@sunshine62 said:

By mecha:

I'm sympathetic to those who found The Craig Bond to be the most joyless and glum of them all, and I even agree that Babs Broccoli and the gang went overboard when it came to exploring his past and trying to give him a depth that's never been present in the character from the get go.

For me that was the best part.. the personal drama , turmoil . He was flawed and you felt his pain. Dark and gritty are engaging.

So you are only interested in the action packed scenes and the sexy gals.

He moved on from Vesper and fucked plenty of women since her so please stop going on about his pain please.

@mechajutaro said:

@Midi-chlorian_Count said:

Daniel Craig was way shorter than the other actors who legitimately played Bond. Plus you have his more ugly Sid James-a-like features and beefy man titted physique to consider.

In short he literally did not look like a spy or someone with the sophisticated grace to effortlessly move within the casino / jet set crowds where he sought information. He would stand out like a sore thumb.

Not particularly realistic compared with any of the other Bonds.

He definitely was the most unconventionally handsome of all the Bonds thus far. As I believe DRDMusings has already pointed out, The Craig Bond was more akin to the brooding action heroes that populated so many other action moves. To that end, his physique and demeanor matched up with the direction the character took between '06-'22. He's not supposed to be someone who can effortlessly move within high society, so much as he is MI6's premiere killing machine. We can have an entirely separate conversation as to whether or not rebooting Bond in such a way was a canny move, on the part of Eon

I'm sympathetic to those who found The Craig Bond to be the most joyless and glum of them all, and I even agree that Babs Broccoli and the gang went overboard when it came to exploring his past and trying to give him a depth that's never been present in the character from the get go. That said, whether or not the franchise would've survived an immediately post-9/11 world WITHOUT things going darker and grittier is highly questionable. Pierce Brosnan's interpretation looked even more out of place in Die Another Day than did Moore's in A View To A Kill

Not adapting to the cultural temperaments of the time would've ensured that what the first scene in XXX prognosticated at the time(007 being relegated to the pages of history, as brawnier and rawer heroes took center stage)would've come to pass. Who knows though.... The next era of Bond may herald a return to the more light hearted days of Brosnan and Moore. With Western international policy being in the crapper at the moment, zany escapism may be therapeutic

Brosnan could absolutely do brawnier and rawer if he wanted to and did that in Die Another Day regardless of what you think of the film. Daniel Craig's problem isn't his physicality or being too strong it's his fans.

@mechajutaro said:

@Adammm said:

@sunshine62 said:

By mecha:

I'm sympathetic to those who found The Craig Bond to be the most joyless and glum of them all, and I even agree that Babs Broccoli and the gang went overboard when it came to exploring his past and trying to give him a depth that's never been present in the character from the get go.

For me that was the best part.. the personal drama , turmoil . He was flawed and you felt his pain. Dark and gritty are engaging.

So you are only interested in the action packed scenes and the sexy gals.

He moved on from Vesper and fucked plenty of women since her so please stop going on about his pain please.

If so, most of that f-cking took place off camera. Post Casino Royale, he beds exactly four women that we see

Haha like that isn't a lot already. Especially for such a pained man.

sunshine62:

For me that was the best part.. the personal drama , turmoil . He was flawed and you felt his pain. Dark and gritty are engaging.

So you are only interested in the action packed scenes and the sexy gals.?

mecha:

Only, no.... Both are two of The Bond franchises primary draws though. As masterful as "Skyfall" was, The Craig Era went light on the latter(sexy gals)and far more emo than any other segment of the franchise

I found this very interesting article , it analysis Daniel Craig’s Bond .. all the emotions that were brooding… the inner drama etc.

https://epiloguers.com/daniel-craig-james-bond-analysis/

@mechajutaro said:

@Midi-chlorian_Count said:

Daniel Craig was way shorter than the other actors who legitimately played Bond. Plus you have his more ugly Sid James-a-like features and beefy man titted physique to consider.

In short he literally did not look like a spy or someone with the sophisticated grace to effortlessly move within the casino / jet set crowds where he sought information. He would stand out like a sore thumb.

Not particularly realistic compared with any of the other Bonds.

He definitely was the most unconventionally handsome of all the Bonds thus far. As I believe DRDMusings has already pointed out, The Craig Bond was more akin to the brooding action heroes that populated so many other action moves. To that end, his physique and demeanor matched up with the direction the character took between '06-'22. He's not supposed to be someone who can effortlessly move within high society, so much as he is MI6's premiere killing machine. We can have an entirely separate conversation as to whether or not rebooting Bond in such a way was a canny move, on the part of Eon

I'm sympathetic to those who found The Craig Bond to be the most joyless and glum of them all, and I even agree that Babs Broccoli and the gang went overboard when it came to exploring his past and trying to give him a depth that's never been present in the character from the get go. That said, whether or not the franchise would've survived an immediately post-9/11 world WITHOUT things going darker and grittier is highly questionable. Pierce Brosnan's interpretation looked even more out of place in Die Another Day than did Moore's in A View To A Kill

Not adapting to the cultural temperaments of the time would've ensured that what the first scene in XXX prognosticated at the time(007 being relegated to the pages of history, as brawnier and rawer heroes took center stage)would've come to pass. Who knows though.... The next era of Bond may herald a return to the more light hearted days of Brosnan and Moore. With Western international policy being in the crapper at the moment, zany escapism may be therapeutic

Sorry, this is a bit weird but I've just discovered I seem to have had you blocked! Not sure how that happened as I don't particularly block many people and I'm sure we've discussed stuff in the past without any daftness (?) so I'm guessing I must have screwed up when hitting reply or something 🤷

Anyway, with regards to:-

He's not supposed to be someone who can effortlessly move within high society, so much as he is MI6's premiere killing machine.

Not necessarily high society I guess but if he can't move about inconspicuously he can't really be considered much of a spy I guess - more like you said just a killing machine / enforcer...

@Midi-chlorian_Count said:

@mechajutaro said: He's not supposed to be someone who can effortlessly move within high society, so much as he is MI6's premiere killing machine.

Not necessarily high society I guess but if he can't move about inconspicuously he can't really be considered much of a spy I guess - more like you said just a killing machine / enforcer...

He is a real bloodhound. Eat your hearth out, anyone? No one can outrun him and escape his wrath.

@mechajutaro said:

@wonder2wonder said:

@Midi-chlorian_Count said:

@mechajutaro said: He's not supposed to be someone who can effortlessly move within high society, so much as he is MI6's premiere killing machine.

Not necessarily high society I guess but if he can't move about inconspicuously he can't really be considered much of a spy I guess - more like you said just a killing machine / enforcer...

He is a real bloodhound. Eat your hearth out, anyone? No one can outrun him and escape his wrath.

Today, that final second clip would be deemed problematic on account of the pursuer being a blond white guy, and the pursued a black African man. For once, i'm in semi-agreement with The Woke Warriors. This depiction kind of lines up with racist European stereotypes about black people possessing animalistic physical traits, whereas our pasty colored hero seems to defeat him via superior cleverness

It's tough to brush all of this off as unintentional on the part of the filmmakers

🙄

@mechajutaro said:

@wonder2wonder said:

@Midi-chlorian_Count said:

@mechajutaro said: He's not supposed to be someone who can effortlessly move within high society, so much as he is MI6's premiere killing machine.

Not necessarily high society I guess but if he can't move about inconspicuously he can't really be considered much of a spy I guess - more like you said just a killing machine / enforcer...

He is a real bloodhound. Eat your hearth out, anyone? No one can outrun him and escape his wrath.

Today, that final second clip would be deemed problematic on account of the pursuer being a blond white guy, and the pursued a black African man. For once, i'm in semi-agreement with The Woke Warriors.

Kudos! But, Mech, why be semi? Don't just call here, you've got to go all in!

At any rate, if this is a first, let's look forward to it not being the last.

This depiction kind of lines up with racist European stereotypes about black people possessing animalistic physical traits, whereas our pasty colored hero seems to defeat him via superior cleverness

Make it plain for those in the back!

It's tough to brush all of this off as unintentional on the part of the filmmakers

And, if anyone is wont to try, it's Mech. So, there you have it!

@mechajutaro said:

Kudos! But, Mech, why be semi? Don't just call here, you've got to go all in!

Semi, in that Woke Warriors will interpret such a scene as evidence that White Supremacy is all around us, that no progress has been made since The 1960s, and that we need to have psychological revolution which purges our species of all prejudice. Never having met Martin Campbell and the screenwriters,

Although I am of the opinion that white supremacy is all around us, I would never make the assertion that a scene like this "is" evidence to that. But here's the thing - calling out racism, whenever it does rear its ugly head, should not be twisted into the strawman of "everything is racism." Saying "this" is racism does not automatically equate to "everything" is racism. So, we CAN agree that "everything" is NOT racism...and deal with instances as they are, without inflating it into something it's not.

I won't start equating them to Klansmen just yet,

Yeah, but please do not take that line that only Klansmen are what racism is. Too many people who are not Klansmen think, therefore, that they are innocent of any bias or racist-driven ideas. It's not all or nothing - there's lots of degrees between the polarities.

based on this lone transgression.

As I mentioned above, correct, this lone transgression cannot be misused to attempt to prove "everything is racism". Nor does it have to be, to be racist.

Given the limited evidence at our disposal, I'm willing to entertain that there simply ignorant and biased human beings, who-being Hollywood types-have very limited interaction with the other 98% of us.

You are welcome to extend the benefit of the doubt. That's how you'd see it based on all the things that make you you; on this board, you'll run up against others who, based on all the things that make them them, are not as willing to entertain an easy out for some. Let civil discourse ensue.

Yeah, it's annoying for those of us who are non-white to see s-it like this on screen,

Indeed.

and it's also hardly proof that life in 21st Century America or The UK is the equivalent of life in Apartheid era South Africa

Again, 21st century America does not have to be the equivalent of apartheid to be bad. If it isn't all, then it's nothing? Nope. This determined push to dichotomize extremes is frustrating. And, let's forget about apartheid South Africa - America is a country that used to sell postcards of dead people who were hanged just because they were Black; just how far forward do you think we can get if there are still people alive today who either participated in or saw a loved one lynched? (And, there are, and I'm not even talking about modern lynchings that go by other names so people fail to recognize them for what they are). Someone born in 1935 would have been 20 years old when Emmett Till was murdered, and they'd be 87 years old today. Medgar Evers' wife is still alive, she's 87.

At any rate, if this is a first, let's look forward to it not being the last.

Go visit the comments section for The Gods Must Be Crazy. I called out the director that film for his ignorant and condescending depiction of hunter gatherer peoples in modern day Africa also

Nice!

And, if anyone is wont to try, it's Mech. So, there you have it!

I'm not a fan of accusing anyone of anything(racism included)without having damning evidence to back up those accusations.

Nor am I. And, even with evidence, I know evidence does not equal proof. Evidence requires interpretation. Most of our arguments are in how we weigh/weight any evidence either of us submits into the discourse.

This used to be just called basic human decency.

Bah. I don't even know what to do with this statement.

It's only recently that screeching racism/sexism/homphobia the minute someone said or did something you find disagreeable became mistaken for an advanced way of being

Being disagreeable can happen without ism accusations. Being disagreeable also happens when people refuse to acknowledge isms that are happening. What's worse?

I'll tell you what's worse - the people who never think anything is racism...but, somehow, manage to be lightning quick at calling people who call out racism racist. How they are capable of recognizing racism among those calling it out, while never being capable of seeing the racism that's being called out, is much worse, in my opinion.

All that said, be clear - NONE of this should be taken to spoil the love-in right now, I'm still basking in the glow of Mech semi-agreeing on the left side of centre!

mecha:

Today, that final second clip would be deemed problematic on account of the pursuer being a blond white guy, and the pursued a black African man. For once, i'm in semi-agreement with The Woke Warriors. This depiction kind of lines up with racist European stereotypes about black people possessing animalistic physical traits, whereas our pasty colored hero seems to defeat him via superior cleverness

It's tough to brush all of this off as unintentional on the part of the filmmakers

Got nothing to do with cleverness but rather being determined to succeed in his mission… what ever it takes.

Looking at the scene from the half way mark I could see the guy was worried while Bond was cool and collected ..a real killer machine .. no emotions, he fought as if he had nothing to lose

He wanted the item and he didn’t think one moment how dangerous it was to continue to pursue the guy into the embassy.

What I don’t get is how he got to the office via door unseen , without a shot being fired and after the killing spree why didn’t they just shoot him .. to hell diplomacy at that point. Didn’t make sense.

Exactly at what mark are you referring to when you say:

This depiction kind of lines up with racist European stereotypes about black people possessing animalistic physical traits

Bond did all the same acrobatics the black guy did.

I don’t get your critic.

Mech says:

"If anything, Hollywood's resistance to showing love and sex between East Asian men and white women is the last real interracial taboo in US cinema which still remains unbroken"

You haven't seen 'The Lover', which came out in 1992?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101316/

Here is a list of many depictions of romances between Asian men & white women on film. I haven't seen all of them but they do exist!

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls005535336/

@mechajutaro said:

Although I am of the opinion that white supremacy is all around us, I would never make the assertion that a scene like this "is" evidence to that.

I'll bite, Mus; in what way is white supremacy all around us here in '22?

Oh, FFS.

And charges of "racism" and every other -ism on this planet aren't something we ought to hurl at one another lightly.

I don't hurl them lightly. Glad we had this talk.

As is this attempt to pain life in 21st Century America as "bad",

Nope, I'm not painting life in 21 century America as bad. I'm recognizing bad things in 21 century America for what they are, bad; and recognizing them, where applicable, within a broader context.

so many of us remain hellbent on uncovering

That's because racists are hellbent on being racist. Most people who have to deal with racism would rather not. For hyperbolic illustration, Black folks in Wilmington NC weren't looking for racism, they were living their lives. Racists burned all their shit down and killed many of them because racists are hellbent on being racist. Same in Tulsa, OK. Same in...same in...same in...

Used to is correct, Mus. The postcards you're referring to fell out of fashion back in The 1960s. For all the many flaws which exist in our civilization today, we've made immense progress since those days. All one needs to do is look at footage from The 1950s and even as relatively recently as The 70s and 80s for testament to how far we've gotten

No one is arguing against the immense progress we've made. It's about continuing, we still need more progress. If you're driving from NYC to LA, taking a break in Denver is fine. But Denver is not LA. And all the progress you've made from NYC to Denver has gotten you closer to LA (yay, progress!), but you're not done yet. Got to keep driving. Why is this so difficult for you?

If we've now expanded the definition of lynching to include any and all murder which seems to have been motivated by racial animus.... yeah, I've no doubt such atrocities still happen today.

Agree. And those are among the bad things we need to recognize as bad. And, too often, they are bad within a broader context. And that context is what perpetuates them. So, instead of parsing the atrocities in minutiae ("each individual tree" or the symptoms) let's step back and look at the broader forest, the cause of the symptoms. What's the value of taking a pain reliever for your headache (symptom) if the cause is a tumor? Let's get the tumor (cause) out and then, guess what? No more headache (symptom).

Again, compare the frequency of such crimes today vs what went on in the early 20th Century

Why? As already acknowledged ad nauseum, yes, the frequency is down. That's progress. Agree. Let's continue, there's more progress to be achieved.

Someone born in 1935 would have been 20 years old when Emmett Till was murdered, and they'd be 87 years old today. Medgar Evers' wife is still alive, she's 87.

Most of us were very-fairly young when 9/11 happened. What do we think the everyday citizens of Egypt, Saudia Arabia, and Afghanistan can do to ease whatever pain we have left over from that tragedy here in '22? I'm not convinced that white people as a class or even The US government can do for the person who's 87 today, and still constantly ruminating on Emmet Till's murder. Last I heard of Medgar Evers's wife, she's gone on to do quite well, and hasn't remains bogged down by the tragedy she experienced

OMG. The point here is about time. Those times are not very long ago - those times are within one lifespan. It's not ancient history, it's living history. Attempting to relegate bad to "some foggy past" is not reality; mindsets and values remain entrenched because they are not distant and foreign, they are still alive.

Those two words (evidence and proof, that is) actually are synonyms, Mus.

This was the single point I was going to reply to. Obviously, I failed to stick to it. What are you gonna do? I'm an imperfect human being in all its frail splendor.

Anyway, it's remarkable that you'd even think about attempting to assert this, Mech. Evidence and proof are not synonyms at all. And that link wasn't even required to undergird my contention. If evidence was proof, then, every time I submitted evidence in support of my argument, you'd acquiesce and concede that I'd proven my argument. You are a person who is hard-pressed to ever concede anything, so you already demonstrate tacit acceptance that evidence is not proof. Yet, here we are, arguing about it. Every case tried in court has lawyers on either side of the argument submitting and testing evidence. Each side tries to demonstrate to the jury that the evidence proves their position. The jury is burdened to weigh all the evidence and decides which side the evidence supports. It is their interpretation of the evidence that decides which argument has been proven, not the evidence by itself.

This doesn't change the fact that the logic that underlies such an interpretation is filled with more holes than the corpses of Biggie and Tupac combined

What a poor - and stupid - way to illustrate your point.

Acknowledge out loud why it triggers you so, Mus.

Because there are better, less morbid, less callous, less grotesque ways to advance the conversation that would less undermine any confidence in your judgment.

It no doubt really gets to you when someone points this out

No. You would look at it that way, but, no.

Piss-poor thinking like that sets rational thought back several centuries

After the way you reference Tupac and Biggie, or employ strawman, false dichotomies, and other faulty pivots, I'm the one evincing "piss-poor thinking"? Incredible.

Alas, that exceptional moment of semi-agreement lasted about a moment long.

At any rate, that's it from me for a bit - I've gotta get some work and studying done.

@mechajutaro said:

@Damienracer said:

@sunshine62 said:

@to The Bear

Yes,I can see to what extent you love Octopussy , it must have felt a dream come true. ✈️

Mecha and I have are old acquaintances.. we have had our squabbles nevertheless his posts often offer great insight.

You and Mechajutaro are old friends? The pretentious lists, the irritating trolling of subjects and genres that neither care about but have to make themselves known anyway was a bit of a clue.

I'm a fan of The Bond franchise, Race. Had you actually read what I've written both on this thread and others on The NTTD board, you'd have picked up on that. The only trolling that's going on here is you joining this conversation, without actually discussing the topic at hand..... Do you agree with David Fear's assessment that D. Craig was the best Bond ever? If so, state your rationale

That's what everyone on this thread has been doing thus far

He's not Trolling ..... You Are .... Mecha Cuntaro

I stumbled upon a video on Youtube ....

It had Mecha Cuntaro's Mother ... being interviewed .... A brothel in Bangladesh.

She later got Fisted.

Then butt fucked by a Dildo

@mechajutaro

You still having fun?? .....