"And his dumb decisions just keep piling up after that. He constantly finds himself in dangerous situations that he caused himself by not paying attention and not thinking logically."

If he didn't do these things then there would be no show!

I haven't seen the show or played the game (& have no wish to), so I do not know how close the TV characters are to their respective characters in the game.

@D-magic said: Speaking of that Kathleen, that was huge miscast. There was nothing charismatic about her to be believable that she leads a rebellion and commands army of militants. And that forced cruelty is just too random, psychopathic. Seems like killing lots of people in the world that already lost most of its population seems like a huge waste of work force and genetical diversity, there is no planning ahead. And one she kills is a Doctor, ffs, you don't kill doctors in apocalypse. Really weak writing for the sake of showing something cruel and shocking without any logical reason behind to justify it. These people were trying to survive in a dangerous world, there should be no judging here.

It's not apparent now but if they go in the direction of the game's plot, then it is trying to teach the lesson that revenge is a waste. There is a reason why modern societies do not have a judge or a an attorney working cases that involves people they know. People are too emotional. If you were to ask me if the SOB who raped and murdered my daughter deserves the most cruel death, you GD right I am not only going to agree but would wish to participate in doling out the punishment. But the rational me says that only animals behave like that and just because someone behaved like an animal to a person doesn't mean we should as well. So yeah, the show is clobbering you over the head with a message which is a shame because it says you think your audience is stupid. Of course, this all relies on the fact if it does keep the direction of the game's plot and so far it has pretty much followed it to a tee. Except there was no KC militia subplot.

@bratface said:

If he didn't do these things then there would be no show!

Things can happen to move the plot of the show without him being so dumb. Walter White also gets himself into dangerous situations, but it's not because he is dumb. Even if he makes mistakes or miscalculates something, there are great justifications why he does it and clear intentions. Joel seems to be just dumb. I mean, he spreads the broken glass over the floor to hear someone is coming, which is great. But is that all the precautions that he makes? That's all? Then the kid steps on it, makes noise and... nothing happens, there is no payoff for this plan. Joel doesn't wake up and he ends up being with gun in his face. How stupid is that? He does it like it worked for him before, but it doesn't work this time?

I blame the writers for not doing a better job writing smart and logical decisions and actions for Joel that pay off his smarts. It reminds me of that failed Y: The last man show that had another super stupid main lead, but that Yorick was a complete moron. I find it hard to follow stupid characters that do stupid things, unless it's intentional and for a comedy.

They changed the characters so much. their behaviour, attitude. Im started to be bored, and pissed off by the whole thing.

The game was completely free of any agenda when it came out.. TLOU2 came, Anita Sarkesian had just blown up with her agenda rant about feminism in video games, and Druckmann took note, we see woke crap creeping in.. Ellie is a lesbian, and you pass by a street that had a Pride parade interrupted by the outbreak. Pride flags and banners spread around.. Right!

This TV show take it all out. A full episode 3 dedicated to homosexuality. Episode 6: In the game, Tommy´s wife is white. In this TV Show. She is black. The game i loved is totally ruined by woke crap. Im so sick of having LGBTQ shoved up my arse. The writers of this show seems terrified of showing a straight white couple..

Social agenda is ruining everything.

@the_blueeyes said:

They changed the characters so much. their behaviour, attitude. Im started to be bored, and pissed off by the whole thing.

The game was completely free of any agenda when it came out.. TLOU2 came, Anita Sarkesian had just blown up with her agenda rant about feminism in video games, and Druckmann took note, we see woke crap creeping in.. Ellie is a lesbian, and you pass by a street that had a Pride parade interrupted by the outbreak. Pride flags and banners spread around.. Right!

This TV show take it all out. A full episode 3 dedicated to homosexuality. Episode 6: In the game, Tommy´s wife is white. In this TV Show. She is black. The game i loved is totally ruined by woke crap. Im so sick of having LGBTQ shoved up my arse. The writers of this show seems terrified of showing a straight white couple..

Social agenda is ruining everything.

Who gives a shit what color the people are? How does that make the story different? And Ellie IS a lesbian in the game. I don't understand why people get butthurt over "But she was white in the game! Why did they change her to black! WOKE CRAP!". You really have no idea how whiney that sounds, do you? They added a bunch of stuff that wasn't in the game because you cannot fill an entire season with the material of story you have in the game. If you piece together all of the cut scenes, what does that come out to? 5 maybe 6 hours? So of course they have to pad it out with stuff that may have happened in the background of the game that we never saw. It is heavily implied that Bill's partner was also his homosexual lover in the game. They just changed it from them hating each other to loving each other which is not a bad change IMO.

I decided a long time ago I'm not watching this show, I saw how they ruined the second game with politics and given Pedro's politics I pretty much knew what to expect with this show so I've already written it off.

Then I saw a clip from episode 6(?) where they blatantly praise communism. The ideology that has led to over 100 million deaths. I don't watch commie praising bullcrap. All this other stuff you guys are arguing about, it's just communism. They take over popular works and then ruin them to push anti-capitalism and pro-communism. Even Ant-Man 3 praises socialism. They associate themselves with black people, gays, women, immigrants etc as a shield against criticisms against their pushes for communism. That's all this is.

@cswood said:

I decided a long time ago I'm not watching this show, I saw how they ruined the second game with politics and given Pedro's politics I pretty much knew what to expect with this show so I've already written it off.

Then I saw a clip from episode 6(?) where they blatantly praise communism. The ideology that has led to over 100 million deaths. I don't watch commie praising bullcrap. All this other stuff you guys are arguing about, it's just communism. They take over popular works and then ruin them to push anti-capitalism and pro-communism. Even Ant-Man 3 praises socialism. They associate themselves with black people, gays, women, immigrants etc as a shield against criticisms against their pushes for communism. That's all this is.

Socialism & communism ARE NOT THE SAME!

🙄

https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-communism-and-socialism-195448

@bratface said:

@cswood said:

I decided a long time ago I'm not watching this show, I saw how they ruined the second game with politics and given Pedro's politics I pretty much knew what to expect with this show so I've already written it off.

Then I saw a clip from episode 6(?) where they blatantly praise communism. The ideology that has led to over 100 million deaths. I don't watch commie praising bullcrap. All this other stuff you guys are arguing about, it's just communism. They take over popular works and then ruin them to push anti-capitalism and pro-communism. Even Ant-Man 3 praises socialism. They associate themselves with black people, gays, women, immigrants etc as a shield against criticisms against their pushes for communism. That's all this is.

Socialism & communism ARE NOT THE SAME!

🙄

https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-communism-and-socialism-195448

Well you're right, socialists are actually fascists, but their methods are nearly identical. Chocolate cyanide ice cream and vanilla cyanide ice cream might taste different, but they're still both technically ice cream and eating either has the exact same result. Socialism is usually the step the precedes communism, but the end result is communism; destroying capitalism, disarming the people so they can't rise up, and putting the power and means of production in the hands of the government with the intent of everyone sharing everything and no more personal property. Communism doesn't work beyond the confines of a family unit and socialism only works if people don't rebel and just up and leave to go someplace where they're not being taxed to death.

If we lived in a socialist or communist society we would not even be able to have this conversation without the government putting us in jail or having our social credit scores tanked.

@cswood said:

I decided a long time ago I'm not watching this show, I saw how they ruined the second game with politics and given Pedro's politics I pretty much knew what to expect with this show so I've already written it off.

Then I saw a clip from episode 6(?) where they blatantly praise communism. The ideology that has led to over 100 million deaths. I don't watch commie praising bullcrap. All this other stuff you guys are arguing about, it's just communism. They take over popular works and then ruin them to push anti-capitalism and pro-communism. Even Ant-Man 3 praises socialism. They associate themselves with black people, gays, women, immigrants etc as a shield against criticisms against their pushes for communism. That's all this is.

They didn't "praise" communism. They simply pointed out that what their commune was, was in fact, communism. They didn't praise it. They didn't say, "Golly gee, aren't things SO much better now that all the filthy capitalists are gone and we can now sing kumbaya and worship at the feet of Karl Marx?" They also pointed out that people in leadership positions are DEMOCRATICALLY elected. I swear, people always get on their hind legs whenever they even hear the C or S word without fully even understanding what it actually means.

And as bratface pointed out, communism and socialism are not the same thing. It is good to have socialistic programs in any society. Any socialist programs initiated in the US have proven to be extremely popular such as social security and medicare because any modern society should in fact help out the poor, the elderly, and the infirm. Don't fall for the scare tactics initiated by people who all they want is to exploit your ignorance for a paycheck. Be smarter, be better than them.

The poor guy can't catch a break. After episode 6 it seems that he is not only dumb, but also incompetent. Was he same way in the game too? To sum things up, after he left Boston his partner was killed, he lost his truck with provisions and gear, almost got killed few times, was ambushed few times, got guns pointed at him multiple times, got his gun taken from him few times, endangered people entrusted to him, got stabbed. I mean, I know that this world is dangerous, but that was beyond just bad luck. He is just stepping on all possible mines in the minefield.

@cswood said:

@bratface said:

@cswood said:

I decided a long time ago I'm not watching this show, I saw how they ruined the second game with politics and given Pedro's politics I pretty much knew what to expect with this show so I've already written it off.

Then I saw a clip from episode 6(?) where they blatantly praise communism. The ideology that has led to over 100 million deaths. I don't watch commie praising bullcrap. All this other stuff you guys are arguing about, it's just communism. They take over popular works and then ruin them to push anti-capitalism and pro-communism. Even Ant-Man 3 praises socialism. They associate themselves with black people, gays, women, immigrants etc as a shield against criticisms against their pushes for communism. That's all this is.

Socialism & communism ARE NOT THE SAME!

🙄

https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-communism-and-socialism-195448

Well you're right, socialists are actually fascists, but their methods are nearly identical. Chocolate cyanide ice cream and vanilla cyanide ice cream might taste different, but they're still both technically ice cream and eating either has the exact same result. Socialism is usually the step the precedes communism, but the end result is communism; destroying capitalism, disarming the people so they can't rise up, and putting the power and means of production in the hands of the government with the intent of everyone sharing everything and no more personal property. Communism doesn't work beyond the confines of a family unit and socialism only works if people don't rebel and just up and leave to go someplace where they're not being taxed to death.

If we lived in a socialist or communist society we would not even be able to have this conversation without the government putting us in jail or having our social credit scores tanked.

All western Europe countries a socialist, it means supporting the people with health care, social security, pensions, etc etc. Youve seen to many games...

@itaibachar said:

All western Europe countries a socialist, it means supporting the people with health care, social security, pensions, etc etc. Youve seen to many games...

What it means and what it results in are two different things. Socialist healthcare tends to be awful because there's no incentive to make it good when it's government guaranteed. Look at any government controlled institution like public schools, the DMV, etc. They're horrible and prone to corruption. Medicine and healthcare only improves when it's for profit. The vast majority or medical breakthroughs of the past century came out because there was profit in developing them.

Social security? That only works if you have young people paying into the system and old people not living too long. Right now our birth rates are so low there's no way there will be enough young people paying in within the next 20-30+ years and old people are living so long many are going back to work to supplement their income. And the government can very easily tank pensions through market manipulation, money printing and inflation. I know a lot of people point to Canada but they have a population of around $40 million, the US has a population of $333 million. It can sort of work with a low population, but at the cost of heavy taxes. And all it takes is for a loss of population paying in or government to screw it up.

The problem with socialism is government. If you look at history I don't think there has been a single government that hasn't mismanaged their people's money and politicians often vote to take more of our money with increased taxes and give it to themselves.

But if you want to go live in currently existing socialist utopia be my guest, I'm not stopping you. It's Hollywood I have a beef with, always promoting socialism/communism and decrying capitalism while demanding we pay them for it.

@cswood said:

The problem with socialism is government. If you look at history I don't think there has been a single government that hasn't mismanaged their people's money and politicians often vote to take more of our money with increased taxes and give it to themselves.

I kinda disagree. The government is just management, you need to have a good a decent managers to run the country and all the programs. And government in proper countries are elected people that are educated, trustworthy and thinking about all their citizens, not only about themselves. Countries like that have low corruption and the social programs are well thought through and adjusted, combined into the whole picture of how to manage the funds and taxes. There are few examples of such countries that will not expect the problems that you describe, because the government is the reflection of the people in the country that elect it. The US has dysfunctional government for decades, because half of the US are uneducated, naive, easily manipulated and prejudiced people that live in their own world of q-anon conspiracies and delusional fantasies. And they elect people like themselves, so it's no wonder US government on federal and on state levels is just bad management that cannot be trusted. But these people are good source of political power, so some elements that profit from their ignorance just see no reason to change anything.

If you live in US you know exactly the problems that exist there, but it's not a natural state that all government eventually fall down to. Country management is tough and demanding work, you need to have best people for it to be constantly dealing with wide range of problems. And some countries do it quite well and have various sorts of social programs. The main thing is the balance and rational measures. Capitalism and socialism can be combined together, there is no reason to reject anything. All political and financial ideologies have something useful, you just need smart people that know how to use it.

@D-magic said:

@cswood said:

The problem with socialism is government. If you look at history I don't think there has been a single government that hasn't mismanaged their people's money and politicians often vote to take more of our money with increased taxes and give it to themselves.

I kinda disagree. The government is just management, you need to have a good a decent managers to run the country and all the programs. And government in proper countries are elected people that are educated, trustworthy and thinking about all their citizens, not only about themselves. Countries like that have low corruption and the social programs are well thought through and adjusted, combined into the whole picture of how to manage the funds and taxes. There are few examples of such countries that will not expect the problems that you describe, because the government is the reflection of the people in the country that elect it. The US has dysfunctional government for decades, because half of the US are uneducated, naive, easily manipulated and prejudiced people that live in their own world of q-anon conspiracies and delusional fantasies. And they elect people like themselves, so it's no wonder US government on federal and on state levels is just bad management that cannot be trusted. But these people are good source of political power, so some elements that profit from their ignorance just see no reason to change anything.

If you live in US you know exactly the problems that exist there, but it's not a natural state that all government eventually fall down to. Country management is tough and demanding work, you need to have best people for it to be constantly dealing with wide range of problems. And some countries do it quite well and have various sorts of social programs. The main thing is the balance and rational measures. Capitalism and socialism can be combined together, there is no reason to reject anything. All political and financial ideologies have something useful, you just need smart people that know how to use it.

I agree. I am also a firm believer that it is possible to exploit greed for the greater good of the nation. Having a capitalistic system that is heavily regulated and controlled can be a useful tool to produce capital to pour into social programs. I just don't believe healthcare or education should strictly be left to the whims of the markets. These are commodities that should be provided to all and leaving it up to the highest bidder is immoral IMHO. Healthcare should be free at the point of a service to all but if you are rich enough to hire a Dr to bump you ahead of the line, so be it. Public college should be free but if you are rich enough to afford a fancy Ivy league school, again, so be it.

@movie_nazi said:

I agree. I am also a firm believer that it is possible to exploit greed for the greater good of the nation. Having a capitalistic system that is heavily regulated and controlled can be a useful tool to produce capital to pour into social programs. I just don't believe healthcare or education should strictly be left to the whims of the markets. These are commodities that should be provided to all and leaving it up to the highest bidder is immoral IMHO. Healthcare should be free at the point of a service to all but if you are rich enough to hire a Dr to bump you ahead of the line, so be it. Public college should be free but if you are rich enough to afford a fancy Ivy league school, again, so be it.

Personally? I'm not a big fan of either, but let's look at this realistically.

How many people actually take care of their body, exercise, brush/floss their teeth, watch what they eat, don't smoke or drink, and generally try to live as long as possible? Some, but not many. The moment everyone gets "free" socialized healthcare, that number skyrockets, because now they have no excuse to not take care of themselves. All the people who maybe were careful about their health because they couldn't afford to pay for it? They'll feel free to do whatever with the knowledge that they can go get "free" healthcare.

Think back to grade school. A small amount of kids got A's and B's, and equal amount probably got D's and F's, and most got C's. The moment the teacher decides everyone gets C's regardless of effort, everyone will eventually get F's because you removed the incentive for the students to improve and punished the hard working kids with a lower grade.

I'd love to live in a world where someone who needs a heart/organ transplant can get one instantly, but that doctor who can perform the procedure isn't working for free. None of us is owed their labor. If the US government took some of that Ukraine money and set it aside for healthcare that would be one thing, but even that wouldn't be sustainable forever. If technology advances where an AI robot can be programmed to do the surgery then maybe, but the development of that robot will only be developed with capitalist funds.

On a similar not I'm actually in favor of decriminalizing drugs because I believe people should be able to put whatever they want in their body, but we absolutely could not have socialist healthcare if that were the case. The people who take care of themselves should not be forced to pay for the people who throw their health away. It's the equivalent of someone else pooping their pants and you having to wash those pants.