Discuss Terminator: Dark Fate
Discuss → Movies → Terminator: Dark Fate → General
Pointless plot and absolute disrespect towards the source material
posted by sati_84STAFFMOD on November 5, 2019 at 7:21 AM
I saw DF a few days ago, but I'm still mad at some of the plot points... Let me break them down here (SPOILERS, ofc)
It was established in T1 and T2, that sending back a terminator and a protector was a last ditch effort by SkyNet and the resistance, and the time machine was destroyed after that. So there should be no more terminators coming, as there is no time machine to send them through. This was not addressed at all!
Sarah and John are inexplicably chilling on a beach in 1998. You could say the date has significance, because they stopped JD happening in 1997, so they were calm and tried to have a normal life, but... it still directly goes against Sarah's character to not be alert at any given time about potential threats to his son. For a Terminator to get a drop on them like that is disrespectful towards the characterization of these two in T2. At least they should've put up a fight. Of course without the help of any protectors, they wouldn't have stood a chance, but it would have showed the T-800 as a legit threat if they failed to stop it. Of course JC is Cameron's character, so he can do anything with him, but my heart dropped when I read his quote about why he thought it was a good idea to kill off John like that. Newsflash: it wasn't. Not like this, not without dismissing the previous point and not without any meaning (see next point).
John's death was meaningless in the long run: only the names of the AI and the people involved changed, but history is always playing out the same way (so much for "There is no fate but what we make for ourselves"), so what's the point?
The Rev 9 doesn't bring anything new to the table. It's incredible that since 1991, no one could come up with a truly surprising ability for any terminator models we saw ever since. It speaks to T2's brilliance that's for sure. Liquid metal, stabbing weapons, imitation of people, endoskeleton... it's like a goddamned checklist from T1 and T2. Besides that, the guy played it has 0,0000003% of the charisma of Robert Patrick.
Grace, the protector has also very little character and charisma. Conceptually she is a cross between a human and a terminator, but in order to avoid her being OP, they gave him this "short bursts of action" weakness. It really showed how the writers artificially crammed this into the plot. Also, the fact that she is saved by Dani and sent back to protect her is a lame rehash of Kyle Reese's relationship to John & Sarah... in that movie it made sense from time travel standpoint to send him back, it had extra meaning. Here? Nah. Also, apart from being a badass soldier, she did not have any character traits. Kyle Reese was human, and had some moments where his personality was revealed. We don't get anything here.
The plot is entirely pointless. It's T2 again, just like T3 and T5. T5 at least had some creativity as it played around with some characters and concepts and had interesting parts. It wasn't a good movie (mainly because of the horrible, horrible casting choices for Kyle Reese and John Connor), but at least it was bold and took some chances. This movie not so much, everything happens just like in T2. Arnold at one point is even damaged almost the same way as in T2, before he switches to a backup power source, just like in T2. Disgusting.
The action scenes are nothing special. A complete misunderstanding of what made T2 a great movie. Truck chase? Check. Helicopter chase? Check. Liquid terminator blowing up then reassembling? Check. T-800 VS liquid terminator? Check. The only new elements were the plane scene and the endoskeleton - liquid outer layer separation trick. The former was entirely forgettable, and even this latter new element was under-utilized. It could have used for some neat fight coreography, but that would actually have taken some effort, so obviously no such scene was planned. I was very excited after the factory fight scene at the start, because finally it was a well-lit scene with nice coreography and fun beats. After that, the highway scene was decent - and then everything went downhill fast. The night scenes in T2 were much better lit than the night scenes in this movie. And the location of the final fight was lame - a similar "factory" looked much better in T2.
The main character, Dani was so forgettable, I almost forgot her entirely.
"Carl" - WTF? I remember the fun speculation we had back on the IMDb Terminator (1984) board (RIP) about what would've happened if any of the terminators from T1 or T2 completed their mission. The plausible answers ranged from shutting down on the spot to proceeding to a safe location and lying dormant until SkyNet calls it again to use him again in the war... but even the most deranged users (and trust me... we had many of those back on IMDb) wouldn't dared to come up with such ludicrous scenario, not even for a fun comment on the internet. To include this nonsense in the script of the film and then filming it boggles my mind! Also I facepalmed when they showed Arnold with a dog in his lap... Dogs should go absolutely mental in the presence of Terminators!!! The fact that it's completely ignoring the switch in the Terminator's head introduced in the DC of T2 is adding insult to injury. When the protector T-800 in T2 learned some stuff, it felt earned, as he asked for the Connors to activate the learning chip. But even at the end of the movie he understands that he may learn about human emotions, thoughts, etc., but he could never actually feel them. "Now I know why you cry. But it's something I could never do.". Of course not - understanding the "mechanism" and the reasons behind crying is a long shot from feeling the emotions that trigger it - and T2 was a smart movie to let this machine understand how exactly is it different from humans and that it can never be a human (of course). And a terminator understanding the value of human life without the learning chip activated in his head would be bad enough, but... but... Carl? CARL? In a cabin in the woods? With a wife? Raising a kid? With a day job? Drapers? Polka dots???????? Balloons???????????? WHAT AM I WATCHING????????????????????????????????????????????????
James Cameron's involvement. This is it. The most painful point of them all. James Cameron is one of my most respected directors / writers working currently in the industry. James Cameron understands how to tell a story. James Cameron knows how to direct stunning and creative action sequences. You know, if none of the original creators of T1 / T2 were involved in this, I wouldn't be this mad at DF. But come on, JC himself came up with killing JC (heh), and I don't know what else he suggested exactly, but at least passively let the other writers disrespect T1 and T2 (details in the previous points), and... I just... don't know what happened to him. If he didn't care at all about Terminator anymore (he stated numerous times in the past that T2 is the end of it as far as he is concerned), then why get involved in the first place? It happened to Ridley Scott (see Prometheus and Alien Covenant), but I never thought it could happen to Cameron: he forgot what elements made his original work so compelling and so brilliant. Such a shame...
All in all, this is the third time they tried to make a decent sequel to T2, and this one also crashed and burned. I gave it 5/10, because overall it's watchable, at times it was neatly filmed, and Sarah Connor's return was badass, as Linda Hamilton still has an amazing screen presence. And I loved seeing Arnold again in action as a T-800 (discounting the Carl nonsense of course). So I'll stop here to end on a positive note.
Did you also think the movie was disrespecting the first 2 Terminator films? Do you think any of my listed points that disrespected the established rules of T1 and T2 can be justified? Let me hear your thoughts, people 
Reply by A-Dubya
on November 6, 2019 at 10:53 AM
I would probably just not even bother seeing this one for many of the points you listed. After I saw Terminator: Genisys, I felt no desire to watch any future films in the franchise. It was just so dumb. Before anybody tries to bury me, it has nothing to do with a female lead character. The original Terminator had a female lead, and so did Alien & Aliens (another franchise I loved before it got out of control).
It seems like the same thing that happened with Star Wars. The changing of core plots and established rules is something that makes even hardcore, long-time fans lose interest in the films.
Reply by cpheonix
on January 17, 2020 at 4:32 AM
@sati_84 you detailed pretty much everything wrong with this and summarised it nicely because it is watchable, just unacceptable as a direct sequel to T1 and T2.
One thing that was completely cheesy and made me roll my eyes was the obviousness of how Dani was the resistance leader, not the mother of one. The night train scene was extremely cringey how Sarah Connor kept emphasising how Dani will bear a "son". At least she could've said "child" so it's not blatantly trying to ram down how society is now all about gender equality.
Reply by AlienFanatic
on March 21, 2020 at 6:56 PM
I'll resurrect this thread one more time now that I finally watched the movie. (It was $3 in HD on Amazon so I decided it's worth it.) At first, I liked some of their choices but the final third of the movie was poor in every way, as many of the posters (including this thread's OP) have said. It's too dark, it's repetitive, Dani's not believable as the hero, Grace is almost unlikable, and Carl's just repetitive.
In the end, my only thought was, "What was the point?" They gender-swapped Dani for John, gave us a carbon copy of the T-800 from T:2, copied the T-1000 from T:2 and essentially made it a combination T-800 and T-1000, gave Sarah virtually no personal progression, and killed the Rev:9 in the same manner that the T:X was killed in Terminator 3. The future is still robots, there's still the same kind of resistance even if the names have changed, and nothing has really gone anywhere.
I've always thought that the franchise needed to do something clever to continue. This wasn't it, and that was borne out by its poor boxoffice and, from the rumors, no further sequels are planned. I just don't get who this was meant for nor what their end-game was to begin with. They painted themselves into a corner and they've convinced us they really don't know what to do anymore.
----SUPERFLUOUS "I think I could have done better" MONOLOGUE----
I still think that the best thing they could ever have done was to kill John Connor, but not in this manner. I often thought that Sarah, not John, WAS the resistance. That convincing Skynet that John was the "chosen one" was the way that a future Sarah could have chosen to conceal her critical identity. Think about it. What good to send soldiers into the past when the enemy knows your weakness? Imagine the reveal when past Sarah finds out that future Sarah INTENTIONALLY sacrificed her/their son for her own survival. Mind-fuck much?
Oh and why the HELL do they keep using David Goyer to write ANY screenplays? The man hasn't had an original idea since birth.
/ STUPID MONOLOGUE OVER
Reply by sati_84
on March 22, 2020 at 5:11 AM
Absolutely agreed! This is why I was hopeful upon learning about Cameron's involvement. but they chose to try to copy T2 one more time, making T4 and T5 stand out as movies that tried to do something different.
The Cameron bamboozle hurts me the most. When he said that in the 80s and early 90s there was a certain message he wanted to convey with his first 2 films, and now in the 2010s the message is due for an update, and he has this update in mind, considering the advances in AI, in the last decades and all... - I was over the moon with joy. Not only will this script be supervised by him to ensure that action scenes will be creative and exciting, but also, thematically T6 will finally bring something new to the table, and from the original creator no less...
And we all know now how it went. Shame.
Reply by AlienFanatic
on March 22, 2020 at 10:02 PM
Cameron came back because the rights to the franchise that Hamilton won from him during their divorce reverted back to him via copyright law. He saw that he could make another buck. And Cameron has a monster-sized ego. (YouTube his "kind of the world" speech at the Oscars if you don't remember.) Hubris is returning to a franchise as its "savior" before figuring out what it is that makes it worth saving in the first place. The first two Terminator movies were great, and Cameron was smart enough to state years ago that the story had been played out. He just got greedy, said some words he couldn't back up with action, hired that hack Goyer to barf out one of his signature half-assed screenplays and called it a day hoping that people were too stupid to notice he'd phoned it in. They weren't.
Reply by sati_84
on March 23, 2020 at 3:13 AM
Call me naive, but I did not expect such a blatant display of Money Dear Boy from Cameron, at least not in connection with the franchise that started his career...
I'm still somewhat hopeful about the Avatar sequels, but his general reputation went way down now in my book.
Reply by martymonstertmdb
on April 1, 2020 at 1:44 AM
Just to clarify Cameron sold the Terminator rights back in the 80s to get the film made. He didn't even own the rights when he made T2. Linda Hamilton did not win them in their divorce. He didn't even own them by then.
Cameron does have a massive ego and by all accounts is not the nicest man on set but I'll never get the flak he got for that Oscar speech. He spends 3 minutes thanking everyone involved in the movie, makes a joke that all the other people he hasn't thanked have just won Oscars so they're covered, and then ends his speech by quoting the movie he just won an Oscar for.
I just rewatched it. The actual line is after his final thanks to his parents and he says
Mom, Dad, there is no way that I can express to you what I'm feeling right now, my heart is full to bursting, except to say, "I'm the king of the world!"
Reply by AlienFanatic
on April 1, 2020 at 5:05 AM
Fair enough, Marty. I stand corrected. I hate when I repeat hearsay rather than facts and I apologize. I went back and found an article about the rights debacle: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/jan/14/terminator-rights-auction. Apparently, he sold it to his first wife, Gale Anne Hurd, for $1 to get it made. Then Carolco owned it, then C2, then Halcyon, then Annapurna, then Skydance, then back at last to Cameron. Lord.
As far as the speech goes, I think it's the fact that the quote is so apropos to his ego and difficult personality that makes it so apt. Perhaps the speech was humble, but the impression left by his exclamation was what lingered. If Cameron were a genuinely nice guy, I have a feeling that the quote would have been laughed off. He's a brilliant filmmaker with an amazingly technical mind, but by most accounts he's a difficult person to get along with.
Reply by martymonstertmdb
on April 3, 2020 at 3:09 AM
@AlienFanatic Firstly thanks for taking my correction in the spirit it was intended. I realised after I wrote it that I might have sounded like a smart arse. I too hate when I find out I've been repeating hearsay. I'm actually finding this is more likely to happen in the podcast age. I have listened to so many guys talk with great authority about films and then when they get to one of the few films I happen to have encyclopedic knowledge about they end up stating a load of facts that are untrue. Makes me question everything I hear on podcasts.
I've been so disappointed in the way Cameron's career has gone. He was my favourite director back in the 80s/90s. For action sci-fi its hard to beat the run he had with Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss and T2. I hated Titanic. I just didn't care about anyone by the time the iceberg hit. I was really excited when Avatar came out. Even if its not his best it did seem like a return to form. In a time when shaky cam action was all the rage, it was great to see clearly made action sequences.
I was hoping a couple of years later he'd release another film - totally unrelated to Avatar and be back in the game. Hell I could even have handled another Avatar 2 years later. Its so bizarre that he has been working on the Avatar sequels for the same time it took to make Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss and T2.
Reply by Strange Bedfellows
on September 18, 2020 at 4:06 PM
This is a feminist tour de farce of a once great franchise. (no - I spelt it right) - the females chosen have no charisma at all - and are not the best of actresses. We have sequences we have seen many times before - and the "new" abilities of the machines to turn into metal grasshoppers seems out of place here. Linda Hamilton is looking every second of her age and her comment that she has been tracking terminators and killing them seems at odds with Grace's remark that you don't fight them you run. I am about twenty minutes in and I am bored and resentful of the destruction of a great story for filthy lucre. James Cameron you should hang your head in shame.
Reply by tmdb22192816
on March 22, 2022 at 11:54 PM
You got a problem with Genisys too ....
What do you exactly want ? ...