@OddRob said:

So what are your predictions for domestically and worldwide? Considering how hyped JL was and failed, do you think this might happen with BP? I think for domestic it will all depend if they try to turn it political/about race. It wont do well if they just pander to a single minority demographic. I think opening weekend could go to 105 million depending on word of mouth. As for worldwide, that really depends on China. I dont see it doing to hot in the Asian market.

Regardless of the story BP has a $200 Million Dollar base for domestic. I also agree that BP will do roughly $100 Million OW. I don't think that BP will be as poorly received as JL because Marvel and the MCU has already introduced BP to the general audience and T'Challa was well received. I wouldn't use JL as a yardstick to measure BP's success of failure anyway. Even if Marvel/Disney didn't make it Political/Race explicit the character will have that perception. Some will see it as PC and whatever negativism that PC is alleged to have. Some will see it as pandering to minorities as a profit grab. The quality of a BP movie as a creative product will not be judged outside of the lens of race.

As far as the Asian market is concerned I don't understand why BP needs to rise and fall on the whim of China's relationship to the movie. Which again is why race is such an unfortunate bar that BP HAS to overcome in order to be graded. Marvel's captain America First Avenger had to over come the whole America thing to be accepted in China as well as the rest of the world. Steve Rogers had to not appear to be pro-America even though the character as created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby were proud that he was an American in order to make a statement against Nazis. the reason why Steve was Blond and Blue-eyed. Disney did an excellent job of downplaying Cap but still China and Eurpoe really didn't give CA:TFA a chance at the box office. It is an excellent origin movie based on the source material. Captain America:TFA had no China box office and only did $193 Million internationally.

Wonder Woman had to deal with being a female superhero and NOT be perceived as a Feminist and with all that baggage only did $409 Million Internationally and ~$91 Million in China. WW still had to battle that whole America imagery and her original costume is all about RWB.

I wish BP really would stay true to it's pro-Black, Pro-Africa roots. It is nothing to hide from. BP doesn't need China to be a success. Even if it did there would be those who would be unhappy if the BP story catered to China or the Asian market for acceptance. You might as well face it though because BP already included a locale shooting in Korea. The BP origin story NEVER has that Asian element but for mass international consumption creatively Asia has been added.

Transformers made it obvious that their product has a China stamp on it and their resultant Box Office shows that they needed China.

BP Should do about $200-250 million Domestic and $400 Million international just because it is part of the Marvel/Disney brand and is a lead in to Avengers:Infinity War. BP's base is $650 Million on that alone. Everything above that will be based on good WOM and effective and efficient Marvel/Disney marketing.

Iron Man 3 got a huge bump from being after The Avengers. I think BP will see a bump because of preceding Avengers:Infinity War and that is a plus for A:IW also. Marvel knows what it is doing.

I basically agree with almost everything you said except for 'BP doesn't need China to be a success.' BP most definitely does need China to be a success. Like you stated yourself BP is going to have to show people that its not just for a certain demographic or be PC for PC sake. Being to Political/Race explicit could and would hurt the odds of films being huge. I mean we all know that MCU/BP/Comic fans are going to see this no matter what. But the key is to get the general audience to want to see this. WW did a fantastic job at not coming of like a crazy fem nazi on steroids that hates all men and men are the problem in the world. It was able to tap into both the male and female market and that was key to its success. Even if it only did 100 million in China, thats still a huge number consider its at 412 million world wide. If BP stays true to it's pro-Black, Pro-Africa roots I dont think it would succeed, at least not in the way it should. Like I stated before, I think word of mouth and user scores are going to make or break this. Look at the new Star Wars. The critics love it and the audience...not so much. Same thing with the all female Ghostbusters. Critics said it was grand and the audience def didnt agree with that shit.

@OddRob said:

I basically agree with almost everything you said except for 'BP doesn't need China to be a success.' BP most definitely does need China to be a success. Like you stated yourself BP is going to have to show people that its not just for a certain demographic or be PC for PC sake. Being to Political/Race explicit could and would hurt the odds of films being huge. I mean we all know that MCU/BP/Comic fans are going to see this no matter what.

The perception of BP being TOO Political/Race explicit is POV and nothing more than the bias of the audience and push back from a segment of the population that feels that society is moving in a direction that they don't agree with. What are the movies that are designated as Political/Race oriented other than those movies that deal with issues that actually happened in history and or are deemed as "Black" movies because the movie has a predominate "Black" cast? Why should BP have to strive hard to NOT be something in order to be accepted as a movie for a general audience? In other words BP has to be Race neutral and Politically neutral. But neutral to whom? And I don't know that MCU/BP fans are going to see the movie no matter what because the comic book version of BP wasn't large and especially gained a vocal group of dissenters during the Reginald Hudlin run and the 2010 Marvel Knights BP DVD had it's vocal dissenters because it was allegedly TOO Black or TOO Pro-Black and appeared to be Anti-White while being Pro-Black. That being said with the caveat of whatever "Black" means in the context of a story about an African King??!!

@OddRob said:

But the key is to get the general audience to want to see this. WW did a fantastic job at not coming off like a crazy fem nazi on steroids that hates all men and men are the problem in the world. It was able to tap into both the male and female market and that was key to its success.

I don't for one minute believe that Patty Jenkins directed; and the screenplay and script were written with a conscious effort to NOT be Feminist in order to attract a larger audience. At no time did Patty Jenkins or WB/DC suits ever state let's NOT make WW a Feminist by design. It didn't happen. WW's success wasn't based on avoiding Feminism or avoiding Anti-Feminism. Amazons by their very creation are Female exclusive. How did or could the movie possibly avoid that??? The movie was widely embraced by women and girls and the bulk of the success of WW was based on those audience members who weren't threatened by a Female on the screen.

Here is the next step on the journey to post-financial success. Patty Jenkins and her film will be judged through the prism of sexism regardless of anything that the director did or didn't do. If nominated for an Oscar or if PJ heaven forbids wins an Oscar it will be stated that she used the Feminist card or got the Female discount by those who recoil when Women or Blacks attain a degree of success.

@OddRob said:

Even if it only did 100 million in China, thats still a huge number consider its at 412 million world wide. If BP stays true to it's pro-Black, Pro-Africa roots I dont think it would succeed, at least not in the way it should.

That's an interesting statement in that you've chained financial success to China. Deadpool ($783) was VERY successful and didn't get a dime from China. Suicide Squad ($746) was a tremendous success and got zero dollars from China also. Why does BP need China dollars again? What is the level of success that BP should attain that is different than those two movies. The financial success bar that I think is appropriate for any movie is staying true to your story or a story that you want to tell without compromising either the Character or the substance of the story arc, and making a profit. To me that number is $650 million based on a budget of $180 million, with the base of what makes up Marvel Fandom and the tolerance of the general audience.

"Get Out" was a huge success. Was true to it's story. Dealt with Race and made a TON of money ($254 Million) on a budget of $4.5 Million.

@OddRob said:

Like I stated before, I think word of mouth and user scores are going to make or break this. Look at the new Star Wars. The critics love it and the audience...not so much. Same thing with the all female Ghostbusters. Critics said it was grand and the audience def didnt agree with that shit.

Ghostbusters III had a different but angrier bias working against it that was greater than Feminism apparently run-amok. GBIII and the "Black" remakes of the Honeymooners and Death at a Funeral have immediate pushback for both, 1. Just being a remake and 2. Being a remake with a Pre-Dominantly Black cast or mostly Female cast. Many, many "White males" apparently become offended very easily if it's not about them now them.

BP's not a remake but yes there is a vocal group that feels BP the film is being done for PC reasons, or to pander to a Black audience exclusively.

SW:TLJ, SW:TFA and even Rogue One are critiqued because of a strong foundation of female leads to the point that Mary Sue is thrown around very liberally. Along with that is any changes to what some feel is against SW Canon. Don't touch my youth. There were no Black Stormtroopers!! There were no minorities in SW!! Why are they there now??!!! Why are you changing my movies??!!

Disney is already vilified for allegedly being TOO kid friendly and what you are suggesting is that Disney's success is based on pandering to a general audience that sees the world of entertainment with only one lens. The lens that doesn't offend that audience.

The perception of BP being TOO Political/Race explicit is POV and nothing more than the bias of the audience and push back from a segment of the population that feels that society is moving in a direction that they don't agree with. What are the movies that are designated as Political/Race oriented other than those movies that deal with issues that actually happened in history and or are deemed as "Black" movies because the movie has a predominate "Black" cast? Why should BP have to strive hard to NOT be something in order to be accepted as a movie for a general audience? In other words BP has to be Race neutral and Politically neutral. But neutral to whom? And I don't know that MCU/BP fans are going to see the movie no matter what because the comic book version of BP wasn't large and especially gained a vocal group of dissenters during the Reginald Hudlin run and the 2010 Marvel Knights BP DVD had it's vocal dissenters because it was allegedly TOO Black or TOO Pro-Black and appeared to be Anti-White while being Pro-Black. That being said with the caveat of whatever "Black" means in the context of a story about an African King??!!

It is a POV, and a POV that studios are aware of. The hard part is actually trying to change the POV of that group of movie goers. Like I stated before I really thought WW was going to be all about 'girl power', how amazing females are and how weak men are. And I was very surprised that it wasnt like that all. They changed my point of view with the film. The studio has to do the same with BP and other people who will probably think this film is to PC/Pro Black/Anti White. BP have to strive hard to NOT be something in order to be accepted as a movie for a general audience for one simple reason....money. Studios dont give a shit about integrity or staying loyal to the source, we all know that. They care about money. So if BP wants to succeed than its going to have to pander to all races and all political spectrum. Not just the 'We Waz Kingz' crowd or SJW crowd. And this is the MCU we are talking about, of course the fans will go see this. But the fans alone wont be able to save it, more on that later.

I don't for one minute believe that Patty Jenkins directed and the screenplay and script were written with a conscious effort to NOT be Feminist in order to attract a larger audience. At no time did Patty Jenkins or WB/DC suits ever state let's NOT make WW a Feminist by design. It didn't happen. WW's success wasn't based on avoiding Feminism or avoiding Anti-Feminism. Amazons by their very creation are Female exclusive. How did or could the movie possibly avoid that??? the movie was widely embraced by women and girls and the bulk of the success of WW was based on those audience members who weren't threatened by a Female on the screen. Here is the next step on the journey to post-financial success. Patty Jenkins and her film will be judged through the prism of sexism regardless of anything that the director did or didn't do. If nominated for an Oscar or if PJ heaven forbids wins an Oscar it will be stated that she used the Feminist card or got the Female discount.

Im sure they didnt intend for it not to be pro feminist, but they made it seem like that wasnt the main attraction of the film. WW had a good story and great character development along with fantastic cinematography. WW was successful simply because they were able to change the POV of many audience members. And that spread to other people, word of mouth. BP needs to do the exact same thing. It cant just rely on its 'Black card' to try and get people in the cinema. And if Jenkins gets an Oscar for WW than everyone will know that it was because she was a woman and used the 'Pussy card' to win it. Because I can think of plenty of other films that deserves to win over WW thats for sure. And Im sure you can as well. But the Oscars are all about politics anyway so who knows.

That's an interesting statement in that you've chained financial success to China. Deadpool ($783) was VERY successful and didn't get a dime from China. Suicide Squad ($746) was a tremendous success and got zero dollars from China also. Why does BP need China dollars again? What is the level of success that BP should attain that is different than those two movies. The financial success bar that I think is appropriate for any movie is staying true to your story or a story that you want to tell without compromising either the Character or the substance of the story arc, and making a profit. To me that number is $650 million based on a budget of $180 million, with the base of what makes up Marvel Fandom and the tolerance of the general audience.

The two movies you have mentioned above have something BP dosent have, a huge following of fans. Kind of like Star Wars. Not to mention Deadpool was never meant to be such a huge success, the budget alone tells you the low expectations Fox had for it. Its like a third of what other Xmen films get I think. And SQ was successful for two reason, Joker and Harley. Even if it was a complete mess of a film the fans pulled it out of the gutter with sheer numbers. In 2015 China Box Office hit $6.78 Billion....that is a crazy amount of money that Hollywood can not ignore. And it dosent matter what you or I think the appropriate success bar should be, what matters is what the studio decides to reach for. Do they play it safe or do they take a chance? Is the investment worth the risk? What is the profit margins? That is what matters...to them anyway.

Ghostbusters III had a different but angrier bias working against it that was greater than Feminism apparently run-amok. GBIII and the "Black" remakes of the Honeymooners and Death at a Funeral have immediate pushback for both, 1. Just being a remake and 2. Being a remake with a Pre-Dominantly Black cast or mostly Female cast. Many, many "White males" apparently become offended very easily if it's not about them now them. BP's not a remake but yes there is a vocal group that feels BP the film is being done for PC reasons, or to pander to a Black audience exclusively. SW:TLJ, SW:TFA and even Rogue One are critiqued because of a strong foundation of female leads to the point that Mary Sue is thrown around very liberally. Along with that is any changes to what some feel is against SW Canon. Don't touch my youth. There were no Black Stormtroopers!! There were no minorities in SW!! Why are they there now??!!! Why are you changing my movies??!! Disney is already vilified for allegedly being TOO kid friendly and what you are suggesting is that Disney's success is based on pandering to a general audience that sees the world of entertainment with only one lens. The lens that doesn't offend that audience.

Ghostbusters got massive push back for two reasons. They belittled the core fan base who didnt agree with the remake. Calling them 'basement dwellers who still live at home with their parents'...that is absolutely no way to treat any fans never mind extremely unprofessional. I mean Im actually seeing actors and directors/producers saying this type of shit, it blew my mind. And two, they went fully political with 'Im with her' shit. Yeah I guess in a way they are with her, in the loser bracket and blaming everyone else for their own failures. But not only that, but Ghostbusters had a terrible script and just didnt connect with the audience. And than when it failed like the piece of shit it was they blamed the 'trolls' of the net and 4chan..because you know, those guys can ruin a film if they want...cause they are magical net gods! I think the new Star Wars films are failing because they didnt stick to the source. Im not talking about having female leads or more black people in it. Im talking about completely ignoring major aspects set up by the first three films. And Mary Sue is a correct term to use for the SW films. No real training or any real passage of time to learn anything and Rey is a expert user of the force. While Luke had to go and learn everything from Yoda. So yes, Mary Sue is the correct term to be thrown around for someone like Rey, and if you disagree with that you must be delusional. Again its not about race or more women, its about respecting the fan base, something Hollywood dosent seem to do very often. And now they are finally starting to see the backlash from the fans. I mean SW will still make bank, but it will under perform for a SW film and thats a fact. Not to mention Disney is also starting to show worry about the new Solo film. I can see re shoots in the near future.

@OddRob said:

If BP stays true to it's pro-Black, Pro-Africa roots I dont think it would succeed, at least not in the way it should.

In what way is Black Panther "pro-black"? It's about a black character. Does that mean all of the white Superheroes are "pro white"?

I don't know White Norm. What were his superppowers again?

@A to Z said:

@OddRob said:

If BP stays true to it's pro-Black, Pro-Africa roots I dont think it would succeed, at least not in the way it should.

In what way is Black Panther "pro-black"? It's about a black character. Does that mean all of the white Superheroes are "pro white"?

Thats what Im saying. If thats all they rely on, being black and pandering to a certain race, it will fail. Simple as that. They need to make BP relatable for everyone, same way Batman or Superman is loved by all types of people, not just white. Just throwing in women and minorities to please SJWs dosent work as the new Star Wars film just learned.

This is why Luke Cage and Agent Carter were the worst Marvel series(except for inhumans). Agent Carter degenerated into some "strong woman" cringe, by denigrating the white male characters and inserting a boring "good" black character who can empathize with the women, because you know, they are both "oppressed".

Luke Cage was another black character who got neutered because the show writers were terrified of making an "angry black man", instead of just making him cool.

I don't think there is anything to worry about with Black Panther. Marvel studios have hit it out of the park with every black and female character up to this point. Have you ever heard Rhodey or Sam ever mention that they were black? Nope. Ever heard black widow whining about how she hast to fight for respect from her sexist male colleagues? I don't think so. T'challa is the king of the most advanced country in the world. Not a chance that "oppression" will be a theme in that film. Not a chance.

There seems to be a lot of excitement for BP whereas with JL it was noticeably absent. Definitely a lot of people hoping for it to be good but pretty much already assuming it would suck long before release. Of course reviews certainly didn't help. Neither did all the rumors about Ben Affleck leaving.

Blade did well commercially (for that era and a non toy movie)... People love Wesley Snipes... The Black Panther cast don't even have a name actor... No Will Smith... No Denzel... International will be tough...

Black Panther will rely on the Marvel brand name and general apitite for comicbook movies... In the US, it depends on how much of a fuss the critics and media make about race.... if they talk about race too much, it will be seen as a race movie and could discourage people from seeing it as there is lecture fatigue at the cinema...

The thing is, the US seems to have race on the mind... No one cared about Blade's race back in the day... it's an issue since the Obama presidency, Black Lives Matter and such...

Wonder Woman.. Gadot is hot. There is sex appeal... Sells tickets...

Personally... I have general comicbook movie fatigue... I think the last one I saw was Batman Vs Superman... These movies are all the same for me... I only go if I'm taking my nephews to see them...

I feel like the only reason WW did as well as it did was because of all the "Gal Gadot, Patty Jenkins, woman empowerment" sentiments going around when it came out. Not saying that it wasn't a good movie because it was, but I didn't find it amazing.

If Black Panther can capture a similar sentiment it will probably increase ticket sales.

I don't know why it wouldn't do well in China. BP is about an isolist nation that is successful and more advanced than anywhere else in the world. It shows that a people united can accomplish great things without outside help. You'd think that's something the government of China would want their people to see. If they market it in China to display that message, it could see big numbers in that country.

@OddRob said:

@A to Z said:

@OddRob said:

If BP stays true to it's pro-Black, Pro-Africa roots I dont think it would succeed, at least not in the way it should.

In what way is Black Panther "pro-black"? It's about a black character. Does that mean all of the white Superheroes are "pro white"?

Thats what Im saying. If thats all they rely on, being black and pandering to a certain race, it will fail. Simple as that. They need to make BP relatable for everyone, same way Batman or Superman is loved by all types of people, not just white. Just throwing in women and minorities to please SJWs dosent work as the new Star Wars film just learned.

The one single reason both Superman and Batman were loved by all types of people was because creators, to use your own term as the very perjorative you use it for against Black Panther and WW, pandered to a white audience. Both those characters were introduced on the printed page and on screen and no, zero, null, ziltch, nada people of color were even background players. You had no option but to pick those characters to love. Superman and Batman had ZERO competition for your hero-worship.

Was it wrong for their creators to pander to their core audience? Let's give them a pass for not creating any Superheroes that didn't look like their creators or authors. They don't get a pass though for totally whitewashing every single person in the background. That's just not normal. Marginalization and Disenfranchisement were on full display and whole heartedly practiced within the print and film creative endeavors when chasing dollars. Let's give them another pass and just say they didn't know what they didn't know. The old Unknown Unknown of ignorance and as a truncheon to "Didn't Care".

Let's just go full bore and call it what it was back then when those characters came on the scene, they were Pro-White characters. They were Pro-Male characters. To soften the narrative let's just say that the creators, drawers, inkers, and film makers weren't Anti-Black nor Anti-Woman but they sure never gave them a second thought beyond the stereotypical norms that women and minorities were forcibly placed into.

Tarzan was going to be Africa's savior no matter how implausible that might seem. A White-Male wrote it and not for one minute did the Africans even get a say so as to who will be their Bwana.

When a character such as the Black Panther is introduced to audiences and is unapologetically African why now does the narrative become Pandering and for a specific audience? Why do the creators of BP now have to worry about offending the sensitive sensibilities of certain audience members? Why is the POV for some the default position that must be guarded and protected; against the offense of an allegedly pro-Black, supposedly political and hypothetically Race-based film product when it is a predominant Black cast?

Seems like a form of Racial censorship or Race-Based protectionism that is meant to protect some unagreed to societal norms to me.

Hollywood has been using the, "an All-Black cast isn't going to be a block buster hit excuse " for far too long even though the audience, the culture and society is changing. In essence the Black character has to act white and be fully assimilated into the dominate culture in order to be lionized and accepted.

Do Women and Minorities have to always negotiate the terms of their unconditional surrender to white male sensitivities in order to be accepted into the Blockbuster club as far as mass entertainment goes? Really

The one single reason both Superman and Batman were loved by all types of people was because creators, to use your own term as the very perjorative you use it for against Black Panther and WW, pandered to a white audience. Both those characters were introduced on the printed page and on screen and no, zero, null, ziltch, nada people of color were even background players. You had no option but to pick those characters to love. Superman and Batman had ZERO competition for your hero-worship.

Ummm Im pretty Superman was created in the 1930s. The 1930s and the 2000s are completely different times as Im sure you know. Im pretty sure no one was thinking of minorities and all of the amazing income they had back than to spend on things like comics and toys. SO yes, it makes sense to have a main character as white and not a woman. Im talking about modern days. Where everyone loves to use the buzz words 'inclusive' and 'gender neutral' and 'toxic masculinity'...yeah amazing times.

Was it wrong for their creators to pander to their core audience? Let's give them a pass for not creating any Superheroes that didn't look like their creators or authors. They don't get a pass though for totally whitewashing every single person in the background. That's just not normal. Marginalization and Disenfranchisement were on full display and whole heartedly practiced within the print and film creative endeavors when chasing dollars. Let's give them another pass and just say they didn't know what they didn't know. The old Unknown Unknown of ignorance and as a truncheon to "Didn't Care". Let's just go full bore and call it what it was back then when those characters came on the scene, they were Pro-White characters. They were Pro-Male characters. To soften the narrative let's just say that the creators, drawers, inkers, and film makers weren't Anti-Black nor Anti-Woman but they sure never gave them a second thought beyond the stereotypical norms that women and minorities were forcibly placed into. Tarzan was going to be Africa's savior no matter how implausible that might seem. A White-Male wrote it and not for one minute did the Africans even get a say so as to who will be their Bwana.

Again, different times. And it wouldnt be considered 'pandering' to a core audience since there wasnt any other audience. Just the white, straight, male audience. I dont know what you dont understand about that. Blacks had more important things to worry about, like not getting lynched for drinking form the wrong water fountain! I dont know should they get a pass? Should our founding fathers get a pass for stealing a nation from the Natives and using slave labor to build the US? Different times and different folks. And Africa....really? Im pretty sure not to many people could even read Tarzan in Africa at the time. You are just grasping for strays now.

When a character such as the Black Panther is introduced to audiences and is unapologetically African why now does the narrative become Pandering and for a specific audience? Why do the creators of BP now have to worry about offending the sensitive sensibilities of certain audience members? Why is the POV for some the default position that must be guarded and protected; against the offense of an allegedly pro-Black, supposedly political and hypothetically Race-based film product when it is a predominant Black cast?

Because now we live in a society of sensitive little snowflakes who cant handle facts and truths. So they create little safe zones for each other and if you have a different point of view you are automatically a bigot. So you cant have a Pro Black African narrative because its not PC. You have to have equal representation, and you have to meet a quota. When a film is majority white, people scream racism. Well this film is majority black. So from that perspective this film is racist as well. But you wont hear that in the main stream media, because its 'progressive.' Its fucking hypocritical is what it is.

Hollywood has been using the, "an All-Black cast isn't going to be a block buster hit excuse " for far too long even though the audience, the culture and society is changing. In essence the Black character has to act white and be fully assimilated into the dominate culture in order to be lionized and accepted. Do Women and Minorities have to always negotiate the terms of their unconditional surrender to white male sensitivities in order to be accepted into the Blockbuster club as far as mass entertainment goes? Really

Its not a excuse, the numbers prove that. And if you cant see that than you must be living in a delusional world. Women and minorities are just, a minority in a majority white male world. Its a matter of fact. Is it fair? No, but when the hell is life fair? So as long as race is an issue, which it probably will continue to be until Aliens attack or the zombie apocalypse happens, its something that people have to deal with. So no I dont think BP will make it into the Blockbuster Club. Will it be a success? Probably but thats only due to the Marvel name.

@Damienracer said:

@OddRob said:

So what are your predictions for domestically and worldwide? Considering how hyped JL was and failed, do you think this might happen with BP? I think for domestic it will all depend if they try to turn it political/about race. It wont do well if they just pander to a single minority demographic. I think opening weekend could go to 105 million depending on word of mouth. As for worldwide, that really depends on China. I dont see it doing to hot in the Asian market.

This thread is one seriously sick puppy that needs to be put out of its misery before it deteriorates any further. Your supremacist alter ego has tried to remain hidden but is doing a bloody piss poor job of it resulting in pure unadulterated drivel so far.

Oh god everyone stop. The snowflake has spoken. He cant handle other peoples opinions. Im **obviously **a white supremacist, a supremacist who loves Blade, a black Superhero, and a supremacist who is going to go see BP opening weekend....let the grown ups talk. If you cant handle this subject move along.