As much more often than not I comment on threads for pre-1950s films, I must state, regarding this one, that it's an oldie I don't recall ever watching.

@genplant29 said:

As much more often than not I comment on threads for pre-1950s films, I must state, regarding this one, that it's an oldie I don't recall ever watching.

It's a really good film, and Cocteau had a great cinematic eye for sure. Some of his camera tricks in this & in Orpheus (1950) are simple yet timeless. I hope there's a harmless explanation for the dog, like maybe a village taxidermist had someone's recently departed pet to loan that day. But I think that's sort of a stretch...

@genplant29 said:

As much more often than not I comment on threads for pre-1950s films, I must state, regarding this one, that it's an oldie I don't recall ever watching.

Watch it if you ever get the chance! This is the way the story should be told NOT the disneyfied versions.

@rooprect said:

Early in the film there's a quick scene outside the Beast's castle where we see the body of a dead "deer". In the Criterion commentary they tell the anecdote behind that. Director Jean Cocteau wanted to show a deer carcass, but in the village where it was filmed they couldn't find a butcher who had one. They ended up using a dog instead.

My question is: who tf has a dead dog handy? And my mind starts assuming, since this was made in the days before animal cruelty laws, did Cocteau just find a random stray dog and kill it for this barely 1 sec scene? I've researched it online and found 1 or 2 articles mentioning the anecdote, but they all stop short of explaining where the dog came from.

Curious. Do you have the link to those articles?

@wonder2wonder said:

@rooprect said:

Early in the film there's a quick scene outside the Beast's castle where we see the body of a dead "deer". In the Criterion commentary they tell the anecdote behind that. Director Jean Cocteau wanted to show a deer carcass, but in the village where it was filmed they couldn't find a butcher who had one. They ended up using a dog instead.

My question is: who tf has a dead dog handy? And my mind starts assuming, since this was made in the days before animal cruelty laws, did Cocteau just find a random stray dog and kill it for this barely 1 sec scene? I've researched it online and found 1 or 2 articles mentioning the anecdote, but they all stop short of explaining where the dog came from.

Curious. Do you have the link to those articles?

Not much additional info here but this is from the Criterion site:

"Just when the carcass of a deer was needed, the Paris wholesale game markets went on strike."

and if you google that sentence it leads to a couple articles (classicartfilms, gwarlingo) citing the Criterion blurb but none of them dig any deeper or mention the dog. For that you have to listen to the Criterion commentary, but he stops short of saying where the dog came from.

@rooprect said:

@wonder2wonder said:

@rooprect said:

Early in the film there's a quick scene outside the Beast's castle where we see the body of a dead "deer". In the Criterion commentary they tell the anecdote behind that. Director Jean Cocteau wanted to show a deer carcass, but in the village where it was filmed they couldn't find a butcher who had one. They ended up using a dog instead.

My question is: who tf has a dead dog handy? And my mind starts assuming, since this was made in the days before animal cruelty laws, did Cocteau just find a random stray dog and kill it for this barely 1 sec scene? I've researched it online and found 1 or 2 articles mentioning the anecdote, but they all stop short of explaining where the dog came from.

Curious. Do you have the link to those articles?

Not much additional info here but this is from the Criterion site:

"Just when the carcass of a deer was needed, the Paris wholesale game markets went on strike."

and if you google that sentence it leads to a couple articles (classicartfilms, gwarlingo) citing the Criterion blurb but none of them dig any deeper or mention the dog. For that you have to listen to the Criterion commentary, but he stops short of saying where the dog came from.

Yes, I found those too, and as you said, none mentioned the dog. I don't have the Criterion version, so I can't hear it. With only Criterion as source, could they have mixed it up with the fact that Jean Marais's dog Moulouk was used as model for the Beast's head instead of that of a deer?

On the other hand they started filming in 1945, just after WWII, and there was famine and diseases in many places with dead animals on the streets, so finding one wouldn't be too difficult.

@wonder2wonder said:

@rooprect said:

@wonder2wonder said:

@rooprect said:

Early in the film there's a quick scene outside the Beast's castle where we see the body of a dead "deer". In the Criterion commentary they tell the anecdote behind that. Director Jean Cocteau wanted to show a deer carcass, but in the village where it was filmed they couldn't find a butcher who had one. They ended up using a dog instead.

My question is: who tf has a dead dog handy? And my mind starts assuming, since this was made in the days before animal cruelty laws, did Cocteau just find a random stray dog and kill it for this barely 1 sec scene? I've researched it online and found 1 or 2 articles mentioning the anecdote, but they all stop short of explaining where the dog came from.

Curious. Do you have the link to those articles?

Not much additional info here but this is from the Criterion site:

"Just when the carcass of a deer was needed, the Paris wholesale game markets went on strike."

and if you google that sentence it leads to a couple articles (classicartfilms, gwarlingo) citing the Criterion blurb but none of them dig any deeper or mention the dog. For that you have to listen to the Criterion commentary, but he stops short of saying where the dog came from.

Yes, I found those too, and as you said, none mentioned the dog. I don't have the Criterion version, so I can't hear it. With only Criterion as source, could they have mixed it up with the fact that Jean Marais's dog Moulouk was used as model for the Beast's head instead of that of a deer?

On the other hand they started filming in 1945, just after WWII, and there was famine and diseases in many places with dead animals on the streets, so finding one wouldn't be too difficult.

I still have the DVD in my player so I grabbed a quick audio of the commentary. He seems pretty clear about the shot so I doubt he got the facts mixed up (the commentary is by Arthur Knight). Deer/dog scene commentary

"Because meat was less than abundant, a simple closeup of a deer's carcass created unexpected problems. Local butchers couldn't supply one, nor was a late night visit that Cocteau made to the Escale, at that time the famed central produce market of Paris, any more successful. The solution: this hasty shot of a dead dog made up to resemble a deer."

But I think you have a good point with the postwar famine likely leading to lots of dead animals in the streets. Maybe on his way back from the market he spotted one and that gave him the idea.

I think in general the French are dog lovers (case in point, Jean Marais and the Beast mask being an homage to his dog), so I'm veering away from the worst assumption that they killed a dog just for the scene. Course if we were talking about Tarkovsky, he wouldn't think twice about killing a dog (or his own grandmother) for the sake of a shot -_-

@rooprect said:

@wonder2wonder said:

@rooprect said:

@wonder2wonder said:

@rooprect said:

Early in the film there's a quick scene outside the Beast's castle where we see the body of a dead "deer". In the Criterion commentary they tell the anecdote behind that. Director Jean Cocteau wanted to show a deer carcass, but in the village where it was filmed they couldn't find a butcher who had one. They ended up using a dog instead.

My question is: who tf has a dead dog handy? And my mind starts assuming, since this was made in the days before animal cruelty laws, did Cocteau just find a random stray dog and kill it for this barely 1 sec scene? I've researched it online and found 1 or 2 articles mentioning the anecdote, but they all stop short of explaining where the dog came from.

Curious. Do you have the link to those articles?

Not much additional info here but this is from the Criterion site:

"Just when the carcass of a deer was needed, the Paris wholesale game markets went on strike."

and if you google that sentence it leads to a couple articles (classicartfilms, gwarlingo) citing the Criterion blurb but none of them dig any deeper or mention the dog. For that you have to listen to the Criterion commentary, but he stops short of saying where the dog came from.

Yes, I found those too, and as you said, none mentioned the dog. I don't have the Criterion version, so I can't hear it. With only Criterion as source, could they have mixed it up with the fact that Jean Marais's dog Moulouk was used as model for the Beast's head instead of that of a deer?

On the other hand they started filming in 1945, just after WWII, and there was famine and diseases in many places with dead animals on the streets, so finding one wouldn't be too difficult.

I still have the DVD in my player so I grabbed a quick audio of the commentary. He seems pretty clear about the shot so I doubt he got the facts mixed up (the commentary is by Arthur Knight). Deer/dog scene commentary

"Because meat was less than abundant, a simple closeup of a deer's carcass created unexpected problems. Local butchers couldn't supply one, nor was a late night visit that Cocteau made to the Escale, at that time the famed central produce market of Paris, any more successful. The solution: this hasty shot of a dead dog made up to resemble a deer."

But I think you have a good point with the postwar famine likely leading to lots of dead animals in the streets. Maybe on his way back from the market he spotted one and that gave him the idea.

I think in general the French are dog lovers (case in point, Jean Marais and the Beast mask being an homage to his dog), so I'm veering away from the worst assumption that they killed a dog just for the scene. Course if we were talking about Tarkovsky, he wouldn't think twice about killing a dog (or his own grandmother) for the sake of a shot -_-

Thanks for the recording. Interesting tidbit of information from Arthur Knight.

¡MYSTERY SOLVED!

I found a pdf of Jean Cocteau's diary during filming (itself an interesting read for film buffs) Diary of a Film by Jean Cocteau

Page 72

" Thursday evening, 11 o'clock.

My head's about bursting after the most killing day. Beginning with a hunt through the market for the missing dead deer. Can't find it anywhere. Then to Epinay. Where the current goes off. We hang about. Drizzle. Then eventually Darbon turns up, bringing me some dead dogs, which stink so horribly I can't use them. I beg Clement to take them back to the knackers and have them skinned. The current's still off. Lunch."

'Darbon' must be referring to Émile Darbon, production manager. 'Clement' must be referring to René Clément assistant director. And a 'knacker' is defined as "a person whose business is the disposal of dead or unwanted animals"

So it looks like while Cocteau was scouring the markets, the production manager was visiting the dead animal disposal services, collecting whatever carcasses he could find.

No dogs were harmed 😅 although the story is kinda gross as hell.

Added bonus, Cocteau was in fact a dog lover. Here's an interesting quote I found in his book "The Difficulty of Being"

"What is one to do against this fear of emptiness? It dries me up. One must forget it. I practise doing so. I go to the point of reading children’s books. I avoid any contact which might make me aware of the passing of time. I vegetate. I talk to dogs."

@rooprect said:

¡MYSTERY SOLVED!

I found a pdf of Jean Cocteau's diary during filming (itself an interesting read for film buffs) Diary of a Film by Jean Cocteau

Page 72

" Thursday evening, 11 o'clock.

My head's about bursting after the most killing day. Beginning with a hunt through the market for the missing dead deer. Can't find it anywhere. Then to Epinay. Where the current goes off. We hang about. Drizzle. Then eventually Darbon turns up, bringing me some dead dogs, which stink so horribly I can't use them. I beg Clement to take them back to the knackers and have them skinned. The current's still off. Lunch."

'Darbon' must be referring to Émile Darbon, production manager. 'Clement' must be referring to René Clément assistant director. And a 'knacker' is defined as "a person whose business is the disposal of dead or unwanted animals"

So it looks like while Cocteau was scouring the markets, the production manager was visiting the dead animal disposal services, collecting whatever carcasses he could find.

No dogs were harmed 😅 although the story is kinda gross as hell.

Bien joué!

I continued reading and it seems like he did find a deer to use?

Current comes on again. The rose scene's at last ready. Clement comes back and is sick after what he's seen at the knackers. Then somebody tells me that the dead deer has at last arrived. So I decide to do the door scene instead.

Still struggling. Not a cloud in the sky this morning when I reached Epinay and everybody looked as though it was going on all right. The ventilator is fixed up. Just started to shoot the rose scene. Four shots, including the one of the dead deer. I opened its throat myself and poured the haemoglobin down.

@wonder2wonder said:

@rooprect said:

¡MYSTERY SOLVED!

I found a pdf of Jean Cocteau's diary during filming (itself an interesting read for film buffs) Diary of a Film by Jean Cocteau

Page 72

" Thursday evening, 11 o'clock.

My head's about bursting after the most killing day. Beginning with a hunt through the market for the missing dead deer. Can't find it anywhere. Then to Epinay. Where the current goes off. We hang about. Drizzle. Then eventually Darbon turns up, bringing me some dead dogs, which stink so horribly I can't use them. I beg Clement to take them back to the knackers and have them skinned. The current's still off. Lunch."

'Darbon' must be referring to Émile Darbon, production manager. 'Clement' must be referring to René Clément assistant director. And a 'knacker' is defined as "a person whose business is the disposal of dead or unwanted animals"

So it looks like while Cocteau was scouring the markets, the production manager was visiting the dead animal disposal services, collecting whatever carcasses he could find.

No dogs were harmed 😅 although the story is kinda gross as hell.

Bien joué!

I continued reading and it seems like he did find a deer to use?

Current comes on again. The rose scene's at last ready. Clement comes back and is sick after what he's seen at the knackers. Then somebody tells me that the dead deer has at last arrived. So I decide to do the door scene instead.

Still struggling. Not a cloud in the sky this morning when I reached Epinay and everybody looked as though it was going on all right. The ventilator is fixed up. Just started to shoot the rose scene. Four shots, including the one of the dead deer. I opened its throat myself and poured the haemoglobin down.

ah Nice find, the plot thickens! So it would seem that the whole story is a misunderstanding. You were right in your first suggestion that Criterion got it wrong.

I watched the scene again and it really does look like a real deer. If it were a dog, it would have to be a specific thin breed, like a tall greyhound, to even come close. And from the sound of it, the knackers didn’t have much to choose from. The carcass hadn’t been skinned either, it’s fully intact except for the neck wound Cocteau mentions.

So we have it straight from Cocteau himself, the verdict is deer. Arthur Knight goofed! 😬

Wow, that's a strange and unsettling anecdote about the film! It's hard to imagine where they got a dog for that scene. Reminds me of how sometimes we stumble upon bizarre mysteries, much like the questions surrounding the Trails Wilderness Program incident. Some things just leave you wondering.