bottom line is, Rian Johnson ignored JJs storyline, so JJ crammed his version of 8 & 9 into one film

Fair comments all round. I suppose the almost random inclusion of extra characters is for marketing reasons. Let's be blunt, Star Wars has done that since day one. Add Disney to the equation and those spurious characters mean potential spin offs as either stand alone movies or TV shows. All it takes is some astro turfing 'fan' commentary 'demanding' to know the back story to character X...

Regards the movie itself- worst offering in the entire franchise, and for a lot more reasons that the OP gave as well. Truth is I couldn't be arsed pulling it apart. Not worth the effort I think.

@aholejones said: Lastly, and this encompasses all of the Star wars movies I suppose. The concept of light speed travel. Wouldn't it be necessary for there to be a clear completely unobstructed path between points A and B for light speed travel to work? Wouldn't it in all likelyhood end up with the space ship hitting some asteroid or space debris at light speed? I suppose that would've been one way to end the movie in the first 10 minutes instead of stretching it to more than two hours.

I know that most of what you posted is a rant that you think is clever. I'll leave that for others to decide and comment on. However, at least the original Star Wars deals with this one item, briefly, when Han Solo angrily explains to Luke why they can't just jump to light speed anytime they want.

Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

I know that most of what you posted is a rant that you think is clever. I'll leave that for others to decide and comment on. However, at least the original Star Wars deals with this one item, briefly, when Han Solo angrily explains to Luke why they can't just jump to light speed anytime they want.

I think he is more of a Star Trek guy.

@aholejones said:

I have to admit I don't remember everything, or to be honest, much about the 'Last Jedi', which is probably a good thing, but still there are things in this movie that perplex me.

First of all where did this cat Palpatine come from all of a sudden? I don't think they mentioned him at all in the two previous stinkers?

That asian woman Rose....didn't she die in Last Jedi when she rammed her space car at something (probably by accident)?

Why does Rey put on some kind of a helmet when she is doing her training and fighting some drone that is taking potshots at her with those powerful weak lasers while she is doing her best trapeze act? It can't be to protect her eyes from the lasers because she takes it right off. So the only thing I can think of it is in case she falls, but that trapeze is set up over some gigantic ravine and I'm not sure protecting your head would do much good after falling hundreds of meters. Also couldn't these BS artists.....excuse me....Jedi fly and generate thrust in the previous movie?

Why does that emo looking kid waste time fixing his Darth Vader copycat helmet? The problem is that it lost all of its meaning after he took it off in like 10 minutes in the first movie and revealed a goofy and nerdy looking guy. You can't go back from that. Kind of like trying to ask some hot chick to go to prom with you and then vomiting on her from the anxiety and then coming back and trying again on the next day.

Why does he use non-unionized space chimp work force to fix his helmet? I have to admit I'm not up to date on all relevant space work legislation, but I'm pretty sure it is in gross violation of several space work acts.

The sword that goofy looking Vader wannabe uses. In his sword the cross guard or quillon is made of lasers. Now I'm no space metallurgy or space sword expert, but isn't the purpose of the cross guard to prevent your hand from slipping up the blade when you hit something? Wouldn't his cross guard just cause him to amputate his own hand pretty much the first time he hits something?

Lastly, and this encompasses all of the Star wars movies I suppose. The concept of light speed travel. Wouldn't it be necessary for there to be a clear completely unobstructed path between points A and B for light speed travel to work? Wouldn't it in all likelyhood end up with the space ship hitting some asteroid or space debris at light speed? I suppose that would've been one way to end the movie in the first 10 minutes instead of stretching it to more than two hours.

In the beginning there is a scene where they transfer data to their ship with a huge sewage hose looking thing. If we have wireless data and USB today, and they have space ships and laser swords (in the future?) why would they need those cumbersome hoses to transfer data?

Our hapless female jedi master can sense that Chewbacca is on a ship that is miles above in the sky or in space, but when she gets to the ship she has no clue where to go? How does this JEDI GPS work?

The female bounty hunter, whose name I already forgot in five minutes, who hates the Poe character and is ready to shoot his brains out. Three minutes later she wants to give him the most precious thing she has just like that? This is some compelling and convincing drama we are witnessing right here.

Why does Mark Hamill....excuse me 'Master Skywalker' in this movie look like a chronic alcoholic with a severe liver cirrhosis problem who heavily OD'd on Viagra and ended up looking blue like a smurf?

There are nearly endless problems with the sequel trilogy, and those problems deserve to be pointed out so people can learn from them. Such is the greatest purpose that mistakes can serve. Now, a couple of the points you made are valid, but some are just silly and show a lack of understanding of the mythos. Do you have any intention of trying to understand, or are you only looking to mock the franchise?

@Ellison Havelock said:

@aholejones said:

I have to admit I don't remember everything, or to be honest, much about the 'Last Jedi', which is probably a good thing, but still there are things in this movie that perplex me.

First of all where did this cat Palpatine come from all of a sudden? I don't think they mentioned him at all in the two previous stinkers?

That asian woman Rose....didn't she die in Last Jedi when she rammed her space car at something (probably by accident)?

Why does Rey put on some kind of a helmet when she is doing her training and fighting some drone that is taking potshots at her with those powerful weak lasers while she is doing her best trapeze act? It can't be to protect her eyes from the lasers because she takes it right off. So the only thing I can think of it is in case she falls, but that trapeze is set up over some gigantic ravine and I'm not sure protecting your head would do much good after falling hundreds of meters. Also couldn't these BS artists.....excuse me....Jedi fly and generate thrust in the previous movie?

Why does that emo looking kid waste time fixing his Darth Vader copycat helmet? The problem is that it lost all of its meaning after he took it off in like 10 minutes in the first movie and revealed a goofy and nerdy looking guy. You can't go back from that. Kind of like trying to ask some hot chick to go to prom with you and then vomiting on her from the anxiety and then coming back and trying again on the next day.

Why does he use non-unionized space chimp work force to fix his helmet? I have to admit I'm not up to date on all relevant space work legislation, but I'm pretty sure it is in gross violation of several space work acts.

The sword that goofy looking Vader wannabe uses. In his sword the cross guard or quillon is made of lasers. Now I'm no space metallurgy or space sword expert, but isn't the purpose of the cross guard to prevent your hand from slipping up the blade when you hit something? Wouldn't his cross guard just cause him to amputate his own hand pretty much the first time he hits something?

Lastly, and this encompasses all of the Star wars movies I suppose. The concept of light speed travel. Wouldn't it be necessary for there to be a clear completely unobstructed path between points A and B for light speed travel to work? Wouldn't it in all likelyhood end up with the space ship hitting some asteroid or space debris at light speed? I suppose that would've been one way to end the movie in the first 10 minutes instead of stretching it to more than two hours.

In the beginning there is a scene where they transfer data to their ship with a huge sewage hose looking thing. If we have wireless data and USB today, and they have space ships and laser swords (in the future?) why would they need those cumbersome hoses to transfer data?

Our hapless female jedi master can sense that Chewbacca is on a ship that is miles above in the sky or in space, but when she gets to the ship she has no clue where to go? How does this JEDI GPS work?

The female bounty hunter, whose name I already forgot in five minutes, who hates the Poe character and is ready to shoot his brains out. Three minutes later she wants to give him the most precious thing she has just like that? This is some compelling and convincing drama we are witnessing right here.

Why does Mark Hamill....excuse me 'Master Skywalker' in this movie look like a chronic alcoholic with a severe liver cirrhosis problem who heavily OD'd on Viagra and ended up looking blue like a smurf?

There are nearly endless problems with the sequel trilogy, and those problems deserve to be pointed out so people can learn from them. Such is the greatest purpose that mistakes can serve. Now, a couple of the points you made are valid, but some are just silly and show a lack of understanding of the mythos. Do you have any intention of trying to understand, or are you only looking to mock the franchise?

Now I admit some of my message was written tongue in cheek and was not serious, but I'm not sure which part showed a lack of understanding of the mythos. Did you mean the part about lightspeed travel or perhaps the Jedi GPS or the monkey workforce fixing helmets? Someone above mentioned the Han Solo quote about lightspeed travel, but the problem with these "precise calculations" is that they would have to have every inch of the universe mapped and I imagine it would require for everything to be stagnant after the mapping has been done. Anyways I suppose it's an issue in very many scifi movies like Star Trek, for example, which somebody mentioned. I take this space physics stuff very seriously and this kind of tomfoolery will not do!

While I'm here......and I've gotten "ranting" about data transfer sewage hoses etc. out of my system, I might as well ask: again with their advanced technology what is the need for a space monkey workforce specializing in helmet fixing? I would imagine they could get one done by a 3d-printer (or whatever they have in their future technology) lickety spit. Hell, as a bonus that thing could probably print out some sweet graffiti on that sumbitch like the NHL goalies have.

While I have no intention of defending or explaining anything from the sequel trilogy (which is why I have no comment as to the sheer absurdity of the mini monkey worker brigade), I took particular notice of your question regarding Rey's training helmet. She was wearing a traditional Jedi training helmet with blast shield, designed to block her vision. Luke wore a near-identical helmet in Star Wars. Many younglings were shown to be wearing the same type of helmet while being trained by Yoda in Phantom Menace. The general idea here being that the Jedi-in-training must suspend their physical sight channel in favor of 'reaching out with the Force' as explained by Obi-Wan in Star Wars (1977). That said, the training sequence at the beginning of Rise of Skywalker is silly and serves as little more than a flex for Rey's ability to tap into the metaphysical Girl Power Force. But the problems with it are not that she was wearing that helmet.

Regarding the mapping of the galaxy for hyperspace calculations, consider that the Republic predated Palpatine's Empire by numerous thousands of years. I'm no lore expert, but I can recall off-hand that the Old Republic existed more than 5000 years before the prequel trilogy. If the movie dialogue in the prequels is to be taken literally, the Jedi have been keepers of the peace in the Republic for "over 1'000 generations." The typically accepted definition for how long a 'generation' is, is 25 years. That means that the Jedi have been keeping the peace in an established, governed society for over 25'000 years. Therefore, as heavy as the workload would be to map the galaxy for hyperspace, given the amount of time that hundreds - or perhaps thousands - of planets have had, I think it is possible that the appropriate work and algorithms could have been arranged.

I agree that there is a great deal of suspension of disbelief required in order to accept Star Wars; that's part and parcel with sci-fi, fantasy, etc. I agree with a number of your other points, but disagree with the ones I have outlined here.

Seriously guys, this line of enquiry is fruitless. Star Wars isn't science fiction. There is no science at all in it. It is a fairy tale set in space.

The internal logic of it would not be violated at all if they were flying around on the backs of dragons rather than in space ships.

The random space jumping is stupid not because it violates anything in the 'history' of the franchise, but because it is just a really stupid idea. The sort of thing a 5 year old would dream up playing in his bedroom fort. That it came from the minds of well regarded professional writers and film makers and actually made it onto the screen is astonishing.

I disagree acutely. Star Wars has fantasy elements, but it is false to say that it isn't science-fiction at all. It has elements of science-fiction in it, which are not the focal point of the franchise because it is not a "hard SF" mythos, such as the Lensman series, Eon, etc. It is more correct to call Star Wars science-fantasy. Lightsabers, the Death Star primary laser, podracer technology, and deep space travel, are all science-fiction concepts. The argument could be made that hyperspace is a science-fiction concept, though it may not necessarily be. There are other examples which could be given.

Any fictional mythology has a canon, by the definition of the word 'canon.' As such, any fictional mythology can have its canon violated. By basic literary criticism, a violation of a story's canon is an error to be avoided. Pointing it out is, in fact, fruitless if one's goal is to change or repair the artwork - Disney isn't about to go back and remake the entire sequel trilogy - but it is far from fruitless if it creates a dialogue about understanding fiction. The discussions being had since late 2015 concerning the objective vs subjective factors of art, understanding art, understanding story and character, etc. are important discussions. Video essays from YouTube creators such as MauLer, Rags, and KingEmperorPenguin are valuable resources to understand how to avoid some of the sore mistakes in Disney's Star Wars movies. The same principles would also apply to The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, as well.

Your point about space dragons not violating the internal logic is incorrect. However, an important point to make is probably the severity with which the work of art treats itself. If it could be shown that fans of Star Wars treat the franchise's internal logic (canon) more seriously than the original scripts, films, books, etc. did, then it could be persuasively argued that the fans are in the wrong - not because they are factually incorrect, but because they are assigning a motive to the franchise that it never had. Specifically, the motive to create and maintain a canon that makes sense, while telling a compelling or important story. If the franchise were a slapstick comedy series in the vein of Monty Python, it would hardly matter if anything made sense from one scene to another - who ever complained that Eric Idle played 16 roles in Meaning of Life? As it stands, though, Star Wars originally had an important spiritual message, social messages, and conveyed a compelling story with a largely-cohesive mythos behind it. Outwardly, it seemed to take itself more seriously than, say, The Last Jedi does.

Whether or not any of the ideas showcased in Star Wars are 'stupid' would probably come down to one's own perception. Space-jumping was also used as an important plot point in Event Horizon, and was absolutely explained as a science-fiction device in that story. The fact that Star Wars doesn't dwell on the 'how' of it, does not change much.

When I say there is no science at all in Star Wars that isn't me waving labels around. It is just what the thing is, or rather isn't. It has been understood from the first movie that Lucas took elements from various fairytales and adventure stories such as Arthur and Excalibur, Robin Hood...some even mentioned the Christ story.

The magical elements are everywhere in Star Wars. I shouldn't need to list them. Conversely, the 'science' elements are mere set dressing. Almost nothing in the stories depends on anything we might understand as science or technology. This isn't a difference between 'hard' SciFi and Science fantasy; it is really about the locus of the story. Take away the magical, fairytale elements and everything evaporates. Take away the droids and space ships etc and you still have nearly if not all the tale. This is absolutely clear from the very opening words written on the screen nearly half a century ago.

As for canonicity, Star Wars is one of the few stories where virtually everything perplexing can be explained away by reference to a single concept : Because...The Force

So, how does the pilot not fly the ship into space stuff when randomly jumping? The Force runs strong in this one....

What makes it stupid is that it doesn't even need to be in the story and is inexplicable to a rational mind. It is a pointless device.

Good that you mentioned Event Horizon, another genre confused film that was a commercial bomb. This was due in no small part to the fact it was a horror movie that was presented as SciFi. I actually enjoyed that one, as I have enjoyed many of the Star Wars films.

Again, I disagree. However, it's sounding like I have my stance on the matter and you have yours, and never the twain shall meet. I could argue it into the ground - and I'm tempted - but I'll refrain. I think it's highly unlikely that either of us will convince the other to view the matter from the other's perspective, so there's probably no purpose in arguing it with you any further. Take care.

Forums, and life itself I suppose, wouldn't be very interesting if everyone carried the same opinions.

I tend to agree with Jacinto here Star Wars is more like a Science Fantasy or a space opera .And I think he makes a fair point after all "In a galaxy far far away"sounds a lot like the "Once upon a time"which opens many fairy tales.

@Nexus71 said:

I tend to agree with Jacinto here Star Wars is more like a Science Fantasy or a space opera .And I think he makes a fair point after all "In a galaxy far far away" sounds a lot like the "Once upon a time" which opens many fairy tales.

you left off a relevant part: "Once upon a time, in a land far far away... "

I think readers got the point.