As an objective fan, I could tell the difference in writing between 1-5 and 6-7, especially 7. I actually just binge watched the whole series about a month ago, and much of what's going on in season 7 is a far departure from what happened in 1-5. I'd almost say that it's incoherent to it.

And it's apparent what GRRM brought to the table that is missing now. Basically, character development, dialogue, more adult material, and a slower tune to story development. Probably more too, but that's off the top of my head.

To be fair, though, I made it this far and am still having fun with it. Maybe, and I hope, they can wrap it up amazingly in season 8...

D&D have minimal information. They know how the story is meant to end, who dies, what the author intends to convey but likely no more details than the absolutely necessary. They knew about Hodor, for instance, because his name had to be explained, they also knew Shireen would burn and obviously that Stannis fails and dies too. They have referred to that one time GRRM gave them extensive information about these key elements but that was years ago and I don't think they ever mentioned any updates to it. Cersei becoming queen, Daenerys deciding to change focus to go north instead of pushing through with her conquest of the Iron Throne are part of this main structure, as well as her likely death north of the Wall. The last two events were heavily implied in her visions at the House of the Undying in S2E10. Sansa becoming queen of some sort is very much one of those key goals too.

D&D had plenty of information regarding the characters. They had a lot of info on: Arya's character : she seems so different compared to earlier seasons, no personality at all now. Euron's character : the badass in the books has turned into a generic side character now. Jon Snow : he hasn't grown as a character since his stabbing. King in the North going on stupid errands. No plot advancement here. The white walkers : now it's just a zombie flick. The undead attacking like zombies, growling and shit ? List could go on. What they absolutely fucked up : reunions of characters. Look at the conversations : Jon and Jorah, Jon and Gendry, Tyrion and Jaime, Sansa and Arya, Benjen and Jon, Benjen and Bran, Jorah and Daenerys, Daenerys and Jon .... absolutely everything. All the characters that have been developed so carefully so far now just act completely out of character. What they also fucked up hard : directing and script writing regarding passage of time : a show like South Park, which has 20 minutes an episode, and they do it in a week does the whole passage of time thing 10 times better. It seems like some dude decides that x and y should happen, and then tells everyone "make it happen" , so they cram a bunch of nonrelated and zero plot advancement stuff randomly into episodes.

@almonigal said:

D&D had plenty of information regarding the characters. They had a lot of info on: Arya's character : she seems so different compared to earlier seasons, no personality at all now. Euron's character : the badass in the books has turned into a generic side character now. Jon Snow : he hasn't grown as a character since his stabbing. King in the North going on stupid errands. No plot advancement here. The white walkers : now it's just a zombie flick. The undead attacking like zombies, growling and shit ? List could go on. What they absolutely fucked up : reunions of characters. Look at the conversations : Jon and Jorah, Jon and Gendry, Tyrion and Jaime, Sansa and Arya, Benjen and Jon, Benjen and Bran, Jorah and Daenerys, Daenerys and Jon .... absolutely everything. All the characters that have been developed so carefully so far now just act completely out of character. What they also fucked up hard : directing and script writing regarding passage of time : a show like South Park, which has 20 minutes an episode, and they do it in a week does the whole passage of time thing 10 times better. It seems like some dude decides that x and y should happen, and then tells everyone "make it happen" , so they cram a bunch of nonrelated and zero plot advancement stuff randomly into episodes.

I just wrote this in another thread about the change in quality of writing since the OG double R Martin left. We were lucky to get that much out of him in the first place I suppose. I can ride out the remainder of the show hoping that events as illogical as recent happenings are minimized.

Maybe we're being too hard on the writers, I can definitely see a ton of pressure being put on them by producers to get from point A to Z by any means even if they have to walk in reverse to get there which is what happened in the last episode, so the writers may be working under fire. Still the logic cannot continually be forfeited just to get the table set a certain way or it's gonna be a long Season 8. I think season 8 will be much tighter with a lot of scheming and maneuvering from all parties/sides/etc. I just hope that when it comes time for the final series wrap it's done very very meticulously, covering everything and everyone that they've implanted into our minds over the years instead of illogical nonsense. AND do it within the confines of their established characteristics, behave like we know them to behave, not doing 180's on their beliefs just to set a scene. If they betray what is known to be known about them and the logistics of the GoT's universe, particularly pissing all over the geographic details, it zaps many viewers out of the story, me for example.

Martin is wonderful at creating vivid characters, BUT. He keeps adding more and more of them, until the plot basically gets away from him. At the rate he is going, I don't expect him to ever complete the series.

I really think D&D have done a wonderful job of streamlining the books for television. They've discarded a lot of extraneous material. Yes, it is a bit rushed, but they have to maintain a fast pace.

@ThrillKillz said:

Maybe we're being too hard on the writers, I can definitely see a ton of pressure being put on them by producers to get from point A to Z by any means even if they have to walk in reverse to get there which is what happened in the last episode, so the writers may be working under fire. Still the logic cannot continually be forfeited just to get the table set a certain way or it's gonna be a long Season 8. I think season 8 will be much tighter with a lot of scheming and maneuvering from all parties/sides/etc. I just hope that when it comes time for the final series wrap it's done very very meticulously, covering everything and everyone that they've implanted into our minds over the years instead of illogical nonsense. AND do it within the confines of their established characteristics, behave like we know them to behave, not doing 180's on their beliefs just to set a scene. If they betray what is known to be known about them and the logistics of the GoT's universe, particularly pissing all over the geographic details, it zaps many viewers out of the story, me for example.

No, we're not. There is no pressure on them. HBO would love to have 10 or more seasons but D&D are the one who always insisted on finishing in 7 seasons. They have compromised in that there will be 13 episodes in two shorter seasons instead of 10 for the last stretch home. They are the ones who are taking shortcuts, and they are the ones who could write excellent material aside from the books in earlier seasons but decided to give you what you see today. They are dumbing down to reach a wider audience, focussing on reunions, spectacular action and cheesy love stories. The ratings make them right. They will not come back to the tight plot logic of the origins.

@Leo of Red Keep said:

@ThrillKillz said:

Maybe we're being too hard on the writers, I can definitely see a ton of pressure being put on them by producers to get from point A to Z by any means even if they have to walk in reverse to get there which is what happened in the last episode, so the writers may be working under fire. Still the logic cannot continually be forfeited just to get the table set a certain way or it's gonna be a long Season 8. I think season 8 will be much tighter with a lot of scheming and maneuvering from all parties/sides/etc. I just hope that when it comes time for the final series wrap it's done very very meticulously, covering everything and everyone that they've implanted into our minds over the years instead of illogical nonsense. AND do it within the confines of their established characteristics, behave like we know them to behave, not doing 180's on their beliefs just to set a scene. If they betray what is known to be known about them and the logistics of the GoT's universe, particularly pissing all over the geographic details, it zaps many viewers out of the story, me for example.

No, we're not. There is no pressure on them. HBO would love to have 10 or more seasons but D&D are the one who always insisted on finishing in 7 seasons. They have compromised in that there will be 13 episodes in two shorter seasons instead of 10 for the last stretch home. They are the ones who are taking shortcuts, and they are the ones who could write excellent material aside from the books in earlier seasons but decided to give you what you see today. They are dumbing down to reach a wider audience, focussing on reunions, spectacular action and cheesy love stories. The ratings make them right. They will not come back to the tight plot logic of the origins.

Pretty much right. D&D, focus on something else, noone cares really. Focus on your cappy spinoff money grubbing projects. Let competent people manage GoT. You tried, and you failed. Time for new writers, new directors.

"They are dumbing down to reach a wider audience, focusing on reunions, spectacular action and cheesy love stories."

I don't understand this criticism. Earlier there was a contrived non-reunion where Sansa and Arya were just a couple of miles apart at the Eyrie and Arya suddenly decided to go to Bravos instead. Talisa's story-line was so rushed that she was playing Florence Nightingale at one point and flashing her breasts at Robb five minutes later -- the writers had a Red Wedding to set up. And I was thinking "Oh, no, cheesy zombies" at the second-season finale. The series has had ups and downs all along; I don't see a general decline.

@CharlesTheBold said:

"They are dumbing down to reach a wider audience, focusing on reunions, spectacular action and cheesy love stories."

I don't understand this criticism. Earlier there was a contrived non-reunion where Sansa and Arya were just a couple of miles apart at the Eyrie and Arya suddenly decided to go to Bravos instead. Talisa's story-line was so rushed that she was playing Florence Nightingale at one point and flashing her breasts at Robb five minutes later -- the writers had a Red Wedding to set up. And I was thinking "Oh, no, cheesy zombies" at the second-season finale. The series has had ups and downs all along; I don't see a general decline.

Understand that all the criticism is directed at whoever moron forced people to do 7 episodes instead of 10. That's 1 max 3 morons, who forced the writers to chop off the story. Budget and all that shit. You can fill 3 episodes easy with conversations and no cgi, but sometimes morons get into positions where they can decide.

@almonigal said:

Understand that all the criticism is directed at whoever moron forced people to do 7 episodes instead of 10. That's 1 max 3 morons, who forced the writers to chop off the story. Budget and all that shit. You can fill 3 episodes easy with conversations and no cgi, but sometimes morons get into positions where they can decide.

Do some research and you'll soon find out that the number of episodes is the decision of the writers. They always announced an intended length of 7 seasons and settled for an extended total of 73 episodes in 8 seasons. Their argument is that there is no more story to tell and they do not want the show to outstay its welcome. The extension is very likely the result of an increased budget making it possible to add expensive battle sequences. HBO would love the show to go for 10 seasons or more. It's not like they are losing money on it.

"Understand that all the criticism is directed at whoever moron forced people to do 7 episodes instead of 10."

Really? then why all the talk about the writes being inferior and unable to function without the inspiration of the novel -- an assertion that has nothing to do with the length of the seasons.

@CharlesTheBold said:

"Understand that all the criticism is directed at whoever moron forced people to do 7 episodes instead of 10."

Really? then why all the talk about the writes being inferior and unable to function without the inspiration of the novel -- an assertion that has nothing to do with the length of the seasons.

Writers are not inferior. They are just pressed. If not for D&D, we would not have those Arya and Tywin scenes, they were gold. Stop shitting me saying that the writers decided, they cant decide everything. You got cast salaries to consider. 99% of the time, its the producers. And that fan service shit, that Ed Sheeran crap and everything else, its not the writers. Its some lame ass producer or executive or crap like that

I don't consider them inferior. I said other posters were unfairly calling them inferior. I think they've done an excellent job boiling down a sprawling epic into a coherent and wonderful TV series.

And for the record, the Ed Sheeran stuff didn't bother me, because I never heard of him. To me he was a nice guy Arya met on the road and a refreshing change from all the other goons that she keeps running into . The worst producer-forced cameo that I have ever saw was on STAR TREK VOYAGER, where UPN forced the show to write in a part for their wrestling champion, who was too stupid to act convincingly.