Discuss Predestination
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Who What?? ---- !!!!SPOILER ALERT !!!!----
posted by wilburKlickSTAFFMOD on January 14, 2018 at 2:04 PM
---- !!!!SPOILER ALERT !!!!----
If you haven't seen this film - you should not read the following discussion.
I'm just looking for some insight into which characters were doing what and how they played in the various time lines.
So . . .
We eventually see the face of the bomber and it appears to be John (formerly Jane; with long hair?).
Facial re-constructive surgery results in the face of our "Bartender".
So, it seems like - Jane was the first? (chicken or the egg) - in this line? But, wait a minute, Jane was given up for adoption? . . . wait, who were Jane's parents???? - - - Oh, yeah (thinking as I go) Jane and John were baby Jane's parents.
I think, at some point, the Bartender (do we ever get his name, aside from crossing out "Jane" and typing "John"? Anyway, the Bartender says (paraphrasing) something like, "It's a gift; almost as if we were born into doing this work."
Was Jane genetically engineered - designed for this task?
Jane and John were the same person. Their child, "Jane" is dropped off at the orphanage by the Bartender.
I know this is wrong, but I got to start somewhere: So, I guess(?): Jane > John > Baby Jane > Bartender > > Fizzle-Bartender / / / ?
And then - to prevent the mass bombing event - Bartender kills Fizzle-Bartender.
But, that won't prevent the bombing - right? Because Bartender will eventually go crazy because of all the jumps - and become "Fizzle"?
Could Bartender prevent the bombing by killing himself? But, if he kills himself then he won't be able to make all those future illegal jumps - saving thousands of lives. If he makes all those jumps - he goes mad and becomes the Fizzle.
Back to "the chicken or the egg" - who was first?
And, what role did the mustachio'd "suit" (Mr. Robertson) play in bringing this all together? He first discovered Jane when she applied for a position as an "astronaut comfort" girl? So, she was "patient / agent zero" (selected because she had no one)?
Anyone read the short story?
Thoughts? Observations?
Reply by wilburKlick
on April 18, 2018 at 4:35 PM
Thanks S-with-a-V.
I confess, having seen this film 3 months ago, I had to do a little refresher; watched a trailer and then I found "explanation" videos on youtube. This video runs thru the movie at a rapid pace and, in addition to sending me spinning, it seems to do a decent job touching on a lot of points of interest: https://youtu.be/OvSpa7URvbE
No longer fresh in my mind, but speculating . . .
Bartender-John: "We are born into this job." "You always have a choice".
But, maybe Bartender-John couldn't bring himself to doing what was necessary to end the cycle / stop the bombings.
So, as you say - the Frizzle bombings may have been the driver for Time Agent John.
So, Bartender-John's brain "frizzled" because of so many time jumps? went wacko and became the bomber.
Maybe Robertson (knows everything) was a Lead or Head Agent (of 11 agents) - and he was looking for a way to put an end to this catch 22? But, I don't remember what advice he was giving Bartender-John (other than - perhaps - "fix this").
Did Robertson warn something like - fix this or I/we will? Surely the time traveling agents would have seen that Bartender-John secreted the time-travel device?
If the John/Jane continuum kept ending with the deaths of thousands (caused by one of their agents), then could't Robertson step in and do something (ex: early retirement for John or reassignment or remove ability for him to jump continuously)?
Oh well, my brain is "frizzled" - and I've kind of moved on from this topic, but I do appreciate your reply and reminding me of this fascinating script.
Reply by artlawless
on January 23, 2019 at 1:11 AM
Sorry I'm a year late to this discussion.. but just recently saw the film ..
So the thing about predestination paradox is that there is no beginning or end. It's a perfect loop. and future events in the loop affect past events which lead to the future events. hope i'm not too confusing.
let's take the example of the first two terminator movies (because the rest of them just killed the timeline) John is the resistance leader in the future. Terminators are not able to kill him in the future.
Terminators send T101 back in time to kill Sarah Connor before John is conceived. John sends his lieutenant back to stop this, Kyle Reese.
T101's hand results in the creation of Skynet Kyle Reese results in the creation of John.
It's a perfect loop, we don't know which came first. The future affects the past to create the future.
While the terminator movie is not focused on just the predestination loop, the movie Predestination is hell bent on twisting our minds to turn it into a puddle of paradox.
So why does Jane, John, Barkeep, FizzleBomber exist like that? Because they are a gift of the predestination paradox. They have been bootstrapped into the world just like how the universe is just "there".
Mr. Roberson is a guy from the agency who is overseeing that this predestination loop is maintained, because if it is broken, then that could cause a catastrophe to the timeline. They don't know, they don't want to find out. They handle the anomaly by making her/him chase his own tail.
Here's a superb illustration of the timeline loop - Predestination Time Loop
I have read the short story, it doesnt have Robertson in it. It's just Jane, John and Barkeep. No fizzle either. The film nicely expanded the story.
Reply by wilburKlick
on November 11, 2019 at 1:08 PM
Thanks for your input artLawless. It's nearly 2 years since I've seen the film, so these finer details are fuzzier for me now. Thanks for pointing me to the timeline loop illustration. Honestly, it has me going in circles, but I guess that is in keeping with the theme (even if I get dizzy trying to take it in). I like films like this that make me work my challenged brain matter. Thanks again.