@movie_nazi said:

@rooprect said:

@movie_nazi said:

@rooprect said:

@The Midi-chlorian Count said:

@rooprect said:

An example of how to do it RIGHT would be the Star Trek franchise which took great pains to entice Original fans into the Next Generation. They did this with frequent references, continuing storylines, cameos of old characters and even a major motion picture "Generations" whose sole purpose was for Kirk to proclaim his endorsement of the new guy Picard.

I'm not sure if TOS fans were particularly enamoured with Generations and the treatment of it's legacy character, i.e. Kirk.

What is funny though is that I've just realised that both that film and TFA both gave their returning heroes the same underwhelming death - falling off a bridge after a wee bit of a scuffle 😁

lol I didn't want to torpedo my own argument but. Yeah, Generations SUCKED and I would do anything to erase that stupid random Kirk death (as well as his overall "leave me alone I'm happy cooking eggs" attitude hahaha). So... right. What was I saying 😬

I honestly hated anytime they made a big production when TOS crew interacted with TNG. I thought it was hokey. There was an episode where they ran into Scotty on TNG and that was OK but most of the time it just made my eyes roll.

They sure worked it hard didn't they? lol at least they tried. They were desperate to avoid alienating the TOS fans so I guess they had the right idea... but it came across sorta like that scene in Better Off Dead when the mom cooks a horrible green sludge and tells the kid "It has raisins. You LIKE raisins!"

LMAO! I am showing my age by laughing so hard at that joke. I used to love that film growing up.

Don't even get me started quoting that masterpiece! "First we have Fronch Fries, and Fronch dressing, and Fronch bread, and to drink... Peru!" xD

@The Midi-chlorian Count said:

@A to Z said:

People who don't like the films get dragged along by their relatives during the holiday season.

I think the combination of this with what @oddrob said "They go and see a film 5 or 7 times before it gets taken out of cinema" will make it very interesting to see what happens at the next xmas release, i.e. Episode IX.

Will an xmas release result in numbers from the general cinema going population being enough at that time of year or will the loss of those hardcore fans not going to see it multiple times AND not dragging less interested family / friends along kill that film as well?

Episode X will do fine. I expect you'll see a parade of articles about how Star Wars came "roaring" back after Solo and the TLJ controversy. Abrams is more salesman than filmmaker and knows how to make vanilla entertainment for the masses. He's every bit as corporate and creatively limited as Ron Howard. They'll look at TLJ and Solo and retract some of the errors in tone that Johnson made with the former. Trust me, it's all but preordained that Ep:9 will do better than TLJ if not better than TFA.

@movie_nazi said:

@rooprect said: They sure worked it hard didn't they? lol at least they tried. They were desperate to avoid alienating the TOS fans so I guess they had the right idea... but it came across sorta like that scene in Better Off Dead when the mom cooks a horrible green sludge and tells the kid "It has raisins. You LIKE raisins!"

Don't even get me started quoting that masterpiece! "First we have Fronch Fries, and Fronch dressing, and Fronch bread, and to drink... Peru!" xD

I WANT MY TWO DOLLARS!

This is pure snow!!

@The Midi-chlorian Count said:

1. Mistake in the first place to produce an unnecessary "it's not Harrison Ford" Solo movie.

2. Not letting the original film makers complete their movie and landing up with an uninspired composite piece.

3. The Last Jedi being seen as a terrible final insult.

4. Strange lack of marketing until very late in the day, e.g. the trailer.

5. Proximity of release too close to The Last Jedi irrespective of thoughts on whether it was any good. Maybe an Xmas release would have saved it?

Or something else?

What do you think the main reason has been?

I think numbers 2, 4, and 5 were the biggest contributing factors. However, with number 2, I don't think it's so much that they didn't let Lord and Miller finish what they started. From the press coverage I've read, Kennedy made the right call by replacing them with Ron Howard.

The bigger issue was that the narrative in the press coverage regarding the behind-the-scenes turmoil depicted a disastrous filming process. Because of that, a lot of people didn't feel an enjoyable theatrical experience could be salvaged. From what I've read, it sounds like Lord and Miller encouraged improvisation to the point that some actors didn't feel as if they were getting much actual direction from these directors. Emilia Clarke told Vanity Fair, “I struggled with Qi’ra quite a lot. I was like: ‘Y’all need to stop telling me that she’s ‘film noir,’ because that ain’t a note.’” She was also quoted as stating that Ron Howard "saved" the production.

Regarding point number 1, I initially had that reaction - especially after hearing that they'd cast an adult who was only about 6 years younger than Harrison Ford's first appearance as Han. I thought that it would make more sense to focus on him as a teen so that the audience wouldn't be scrutinizing the difference in appearance to Harrison Ford quite as much. Still, I like Star Wars enough that I was still interested enough in watching the movie despite the actor not looking or sounding much like Harrison Ford. I came out of the theater pleasantly surprised at how well the actors, writing, and direction worked together to capture the essence of the characters we already knew (Han, Chewbacca, and Lando).

As for point 3, I think this only applied to a small percentage of Star Wars fans, but these fans were very vocal in online communities such as this one and may have contributed to driving away more casual movie-goers. I understand most of the criticism that TLJ received, but I know a lot of Star Wars fans in my personal life and haven't had a single discussion with any of them where they give TLJ a positive review. I've heard some negative comments about some aspects of the movie (Leia's force usage in space, lack of backstory about Snoke, etc.), but most of the choices that Rian Johnson made were well-received by everyone I've discussed the movie with in the real world.

@poit57 said:

@The Midi-chlorian Count said:

1. Mistake in the first place to produce an unnecessary "it's not Harrison Ford" Solo movie.

2. Not letting the original film makers complete their movie and landing up with an uninspired composite piece.

3. The Last Jedi being seen as a terrible final insult.

4. Strange lack of marketing until very late in the day, e.g. the trailer.

5. Proximity of release too close to The Last Jedi irrespective of thoughts on whether it was any good. Maybe an Xmas release would have saved it?

Or something else?

What do you think the main reason has been?

I think numbers 2, 4, and 5 were the biggest contributing factors. However, with number 2, I don't think it's so much that they didn't let Lord and Miller finish what they started. From the press coverage I've read, Kennedy made the right call by replacing them with Ron Howard.

The bigger issue was that the narrative in the press coverage regarding the behind-the-scenes turmoil depicted a disastrous filming process. Because of that, a lot of people didn't feel an enjoyable theatrical experience could be salvaged. From what I've read, it sounds like Lord and Miller encouraged improvisation to the point that some actors didn't feel as if they were getting much actual direction from these directors. Emilia Clarke told Vanity Fair, “I struggled with Qi’ra quite a lot. I was like: ‘Y’all need to stop telling me that she’s ‘film noir,’ because that ain’t a note.’” She was also quoted as stating that Ron Howard "saved" the production.

Regarding point number 1, I initially had that reaction - especially after hearing that they'd cast an adult who was only about 6 years younger than Harrison Ford's first appearance as Han. I thought that it would make more sense to focus on him as a teen so that the audience wouldn't be scrutinizing the difference in appearance to Harrison Ford quite as much. Still, I like Star Wars enough that I was still interested enough in watching the movie despite the actor not looking or sounding much like Harrison Ford. I came out of the theater pleasantly surprised at how well the actors, writing, and direction worked together to capture the essence of the characters we already knew (Han, Chewbacca, and Lando).

As for point 3, I think this only applied to a small percentage of Star Wars fans, but these fans were very vocal in online communities such as this one and may have contributed to driving away more casual movie-goers. I understand most of the criticism that TLJ received, but I know a lot of Star Wars fans in my personal life and haven't had a single discussion with any of them where they give TLJ a positive review. I've heard some negative comments about some aspects of the movie (Leia's force usage in space, lack of backstory about Snoke, etc.), but most of the choices that Rian Johnson made were well-received by everyone I've discussed the movie with in the real world.

but did you still not feel a slap in the face when Luke threw away the light saber to his side, it wasnt even funny.

@Don Jon said:

but did you still not feel a slap in the face when Luke threw away the light saber to his side, it wasnt even funny.

No, it did not feel like a slap in the face to me. I didn't think it was really that funny. My reaction the first time I saw that light saber exchange was probably more of a raised eyebrow and thinking to myself, "hmm, that was unexpected." That interaction didn't go down how I had imagined it for the past two years, but I didn't find the handling of it so appalling that I let it negatively affect the rest of my viewing experience.

Probably my biggest gripe about TLJ was the depiction of gravity in space with the bombers literally dropping bombs (and almost a remote control trigger) during the opening battle sequence. But that feels like too much of a nitpick to hold much weight in my overall rating of the film.

@poit57 said:

@Don Jon said:

but did you still not feel a slap in the face when Luke threw away the light saber to his side, it wasnt even funny.

No, it did not feel like a slap in the face to me. I didn't think it was really that funny. My reaction the first time I saw that light saber exchange was probably more of a raised eyebrow and thinking to myself, "hmm, that was unexpected." That interaction didn't go down how I had imagined it for the past two years, but I didn't find the handling of it so appalling that I let it negatively affect the rest of my viewing experience.

Probably my biggest gripe about TLJ was the depiction of gravity in space with the bombers literally dropping bombs (and almost a remote control trigger) during the opening battle sequence. But that feels like too much of a nitpick to hold much weight in my overall rating of the film.

LOL applying real physics to a SW movies is just plain silly. You can go on all day how things displayed in the film doesn't apply to known physics. Maybe the bombs had magnets? Who knows. Who cares. Point being that is the LEAST of what is wrong with the film. The story is the biggest problem. It is a jumbled mess. Luke contemplating murdering his innocent nephew after we saw him see good in his murderous father is stupid. Seriously. We grow WISER with age not stupider. The Luke that Lucas set up for us in episode 4, 5, 6 was not like that and it was just another of Johnson's stupid attempt to produce a "gotcha" moment. Lazy writing and just plain awful. You can't defend this shit by saying, "Oh you're just upset because it didn't turn out how YOU expected it." Wrong. If someone jumps in a swimming pool and walks out completely dry and someone points out, "UH why is he completely dry?" people don't get to say, "Oh shut up. You are just upset because it didn't turn out how YOU expected it. " The film is loaded with BS stuff like this and hardcore SW fans who have been paying attention to lore and stories are the ones more than likely to pick up on this stuff. The casual viewer who saw the film one time 30 years ago are the ones that DGAF.

@movie_nazi

Yes, I admitted that my problem with the space battle physics was silly. That was my point - if that was the part of the movie I had the most problem with, I obviously didn't have much problem with the movie as a whole.

It's quite a leap of logic if you're lumping me in with "the casual viewer who saw the film one time 30 years ago" just because I was able to find enjoyment and be entertained by the narrative choices made in TLJ. I am one of those fans who grew up in the 1980's watching the original trilogy dozens of times on home video, saw the special editions in theaters multiple times, and even watched The Phantom Menace in theaters 3 times the summer it was released because I couldn't get enough Star Wars.

What I don't remember from the original saga is Luke ever being a perfect example of an emotionless Jedi who never lost his temper. After he left the rest of the Rebellion on Endor because he was convinced he could bring his father back from the dark side, did everyone forget how his confrontation on the new Death Star went down? When the Emperor revealed that the rebels had fallen into a trap, Luke could no longer suppress the anger and hatred and attacked just as the Emperor wanted him to. During the duel with Vader, Luke again lost control when Vader threatened to go after Leia if he couldn't turn Luke, and Luke risked losing himself to the dark side in the process.

That encounter is the justification for why the scene you mentioned in TLJ didn't bother me much. Rather than lose control and strike down his nephew in a moment of weakness after sensing the darkness taking hold of young Ben Solo, Luke immediately realized the mistake he was making and stopped himself before going through with anything. To me, that was a sign of an older, wiser Luke who was able to better control his emotions than when we last saw him in RotJ.

I never said that you were upset because they did something unexpected. I simply stated that I noted in my head that the light saber toss was unexpected. The answer to your original question was that the light saber toss did not feel like a slap in the face because my reaction to that part of the movie ranged from neutral to mildly amused at their attempt at humor. In no way did I feel insulted or angered by that scene, but you're welcome to feel how you feel about it.

Think or Think not, this is a flop.

I think the fans have had enough of Kennedy & co. shitting all over the original trilogy and them. Plain and simple. Not going to see Solo was their way of saying "Yeah, just because you call it Star Wars doesn't mean I have to see it."

If the budget was 100 million it wouldn’t be a flop. Underperforming perhaps.

Lots of bad press out there, lots of fan boys ragging on it without having seen it, weird boycott talk going on. I don’t get it. STARWARS is so overrated. If they had stopped at THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK I would have been fine. It’s popcorn fluff, all of it, and I have no problem with that. So I go to see Starwars movies and. . . Munch Six dollar bags of popcorn.

I liked Rey, the force was with her in a big way so she could pull off improbable stuff. I thought she was hot. Does that make her the dreaded ‘Mary Sue’? Who gives a $#!T??? Is this Rey hate worthy of not wanting to see Solo? Sayyy whaat? Lame. Is Lando a ‘pansexual’? Gimme a friggin break, Billy Dee Williams always came across as a guy who would boff anything, so is Lando fond of his droid? Who gives a $#!T!!

How fans got so self important over this stuff is beyond me. Yah, I thought the guy they hired to play Darth Vader in the prequels was a complete fail, yah the microcloridians (whatever) being the science behind the force was pointless, no I didnt like the little kid Vader either, oh yah, I said they could have quit at EMPIRE, before them damn Ewoks showed up, but its all FLUFF, so WHO GIVES A $#!T. INFINITY WARS annoyed me more than this one ( death should MEAN SOMETHING). and everybody and their mama went to see that! Go see Solo, it ain’t that bad.

@The Midi-chlorian Count said:

1. Mistake in the first place to produce an unnecessary "it's not Harrison Ford" Solo movie.

2. Not letting the original film makers complete their movie and landing up with an uninspired composite piece.

3. The Last Jedi being seen as a terrible final insult.

4. Strange lack of marketing until very late in the day, e.g. the trailer.

5. Proximity of release too close to The Last Jedi irrespective of thoughts on whether it was any good. Maybe an Xmas release would have saved it?

Or something else?

What do you think the main reason has been?

Simply because it's not Harrison Ford. Ford has literally made Solo and Indiana Jones his own characters whether he enjoys playing them or not. My Star Wars friends have zero interest in seeing this because for that core reason and my non Star Wars friends don't have any interest in it anyway.

On top of that, this film seemed to be a disaster from the get go, from the hiring of the original directors in the first place to them being replaced then to the reports of Alden whatshisface being a terrible actor. This movie seemed destined to fail from the get go

I hate the idea of Ewan McGregor's solo Star Wars being placed on hold simply because this one has tanked. That's one of the few Star Wars stories that I'd be interested in seeing.

@Theynine said:

If the budget was 100 million it wouldn’t be a flop. Underperforming perhaps.

Lots of bad press out there, lots of fan boys ragging on it without having seen it, weird boycott talk going on. I don’t get it. STARWARS is so overrated. If they had stopped at THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK I would have been fine. It’s popcorn fluff, all of it, and I have no problem with that. So I go to see Starwars movies and. . . Munch Six dollar bags of popcorn.

I liked Rey, the force was with her in a big way so she could pull off improbable stuff. I thought she was hot. Does that make her the dreaded ‘Mary Sue’? Who gives a $#!T??? Is this Rey hate worthy of not wanting to see Solo? Sayyy whaat? Lame. Is Lando a ‘pansexual’? Gimme a friggin break, Billy Dee Williams always came across as a guy who would boff anything, so is Lando fond of his droid? Who gives a $#!T!!

How fans got so self important over this stuff is beyond me. Yah, I thought the guy they hired to play Darth Vader in the prequels was a complete fail, yah the microcloridians (whatever) being the science behind the force was pointless, no I didnt like the little kid Vader either, oh yah, I said they could have quit at EMPIRE, before them damn Ewoks showed up, but its all FLUFF, so WHO GIVES A $#!T. INFINITY WARS annoyed me more than this one ( death should MEAN SOMETHING). and everybody and their mama went to see that! Go see Solo, it ain’t that bad.

You can't even spell Midi-chlorians, you filthy casual. Your opinion matters not.

Komrad you filthy fanboy, the only thing you have brought to the conversation is a one sentence, mediocre, Yoda impersonation, declaring 'flop'. Nobody gives a $#!t about midi-chlorians or how its spelled, it a terrible idea was! I'm not gonna be Googling the correct spelling of obscure stuff in the middle of my rants! Back to the carbonite wafer with you!