the VIRUS.

So that also makes things that much more confusing for us:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endgame_(Star_Trek:_Voyager)#Secondary/alternate_future_stories

Secondary/alternate future stories

Commander Chakotay and Seven of Nine are revealed to have started dating. Though Seven is at first wary of the relationship, and more so after Admiral Janeway tells her of her own death, Chakotay persuades her that he wants to be with her, even if it's uncertain how long they will be together; however, Janeway's older self suggests that Seven and Chakotay will eventually be married. In the alternative future, Seven died on the trip home and it is implied that Chakotay never recovers from the trauma of her death. **In one night time scene, Janeway is standing alone in the moonlight with a Bay wind blowing leaves on a flat grave marker inside San Francisco National Cemetery. She stoops to wipe the leaves away; the marker simply reads: Chakotay 2329 - 2394*.

So apparently he also died at age 65.

And it also tells us that the NEVER PROMOTED HARRY KIM finally made it to being the CAPTAIN of a SHIP:

Harry Kim is the captain of the USS Rhode Island. He goes to stop Admiral Janeway from going back in time, but he ultimately decides to help his old friend in her cause. In the present timeline, young Ensign Kim is anxious to pursue what is inside the nebula. An amused Captain Janeway tells him "you may be the captain some day, but not today." In the alternate future, Admiral Janeway reminds Captain Kim of the time when he was still an Ensign on Voyager that he wanted to enter the Borg-infested nebula because of the promise of a way home it held, and he reminds her that she stopped him. As a result, USS Voyager's return journey back to the Alpha Quadrant takes 23 years. Janeway says that she now regrets that decision, given what happened later on, and if she knew then that these things would happen she would have indeed taken the risk.

And that also make one wonder why ADMIRAL JANEWAY didn't go back in time to that TIME where she STOPS HARRY instead of going back to the time where she lets the BORG QUEEN ASSIMILATE her, because if she went back to the other time she may also not have needed to die???

You have such interesting references.

All I have is this:

https://youtu.be/Dcu6GEti_94

**In one night time scene, Janeway is standing alone in the moonlight with a Bay wind blowing leaves on a flat grave marker inside San Francisco National Cemetery. She stoops to wipe the leaves away; the marker simply reads: Chakotay 2329 - 2394*.

So apparently he also died at age 65.

Did Chakotay ever have a second name?

And it also tells us that the NEVER PROMOTED HARRY KIM finally made it to being the CAPTAIN of a SHIP:

Harry Kim is the captain of the USS Rhode Island. He goes to stop Admiral Janeway from going back in time, but he ultimately decides to help his old friend in her cause. In the present timeline, young Ensign Kim is anxious to pursue what is inside the nebula. An amused Captain Janeway tells him "you may be the captain some day, but not today." In the alternate future, Admiral Janeway reminds Captain Kim of the time when he was still an Ensign on Voyager that he wanted to enter the Borg-infested nebula because of the promise of a way home it held, and he reminds her that she stopped him. As a result, USS Voyager's return journey back to the Alpha Quadrant takes 23 years. Janeway says that she now regrets that decision, given what happened later on, and if she knew then that these things would happen she would have indeed taken the risk.

And that also make one wonder why ADMIRAL JANEWAY didn't go back in time to that TIME where she STOPS HARRY instead of going back to the time where she lets the BORG QUEEN ASSIMILATE her, because if she went back to the other time she may also not have needed to die???

So was "Endgame" an alternate future or the actual one for the Star Trek time line?

Just a thought: The Doctor should have a police call box. Probably presented by Tom Paris (who knows about such things).

" To our very own time traveling Doctor with no name, his very own TARDIS"

Thanks for the link.

Those guys are funny.

And TIME TRAVEL is definitely also way too confusing for my diminutive comprehension.

But since the VOYAGER is in the MUSEUM, apparently ADMIRAL JANEWAY going back in TIME enables them to GET HOME before SEVEN dies???

Not sure what happens after that, or if CHAKOTAY still dies at age 65 or not. Also don't know if he has a last name or not.

And yes having a TARDIS would also come in handy.

They sort of had one when they sent the messages through the MICRO WORMHOLE, and they also sent THE DOC to the station on JUPITER where he helped to cure his look a like CREATOR.

But that wasn't TIME TRAVEL. That was more like a SPACE TRAVEL situation where DATA could reach places that the other CREW could not.

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