@DRDMovieMusings said:

@CelluloidFan said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@MongoLloyd said:

and started using his father to score his movies.

Not sure what this means. His father is a musician (and a great one, at that). If Spike gets his father Bill some work, and Bill does a good job, why not "use him"?

Besides that, it seems that his chronology is out of wack. I thought that Bill Lee scored She's Gotta Have It?

Yep. That was Spike's first movie, and it's one of my all-time favourite film scores. So yeah, I'm not sure about "started using his father" as if that was later, when he "used' his father from jump.

Right. But I think Spike did a few films before She’s Gotta Have It. There was The Answer, which was filmed while he was a student at NYU. It’s a response to D. W. Griffith’s The Birth of a Nation.

@CelluloidFan said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@CelluloidFan said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@MongoLloyd said:

and started using his father to score his movies.

Not sure what this means. His father is a musician (and a great one, at that). If Spike gets his father Bill some work, and Bill does a good job, why not "use him"?

Besides that, it seems that his chronology is out of wack. I thought that Bill Lee scored She's Gotta Have It?

Yep. That was Spike's first movie, and it's one of my all-time favourite film scores. So yeah, I'm not sure about "started using his father" as if that was later, when he "used' his father from jump.

Right. But I think Spike did a few films before She’s Gotta Have It. There was The Answer, filmed while he was a student at NYU. It’s a response to D. W. Griffith’s The Birth of a Nation.

Sure, but I'm willing to bet the concern about when Spike was good vs. when he "started using his father" was not referencing that period before his first feature length film since very few would have seen any of those anyway.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Is it possible that you, like most human beings, simply have a bias that makes it more difficult to hear jazz?

No, it's not possible. My assertion has nothing whatsoever to do with music genre. As mentioned, specifically, the score for this title is just not a good score. A movie score shouldn't jolt you out of a seamless viewing experience and it shouldn't be a showcase for the composer. It should compliment the film itself. It's there to augment the visuals and dialogue as it unfolds and manifests the story.

The point of the term "implicit bias" is that people don't realize they harbor it toward others... just adding to the discussion.

@MongoLloyd said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Is it possible that you, like most human beings, simply have a bias that makes it more difficult to hear jazz?

No, it's not possible. My assertion has nothing whatsoever to do with music genre. As mentioned, specifically, the score for this title is just not a good score. A movie score shouldn't jolt you out of a seamless viewing experience and it shouldn't be a showcase for the composer. It should compliment the film itself. It's there to augment the visuals and dialogue as it unfolds and manifests the story.

OK. When I get around to seeing this movie, I'll get a sense whether the score jolts me out of the viewing experience and circle back here with more light on the objective vs. subjective vantage on this.

@CelluloidFan said:

The point of the term "implicit bias" is that people don't realize they harbor it toward others... just adding to the discussion.

yawn

@MongoLloyd said:

@CelluloidFan said:

The point of the term "implicit bias" is that people don't realize they harbor it toward others... just adding to the discussion.

yawn

Walking upright? yawn

Having opposable thumbs? yawn

Being a human being? yawn

All hail MongoLloyd who has transcended mere human existence yet graces us with its presence among us mere mortals. We are not worthy.

Oh please, please, please, tell me more about what I'm really trying to say when I clearly make objective judgements about a movie score. Especially when only one of us has seen the movie.

@MongoLloyd said:

Oh please, please, please, tell me more about what I'm really trying to say when I clearly make objective judgements about a movie score.

Except your objectivity isn't clear. Besides, in other posts, you've made judgments of people's work based on your perception of them - what goes around, comes around, and if you can't take it, you shouldn't dish it.

Especially when only one of us has seen the movie.

Yeah, and I conceded that. It is no problem for me to recognize my limitations, I'm okay being a human being, I don't dismiss that concept, and that makes me a reasonable person with whom to argue. People who demonstrates either the inability or unwillingness to own their imperfections are difficult to engage any constructive discussion.

"There's elevator music playing under the playground scene where Dawson's character meets Norton's character that then continues under the following scene in the bar. There's a really annoying, loud, and obtrusive piece playing over the scene in the hotel overlooking the 9/11 memorial that just drags on and on and basically punches a viewer in the face. There are moments of very odd and out of place notes from wind instruments that just make NO sense."

@MongoLloyd said:

"There's elevator music playing under the playground scene where Dawson's character meets Norton's character that then continues under the following scene in the bar. There's a really annoying, loud, and obtrusive piece playing over the scene in the hotel overlooking the 9/11 memorial that just drags on and on and basically punches a viewer in the face. There are moments of very odd and out of place notes from wind instruments that just make NO sense."

That's a fair criticism - I can work with that!

Keep in mind that, more often than not, very little ends up in the final edit that was not intended. It is very possible that the director, a human being, made a mistake (as I think I mentioned earlier in this discussion); however, the audience is called upon, challenged even, to put in a little work to understand what the director was trying to put across before simply dismissing the effort - terrific examples include the interpretations of Stanley Kubrick's The Shining, or Eyes Wide Shut. (And please resist the urge to spin off on some tangent about comparing Lee to Kubrick, that's not the point of the comment). To keep things simple, if these two examples were too distracting, go with another splendid example: Arrival (2016).

At the end of the day, given Spike Lee's proven craft, especially in interweaving splendid musical scores into his movies, and (again, as I've mentioned) having not yet seen the movie, I'm going to go into it giving Lee the benefit of the doubt which, I believe, he has earned.

If you're still around in this discussion after I've finally gotten around to watching 25th Hour, I'll look forward to revisiting my hypothesis with the traction of actually having seen it.

Lee is very uneven with regard to making sensible directorial decisions and films in general. Did you see his bizarre portrayal of a news man in Summer of Sam? Did you see She Hate Me? Oldboy?

@MongoLloyd said:

Did you see his bizarre portrayal of a news man in Summer of Sam?

It was so funny. Intentionally so, I'm sure.

What was funny about it? Is odd and completely disconnected from reality, funny?

I took it that was Spike Lee's critique of the mass media - that they're "disconnected from reality."

In the theater where I saw Summer of Sam, I recall hearing this black woman laughing when Lee did his portrayal of the news man. So I'd say that his decision paid off.