So then the problem is allowing "spicy talk" to be defined as "sexism" which is then actionable.

Do people not realize that all the legal stuff is purely human invention? No great hand came down from the sky and wrote these laws. "There are federal laws against racism, sexism, and descrimination, as there should be;" begins to sound like Moses brought them down from Mount Sinai on stone tablets.

If these human-made laws are being abused/taken too far, they can be changed. "As they should be."

@Knixon said:

So then the problem is allowing "spicy talk" to be defined as "sexism" which is then actionable.

Do people not realize that all the legal stuff is purely human invention? No great hand came down from the sky and wrote these laws. "There are federal laws against racism, sexism, and descrimination, as there should be;" begins to sound like Moses brought them down from Mount Sinai on stone tablets.

If these human-made laws are being abused/taken too far, they can be changed. "As they should be."

Explain to me how "spicy talk" has any place in a professional setting? If you want to get salty, take it to the pub after work. Both men and women should be able to walk into their workplace and not overhear someone describing in graphic detail what they did to their date last night.

I already told you, I'd probably be right there listening (though I do have my limits; some "activities" you just don't need to hear about in detail!). But what about someone's Grandma who isn't into hearing about that stuff on the job? If it's a service job, what about customers, especially ones with children, overhearing inappropriate language? What about the white guy who makes a racist comment in front of other caucasians, not realizing that one (or more) of them is married to a person of color and takes offense? Or maybe, they aren't married to a POC but take exception to racism and prejudice?

I honestly don't see how asking people to conduct themselves in a professional and respectful manner AT WORK is so hard. It says more about the character of the person who can't be cool in a professional setting than it does about those who may take offense.

I just don't think government/law is the appropriate remedy for things like that, if you even want there to be a remedy, which I think should be up to the business owner. It's possible to make a different argument for actual government offices. But even government offices shouldn't be forced to have 9 (or whatever the number is today) different restrooms for however many different "genders" the activists are claiming now. Nor should even public schools be forced - under penalty of losing all funding - to allow male students to use the female restroom/locker room/etc if they "identify" as female at any particular time. Etc. These are all things that have come about under color of the laws you seem to support. Can't you see that it's going too far, and that some people want it to go too far because it suits their purposes?

@Knixon said:

I just don't think government/law is the appropriate remedy for things like that, if you even want there to be a remedy, which I think should be up to the business owner. It's possible to make a different argument for actual government offices. But even government offices shouldn't be forced to have 9 (or whatever the number is today) different restrooms for however many different "genders" the activists are claiming now. Nor should even public schools be forced - under penalty of losing all funding - to allow male students to use the female restroom/locker room/etc if they "identify" as female at any particular time. Etc. These are all things that have come about under color of the laws you seem to support. Can't you see that it's going too far, and that some people want it to go too far because it suits their purposes?

Well, the bathroom thing is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. I'm not touching that, except to say that I don't have any issue with gender-neutral bathrooms as long as they afford privacy to the person using them. If I can't see what you're doing in there, it's none of my business.

But discrimination laws are necessary and beneficial to humanity, as are laws against sexual inappropriateness. Otherwise, we might as well go back to the days of "No Irish need apply" help wanted signs, or *bosses extorting sexual favors in exchange for promotions, raises, or just keeping one's job.

*Oh wait, we are still IN those days!

"Gender Neutral" doesn't seem to be good enough for the activists. And I guess you haven't heard, people have lost their jobs and been fined etc, for accidentally using the "wrong" gender pronoun when referring to a student in a classroom, etc. But heck, there's only what, maybe a dozen of them now? And heck, jr high and high school teachers and college professors might only deal with, what, maybe a HUNDRED or more different students, on a daily basis? So they shouldn't have any problem at all remembering which particular pronoun each student might insist upon, or how their preference might change from time to time, lest they be "insulted" or "demeaned" or whatever, and then demand official action - sanction - against the offender.

What you don't seem to realize, at least not yet, is that all of this stuff comes from the same basic place: a desire for control and conformity, from the people who SUPPOSEDLY value freedom and diversity more than anyone else.

Hearing this song by one of my favorite groups the other day made me think of this thread. I wonder what he would have said if she HAD minded sharing the night together?

@Knixon said:

"Gender Neutral" doesn't seem to be good enough for the activists. And I guess you haven't heard, people have lost their jobs and been fined etc, for accidentally using the "wrong" gender pronoun when referring to a student in a classroom, etc. But heck, there's only what, maybe a dozen of them now? And heck, jr high and high school teachers and college professors might only deal with, what, maybe a HUNDRED or more different students, on a daily basis? So they shouldn't have any problem at all remembering which particular pronoun each student might insist upon, or how their preference might change from time to time, lest they be "insulted" or "demeaned" or whatever, and then demand official action - sanction - against the offender.

What you don't seem to realize, at least not yet, is that all of this stuff comes from the same basic place: a desire for control and conformity, from the people who SUPPOSEDLY value freedom and diversity more than anyone else.

Knixon Knixon Knixon, society needs rules, otherwise there would anarchy and chaos. And it has been my experience that HR departments and management, when presented with a complaint from someone, will usually just give warnings (depending on the severity, of course) - basically just pull a person aside and say "Hey, someone complained about your language (or what have you), just be cool going forward, ok?

At my former job, and at my husband's current job, there were guys who had multiple sexual and hostile work environment complaints against them. It took a manager at my job finally putting her foot down and saying "look, how many incidents do we need on record before we let this guy go?" before he was finally termed. At my husband's job, the last complaintant demanded that corporate be informed - HE (yes, he) refused to let it be swept under the rug as it had been many times before. The only reason the accused finally went down was because the Facilities Manager was off and couldn't run interference - turns out, he was friends with the jerk in question and had been protecting him.

So for every instance of someone being fired for what you deem a stupid reason, there are many people who still have their jobs who shouldn't. It's not like people are being fired left and right for every little thing. The cases you get all worked up over are few and far between. And I dare say there is more to the story than what we hear.

@Lemons said:

Hearing this song by one of my favorite groups the other day made me think of this thread. I wonder what he would have said if she HAD minded sharing the night together?

Ha! I haven't heard that song in ages!

The one that gets me is "Baby it's Cold Outside" - talk about not taking no for an answer!

@Gothish520 said:

@Lemons said:

Hearing this song by one of my favorite groups the other day made me think of this thread. I wonder what he would have said if she HAD minded sharing the night together?

Ha! I haven't heard that song in ages!

The one that gets me is "Baby it's Cold Outside" - talk about not taking no for an answer!

Yeah, it took a long time before I paid enough attention to the lyrics to realize that, but you're right!

@Lemons said:

@Gothish520 said:

@Lemons said:

Hearing this song by one of my favorite groups the other day made me think of this thread. I wonder what he would have said if she HAD minded sharing the night together?

Ha! I haven't heard that song in ages!

The one that gets me is "Baby it's Cold Outside" - talk about not taking no for an answer!

Yeah, it took a long time before I paid enough attention to the lyrics to realize that, but you're right!

It never really dawned on me until one Christmas when it was playing on our Musak at work, and a kid I worked with pointed out how...uncomfortable the lyrics are. Never looked at the song the same again! I still like Lady Antebellum's version, despite the uneasiness the song instills.

@Gothish520 said:

@Knixon said:

"Gender Neutral" doesn't seem to be good enough for the activists. And I guess you haven't heard, people have lost their jobs and been fined etc, for accidentally using the "wrong" gender pronoun when referring to a student in a classroom, etc. But heck, there's only what, maybe a dozen of them now? And heck, jr high and high school teachers and college professors might only deal with, what, maybe a HUNDRED or more different students, on a daily basis? So they shouldn't have any problem at all remembering which particular pronoun each student might insist upon, or how their preference might change from time to time, lest they be "insulted" or "demeaned" or whatever, and then demand official action - sanction - against the offender.

What you don't seem to realize, at least not yet, is that all of this stuff comes from the same basic place: a desire for control and conformity, from the people who SUPPOSEDLY value freedom and diversity more than anyone else.

Knixon Knixon Knixon, society needs rules, otherwise there would anarchy and chaos. And it has been my experience that HR departments and management, when presented with a complaint from someone, will usually just give warnings (depending on the severity, of course) - basically just pull a person aside and say "Hey, someone complained about your language (or what have you), just be cool going forward, ok?

At my former job, and at my husband's current job, there were guys who had multiple sexual and hostile work environment complaints against them. It took a manager at my job finally putting her foot down and saying "look, how many incidents do we need on record before we let this guy go?" before he was finally termed. At my husband's job, the last complaintant demanded that corporate be informed - HE (yes, he) refused to let it be swept under the rug as it had been many times before. The only reason the accused finally went down was because the Facilities Manager was off and couldn't run interference - turns out, he was friends with jerk in question and had been protecting him.

So for every instance of someone being fired for what you deem a stupid reason, there are many people who still have their jobs who shouldn't. It's not like people are being fired left and right for every little thing. The cases you get all worked up over are few and far between. And I dare say there is more to the story than what we hear.

I'm a lifelong adherent to the maxim "it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer," which indeed is actually part of the foundation of the whole US system which is based on "presumed innocent until proven guilty" rather than "presumed guilty until proven innocent" which you still find in some parts of the world today.

You might also want to look into the Title IX excesses, in which (male) students are essentially convicted, expelled from school, and their lives basically ruined simply on the basis of an accusation. Which is not at all in keeping with "innocent until proven guilty." But which people on the left, notably including former House speaker Nancy Pelosi, still support and might even want to increase.

And just out of curiosity, how many miscarriages of justice would it take for you to believe there's a problem?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqG5cxqBiME

"Twelve men were accidentally hanged at Whitby Assizes this afternoon whilst considering their verdict. This is one of the worst miscarriages of justice in Britain since Tuesday."

A favorite line from Monty Python.

@Knixon said:

@Gothish520 said:

@Knixon said:

"Gender Neutral" doesn't seem to be good enough for the activists. And I guess you haven't heard, people have lost their jobs and been fined etc, for accidentally using the "wrong" gender pronoun when referring to a student in a classroom, etc. But heck, there's only what, maybe a dozen of them now? And heck, jr high and high school teachers and college professors might only deal with, what, maybe a HUNDRED or more different students, on a daily basis? So they shouldn't have any problem at all remembering which particular pronoun each student might insist upon, or how their preference might change from time to time, lest they be "insulted" or "demeaned" or whatever, and then demand official action - sanction - against the offender.

What you don't seem to realize, at least not yet, is that all of this stuff comes from the same basic place: a desire for control and conformity, from the people who SUPPOSEDLY value freedom and diversity more than anyone else.

Knixon Knixon Knixon, society needs rules, otherwise there would anarchy and chaos. And it has been my experience that HR departments and management, when presented with a complaint from someone, will usually just give warnings (depending on the severity, of course) - basically just pull a person aside and say "Hey, someone complained about your language (or what have you), just be cool going forward, ok?

At my former job, and at my husband's current job, there were guys who had multiple sexual and hostile work environment complaints against them. It took a manager at my job finally putting her foot down and saying "look, how many incidents do we need on record before we let this guy go?" before he was finally termed. At my husband's job, the last complaintant demanded that corporate be informed - HE (yes, he) refused to let it be swept under the rug as it had been many times before. The only reason the accused finally went down was because the Facilities Manager was off and couldn't run interference - turns out, he was friends with jerk in question and had been protecting him.

So for every instance of someone being fired for what you deem a stupid reason, there are many people who still have their jobs who shouldn't. It's not like people are being fired left and right for every little thing. The cases you get all worked up over are few and far between. And I dare say there is more to the story than what we hear.

I'm a lifelong adherent to the maxim "it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer," which indeed is actually part of the foundation of the whole US system which is based on "presumed innocent until proven guilty" rather than "presumed guilty until proven innocent" which you still find in some parts of the world today.

You might also want to look into the Title IX excesses, in which (male) students are essentially convicted, expelled from school, and their lives basically ruined simply on the basis of an accusation. Which is not at all in keeping with "innocent until proven guilty." But which people on the left, notably including former House speaker Nancy Pelosi, still support and might even want to increase.

And just out of curiosity, how many miscarriages of justice would it take for you to believe there's a problem?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqG5cxqBiME

"Twelve men were accidentally hanged at Whitby Assizes this afternoon whilst considering their verdict. This is one of the worst miscarriages of justice in Britain since Tuesday."

A favorite line from Monty Python.

But how do you know these cases are miscarriages of justice? Do you know every single detail? How do you know the expelled students are innocent? How do you know there was no investigation in each and every case? And if some teacher got fired for calling a him a her, maybe that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe he was warned or written up and continued with his behavior. Maybe he was a crappy teacher and this was a good way to get him off payroll. After all, they got Al Capone for tax evasion.

I just don't see what you are getting all worked up about. People have the right to go to work and not be subject to other people's nastiness. Again I ask, what is wrong with being professional in a professional setting?

@Gothish520 said:

But how do you know these cases are miscarriages of justice? Do you know every single detail? How do you know the expelled students are innocent? How do you know there was no investigation in each and every case? And if some teacher got fired for calling a him a her, maybe that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe he was warned or written up and continued with his behavior. Maybe he was a crappy teacher and this was a good way to get him off payroll. After all, they got Al Capone for tax evasion.

I just don't see what you are getting all worked up about. People have the right to go to work and not be subject to other people's nastiness. Again I ask, what is wrong with being professional in a professional setting?

I know because I follow the stories. Students have gotten bounced from a university within days or sometimes even hours, without a chance to present contrary evidence or even make an argument. At some university "courts" the defendant doesn't even have a right to argue. Simply on the basis that "women must be believed."

The gender pronoun stuff is not just "he" or "she." As I've mentioned before, there's a BUNCH of them now. Including, for example, specific pronouns for someone who was born male, wants to be female, but then claims to be a lesbian. Or however that works. So if you see someone with long hair and female features and wearing a dress etc, in your classroom, and you call that person "her," you could be in big trouble if it's really a male getting ready to be a female lesbian. Which requires you address them as "Xer" or something. If THEY think so. Which is another part of the problem: There are no actual rules. So you can't follow some established path to determine what's the "correct" term to use, and your employer will support you if you did it right. Each person gets to decide for themselves. And it can change if they decide to change it. Good luck navigating THAT minefield.

@Knixon said:

@Gothish520 said:

But how do you know these cases are miscarriages of justice? Do you know every single detail? How do you know the expelled students are innocent? How do you know there was no investigation in each and every case? And if some teacher got fired for calling a him a her, maybe that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe he was warned or written up and continued with his behavior. Maybe he was a crappy teacher and this was a good way to get him off payroll. After all, they got Al Capone for tax evasion.

I just don't see what you are getting all worked up about. People have the right to go to work and not be subject to other people's nastiness. Again I ask, what is wrong with being professional in a professional setting?

I know because I follow the stories. Students have gotten bounced from a university within days or sometimes even hours, without a chance to present contrary evidence or even make an argument. At some university "courts" the defendant doesn't even have a right to argue. Simply on the basis that "women must be believed."

The gender pronoun stuff is not just "he" or "she." As I've mentioned before, there's a BUNCH of them now. Including, for example, specific pronouns for someone who was born male, wants to be female, but then claims to be a lesbian. Or however that works. So if you see someone with long hair and female features and wearing a dress etc, in your classroom, and you call that person "her," you could be in big trouble if it's really a male getting ready to be a female lesbian. Which requires you address them as "Xer" or something. If THEY think so. Which is another part of the problem: There are no actual rules. So you can't follow some established path to determine what's the "correct" term to use, and your employer will support you if you did it right. Each person gets to decide for themselves. And it can change if they decide to change it. Good luck navigating THAT minefield.

If someone feels they are wrongfully expelled or wrongfully fired, they can file a complaint or a countersuit or something to have their side heard. I find it very hard to believe that people are being kicked out left and right based on one person's word, with no corroborating evidence, statements, etc. If a person chooses to accept their punishment without fighting for their right to be heard, then perhaps there's a reason for that.

The schools set it up that way, largely at the demand of activists threatening loss of funding if the schools don't toe the line on the activists' interpretation of Title IX. A lawsuit isn't such an easy or obvious thing, since the schools aren't sending someone to jail or whatever so there's less of a claim of violation of rights. And it can be argued that as long as the school is following its own rules - no matter how misguided or even outrageous the rules might be - there's no "standing" for a lawsuit.

Most people never have a serious run-in with "administrative law" and so don't realize how crazy and one-sided it can be. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be corrected, even if YOU haven't fallen victim to it yet. Most cities, for example, have adopted a "model code" for their city ordinances etc which basically means that you can't do anything right, and THEY can't do anything wrong.