@Daddie0 said:

I just watched this film again after many years and was surprised how well it has held up. There is a moral ethic at work in D-Fens' decisions. What do you think of D-Fens' ethics? Are they good? Bad? Why? Which of his decisions did you find offensive? Just curious how others see it.

He's off his rocker, obviously, but he does make some good points. Times have changed. He's just standing up for his rights as a consumer, and demanding more fairness and consideration from people in society. Society has been unfair to him, and he just wants to get a little of the power back he lost and thinks he deserves. He raises some good points.

On the other hand, I think he's carried away with his ex wife. Being a stalker and seemingly being abusive toward her was black and white, wrong.

@Heisenberg12 said: He's off his rocker, obviously, but he does make some good points. Times have changed. He's just standing up for his rights as a consumer, and demanding more fairness and consideration from people in society. Society has been unfair to him, and he just wants to get a little of the power back he lost and thinks he deserves. He raises some good points.

On the other hand, I think he's carried away with his ex wife. Being a stalker and seemingly being abusive toward her was black and white, wrong.

Yeah, I agree about his ex-wife. They play some interesting angle though (for instance when the police officer is taking her first statement and asks several questions). Of course later we find video evidence that he is overly demanding...borderline abusive with his wife and child and perhaps psychotic.

As to his ethic with others, we see him differentiate himself many times based on his own view of "what is right." My theory is he has been repressing his own opinions on these matters and today is the day he is letting it all out.

@Daddie0 said:

@Heisenberg12 said: He's off his rocker, obviously, but he does make some good points. Times have changed. He's just standing up for his rights as a consumer, and demanding more fairness and consideration from people in society. Society has been unfair to him, and he just wants to get a little of the power back he lost and thinks he deserves. He raises some good points.

On the other hand, I think he's carried away with his ex wife. Being a stalker and seemingly being abusive toward her was black and white, wrong.

Yeah, I agree about his ex-wife. They play some interesting angle though (for instance when the police officer is taking her first statement and asks several questions). Of course later we find video evidence that he is overly demanding...borderline abusive with his wife and child and perhaps psychotic.

As to his ethic with others, we see him differentiate himself many times based on his own view of "what is right." My theory is he has been repressing his own opinions on these matters and today is the day he is letting it all out.

Cool. And in doing so, he is speaking for a lot of others who have repressed their own similar views...Traffic (especially in LA), has become ridiculous- trips that used to take 10 minutes take an hour due to jams, store clerks jack up prices on soft drinks- appreciation and markups, government works on roads using tax payer money and there's nothing really wrong with them, divorced fathers often get screwed by the courts and are hyper-biased toward women in cases, immigrants can't speak English and create violent gangs and vandalize, restaurants false advertise their food and clerks are too stingy with following rules- 1 minute over they should still have breakfast leftover for the customer...

And yes, others misunderstand him. Like the guy in the army store. "Were the same, man. You and me? We're the same!"..."WE ..ARE NOT..the same. I'm an American. And you're a sick as hole".. He's trying to fix things wrong with society, but others are what's wrong (at least according to him).

@Heisenberg12 said:

And yes, others misunderstand him. Like the guy in the army store. "Were the same, man. You and me? We're the same!"..."WE ..ARE NOT..the same. I'm an American. And you're a sick as hole".. He's trying to fix things wrong with society, but others are what's wrong (at least according to him).

That was one of my favorite quotes from the movie (and the whole "Whammyburger"/false advertising scene). This also points out the flaw with so many "frustration" movements...we're all different even as we often face the same struggles. For D-Fens, no one can articulate his struggles accurately...only he can. :)

ultimately he feels betrayed by society... that it isn't what he thought it was... instead of trying to adapt, he tries to make society conform to his will, or to his understanding of what it was supposed to be... that's a losing battle...

while we should have empathy for him and recognise the humanity in his situation, we also have to realise that he could have taken a different route in dealing with his problems and his trouble in relating to society...

@Renovatio said:

ultimately he feels betrayed by society... that it isn't what he thought it was... instead of trying to adapt, he tries to make society conform to his will, or to his understanding of what it was supposed to be... that's a losing battle...

while we should have empathy for him and recognise the humanity in his situation, we also have to realise that he could have taken a different route in dealing with his problems and his trouble in relating to society...

I'm not so sure that he expects others to conform to his will as he stops conforming to theirs. Perhaps two sides of the same coin, but to think he expected compliance might go to far. I don't believe he was thinking at all, almost just reacting like something had broken loose inside.

As far as an overall moral ethic, I am not sure this film serves that role so much as a cautionary tale to others who might identify with his character, and perhaps more importantly, to express the oppression and conformity that so many learn to tolerate each day. Sometimes films end up being about expressing something unexpressed in society, and I remember when first seeing it I felt what he was feeling no matter how broken it was being expressed. As I have aged I have a deeper empathy for all the characters represented. It's an interesting film!

@Daddie0 said:

I just watched this film again after many years and was surprised how well it has held up. There is a moral ethic at work in D-Fens' decisions. What do you think of D-Fens' ethics? Are they good? Bad? Why? Which of his decisions did you find offensive? Just curious how others see it.

Rewatched as well, I remember it better and I was skipping Predngergast family and wife parts which I find boring. What I have found shocking it's how similar he is to what I am becoming, in past he was just the cool guy standing up, nowadays I am a bit horrified becoming him.

But to answer your question, as others said he has some good points/observations most of us can agree but in the end he is just selfish dude. For instance Korean shop - he need change, Korean owner could be more welcoming and just give him change but refusing set price to get change it's ridiculous, just buy something cheaper (though they should really not have discussion about this as there should be price tags).

I think I can agree with his ethics in other situations - as for fast food, nowadays they use computers for everything and by my experience computer won't allow them process the breakfast order during lunch menu, but I guess at that time it was up to them, but nowadays it would not be really their fault, I mean there could be some workaround but hey if the system it's set in particular way they are small fishes to change something upper management at HQ decided if they don't wanna lose their jobs.

Road construction - agreed, although he is again complaining at wrong place, those workers are not deciding what will be closed, they just follow orders and won't let people there to avoid lawsuits in case someone will get hurt and not because they have nothing better to do.

So if you really thnk about his complaints you can find cracks almost everywhere.

@Markoff said:

I think I can agree with his ethics in other situations - as for fast food, nowadays they use computers for everything and by my experience computer won't allow them process the breakfast order during lunch menu, but I guess at that time it was up to them, but nowadays it would not be really their fault, I mean there could be some workaround but hey if the system it's set in particular way they are small fishes to change something upper management at HQ decided if they don't wanna lose their jobs.

It seems this example kinda makes the point. It's not about the computers or the "rules" it's about our ability to accommodate one another. Saying "The system won't allow that" is a cop out, as the truth is all the resources are there to meet the request. This kind of reliance on system is in many ways inhumane, even as it allows to to function in a social way (albeit very transactionally). The irony of his "Falling Down" is that it seems he has been quite happy for such systems until they stopped working for him, a.k.a. he lost control of others. Interesting thoughts!