Nice review, another reason for me to see this movie!

Although I haven’t been keeping track of Scorsese’s work, I know he’s one of the few directors who’s in it for more than making a buck. He’s very active in the preservation & restoration of old films, so it makes sense that his films would focus on retelling history.

There’s been too much history revisionism is movies lately (which we’ve both griped about), so it’s great to see a well known filmmaker who’s trying to teach history rather than fictionalize it.

I’ve heard some grumbles that this movie is too long, but I’m actually a fan of 3+ hour movies that don’t rush things, if they have something to say.

@rooprect said:

Nice review, another reason for me to see this movie!

It hasn't made a lot of money, so it's not likely to last much longer in theatres - dash out if you can, I'd love your take on it.

Although I haven’t been keeping track of Scorsese’s work, I know he’s one of the few directors who’s in it for more than making a buck. He’s very active in the preservation & restoration of old films, so it makes sense that his films would focus on retelling history.

There’s been too much history revisionism is movies lately (which we’ve both griped about),

Yep!

so it’s great to see a well known filmmaker who’s trying to teach history rather than fictionalize it.

Yep!

I’ve heard some grumbles that this movie is too long, but I’m actually a fan of 3+ hour movies that don’t rush things, if they have something to say.

I think the grumbles about length are disingenuous cop outs to avoid and distract from the tension of the story. This is an expose of yet another ugly chapter in the white supremacist history of America, and the focus on the strategy, the play, remains steady, uncomfortably so. There's a great line in which one of the elders says "we used to be able to see the enemy. And, when we saw them, we killed them. Now, they're among us. We're on the white man system, what has it gotten us?" (or words to that effect, I paraphrased best I could recall). The mention of Tulsa was interesting. The movie says "this is just like Tulsa", but it wasn't, and thinking through the differences is a wortwhile exercise, especially as it makes clear what really was going on here.

My daughter said "it'd didn't feel long", because she's got an attention span, and empathy, and an upright, humanely-calibrated moral compass.

Scorsese stuck to the tension with ironclad tenacity, there's no ambiguity, no obfuscation of right vs. wrong, no way to spin this ugly moment in time with rhetoric, so the tactic seems to be to just dismiss it as "too long, boring" and other such drivel.

And, the ending is, in my opinion, brilliant. Again, see it (!) so we can discuss :-)

You know, I think you’re right about the real reason why some people didn’t like it and gave the excuse “too long.”

Don’t forget De Niro’s no-holds-barred speech at the Gotham Awards (which they tried to censor by editing the teleprompter, but good ole Bobby De had a copy on his smartphone which he happily read), scorching those white supremacists and their nefarious leader 😅

So maybe we have another Barbie situation where a certain demographic decides to hate it without having the guts to say exactly why.

I would love to catch this in the theater, but theaters around here suck so I’ve gotten in the habit of buying blu-rays and watching everything at home (better popcorn!). These days they release films on home media almost at the same time, so maybe it’s already on sale… Definitely sounds like the kind of movie I’d want to own.

Scorsese's sometimes screenwriter and collaborator Paul Schrader apparently hated and dissed the film, saying that Leonardo DiCaprio's character gives the viewer about 3-and-a-half hours in the presence of an "idiot" LOL! And I didn't give it a lot of thought until seeing an article, but this aspect did make the movie hard to deal with, for me.

Perhaps there's some allegorical quality to the Ernest character that Scorsese intended. I dunno.

For those who are interested, if the film isn't in theatres anymore, it should be available on DVD and other formats right around Jan. 15, 2024.

@rooprect said:

You know, I think you’re right about the real reason why some people didn’t like it and gave the excuse “too long.”

Don’t forget De Niro’s no-holds-barred speech at the Gotham Awards (which they tried to censor by editing the teleprompter, but good ole Bobby De had a copy on his smartphone which he happily read), scorching those white supremacists and their nefarious leader 😅

Makes sense!

So maybe we have another Barbie situation where a certain demographic decides to hate it without having the guts to say exactly why.

Yep, that's how it appears to me, too.

@Rocky_Sullivan said:

Scorsese's sometimes screenwriter and collaborator Paul Schrader apparently hated and dissed the film, saying that Leonardo DiCaprio's character gives the viewer about 3-and-a-half hours in the presence of an "idiot" LOL! And I didn't give it a lot of thought until seeing an article, but this aspect did make the movie hard to deal with, for me.

This is interesting on several levels.

If the real person Ernest Burkhart was an idiot, there's no other way to play him if the effort of the movie maker is to be true to the source material. DiCaprio's portrayal of him challenges us to look into the real story and decide whether or to what degree DiCaprio nailed it. To just dismiss this part of the exercise is...convenient, to me.

Ernest being an idiot can be argued as a convenient distraction, because, regardless whether he did what he did out of malice or just being an imbecile, a grown man is still responsible for his actions. The guy killed people, executed plans to kill people, and attempted to kill people. That's on him.

Ernest being an idiot has no bearing on King Hale's accountability for his murderous scheme. Hale was Hale, and he was (finally) held accountable for his evil.

It's also curious to me that people who seem to not like this movie hardly ever express empathy for, nor even acknowledge, the plight of the Osage people. Which is, unfortunately, par for the course when it comes to revisiting ugly episodes in the history of a racist America.

Perhaps there's some allegorical quality to the Ernest character that Scorsese intended. I dunno.

I think there is, I think Ernest was, in historical reality, a great example of being ignorant/clueless, incapable of introspection that might have better calibrated some kind of moral compass. A quote attributed to Socrates is applicable: "the unexamined life is not worth living." Ernest did not put much work into thinking through right vs. wrong. Some may almost want him to be "stupid" so as to mitigate how much we can hold him accountable for his actions.

I explored this angle much more in my synopsis of what Forrest Gump really was all about. While it made sense to some, it was also quite challenging to others, of course. However, the main takeaway here, in comparison, is that Forrest was a sterling example of a clueless guy who rose above and did the right thing, whereas Ernest was, sadly, ultimately unable to do so.

Again, I have no material basis supporting any assertion that Scorsese made this allegorical connection deliberately with Forrest Gump in mind; I'd suggest, rather, that Ernest was a true tragic human being, and Forrest Gump was a fantasy exploration of "what if" someone did rise above.

For those who are interested, if the film isn't in theatres anymore, it should be available on DVD and other formats right around Jan. 15, 2024.

I think it'd be an excellent addition to any collection!

@DRDMovieMusings said: If the real person Ernest Burkhart was an idiot, there's no other way to play him if the effort of the movie maker is to be true to the source material. DiCaprio's portrayal of him challenges us to look into the real story and decide whether or to what degree DiCaprio nailed it. To just dismiss this part of the exercise is...convenient, to me.

Sure, sure. I had felt Schrader might've been in a certain "script reader" paradigm when he commented, where it just kinda... sucks to have to read other people's work, maybe? Hence, Schrader's terse summation of the work by Scorsese which he seemed to have hated. Then again, I kind of forgot if he was reacting to a script reading or a film screening. I think it was the latter.

It's also curious to me that people who seem to not like this movie hardly ever express empathy for, nor even acknowledge, the plight of the Osage people. Which is, unfortunately, par for the course when it comes to revisiting ugly episodes in the history of a racist America.

I haven't overtly said anything about their situation, but then again, I kinda dug KoFM. It's hard for me to say what I feel those detractors should say and/or do.

For those who are interested, if the film isn't in theatres anymore, it should be available on DVD and other formats right around Jan. 15, 2024.

I think it'd be an excellent addition to any collection!

I should rewatch it before I turn in my opinion.

@Rocky_Sullivan said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:.

It's also curious to me that people who seem to not like this movie hardly ever express empathy for, nor even acknowledge, the plight of the Osage people. Which is, unfortunately, par for the course when it comes to revisiting ugly episodes in the history of a racist America.

I haven't overtly said anything about their situation, but then again, I kinda dug KoFM. It's hard for me to say what I feel those detractors should say and/or do.

I was in no way pointing at you here, nor would I presume to burden you with speaking for Shrader or any who have been critical of this movie.

I was unequivocally asserting that anyone who allowed DiCaprio's portrayal of a real, despicable person to distract from having an emotion about the people he made a business out of killing is likely uncomfortable with the focus Scorsese rightly aimed at how despicable they were and that is part of the conversation this movie was designed to generate.

Cheers, mate!

DRD: No worries, and no presumptions were made.

I figure that the subject matter of the Osage being murdered in the film has served as a "dividing line" for different audiences to cast their votes, in a way. I can see Scorsese had strong feelings about the topic when I watch the film -- as do you.

Cheers, and HNY!

The movie’s back in cinemas.

Now, I’m reading that the film’s 4K Blu-ray date is April 10. I swear, this shit be political.