I don't know where the movies are going, myself, and I'm rather tepid about TFA as well. Unlike you, I didn't get much out of Rogue, but I don't really call myself a Star Wars fan, either. I'm old enough to have seen Star Wars during its original run and I have fond memories of it. I also saw Empire when it came out, but I have fewer memories about that. For Jedi, I didn't even go to see it in the theaters, opting instead to have a birthday party at my own house where we were allowed to rent that new thing, a VHS player (!!) and a half-dozen movies. (It was quite the revelation at the time.)

I did watch the re-released and "upgraded" movies back in '97 and enjoyed seeing them with my oldest son. Of course, I also bought into the hype around The Phantom Menace, but walked away wondering why it didn't feel as good as the originals. I saw Clones on a whim during a trip to visit relatives, but in retrospect I find that move utterly unwatchable. Sith felt like it was trying too hard to clean up all of the messes left behind by the first two prequels, and I didn't even bother seeing it until it hit video.

In short, Star Wars really hasn't had that strong of a track record to begin with, at least not to me. It's had a mottled history, grounded by two remarkable first movies (Star Wars and Empire), followed by a string of lackluster sequels and prequels. I don't know why so many expected more from J. J. Abrams, a competent director technically but completely devoid of any original ideas of his own. TFA was a corporate product from Disney, THE most calculated, business-oriented entertainment company on Earth. It was a movie narrowly designed to tap into the nostalgia of the original while transitioning to a very, very young new cast so that they can milk the franchise for twenty years until they do it all again.

Star Wars was, originally, an idea from the mind of one man. He created this universe on his own. Over time, he lost the plot and a few very good authors (Timothy Zahn chief among them) kept this universe alive in books. But Lucas walked away from the franchise years ago and though he tried to recapture the magic with the prequels, I think by that point he'd lost whatever creative spark it was he had when he was young. He still wants to be that young, idealistic director but he's still the corporate executive he became over time. Disney has never had a "soul" since Walt died. They're a juggernaut with incredibly smart people at the helm. But they design their movies by formula. They know exactly what will and won't work and they hammer it again and again.

If you're looking for the same creative spark and new ideas that came from the mind of the young George Lucas, I think you'll find every further movie disappointing. As I said, I'm not particularly attached to the franchise. When I saw TFA I knew that the future of the Star Wars movies would be this. The movies will do well, and Disney will make back far more than the $4B they paid George, but they'll never seem original again. They're not designed that way.

Thanks for your thoughts AlienFanatic, I agree about the original trilogy, I do find it odd that only the first two films were actually groundbreaking but by the time RotJ came, it lost it spark, this could be because this was when Gary Kurtz had a falling out with George Lucas of how they wanted to shape the then-future of Star Wars. The potential of the Prequels was completely wasted, things like a bland story, overuse of CGI for backgrounds that don't blend with live actors where basically walking on a floor that's not even there, poor dialogue and finally everyone's favourite punching bag, Jar Jar Binks, the worst comic relief character put to film.

I see you mention about the Star Wars Books like the The Thrawn Trilogy, I've never read any of them but I suppose those are the closest to what how an actual continuation of the original trilogy should be like. However, Star Wars is not in good place now, it maybe making money but it might as well be purely advertising for the toys. :(

I'll step in here, I actually do NOT agree that the prequels lost the spark of creativity that existed in the originals, and in fact TPM was to me the most "Star Wars" the prequels got, it was imaginative, original and fun with a sense of adventure. Of course it did have it's problems, and I think people have gone way too far overboard with the Jar Jar Binks hate, there are FAR worse comic relief characters out there, I'm sorry. Personally, for me the worst of the prequels was AotC, and the worst part of it all was Hayden Christensen. As for the CGI, Lucas was always big on pushing special effects to new limits, he did it in the original trilogy, and as soon as CGI arrived, he was one of the first to use it as well. A lot of people complain about the CGI in the prequels, and I guess they can if they want to, but the fact is that there were actually a LOT of practical effects mixed in with CGI, that Lucas wanted to use to push the boundaries of CGI instead of practical, and in many ways he succeeded. Love or hate the CGI all you want, I can understand the criticism, but remember that stop-go and many other special effects had to start somewhere.

Now, with that tangent out of the way, I will admit I lost my love for Star Wars after the last "re-edit" of all of the movies when it was released on blu-ray. I just lost my love for it, and generally did not care at all. When the announcement was made that DIsney had purchased Star Wars, I knew what was going to happen, and when within a week of the purchase, Disney made that stupid commercial with the dad pretending to be Darth Vader aired just so that the Studio could smear their name all over it and say "mine now", that position was only strengthened.

Even then however, even THEN, nothing prepared me for how insultingly stupid, unimaginative, and cynical the awful thing that was released would be. I bought the Chinese knock-off DVD (I'm in Nanjing) and I still felt ripped off. I agree with you completely AlienFanatic, J.J. Abrams is technically a good director, but I genuinely find him nothing more than a glorified Michael Bay, with more pretentious fans, I was not a fan of what he did with Star Trek (another franchise that I like, but don't love), downright appalled by Into Darkness (Though I also blame most of that on Lindelof), and completely disgusted by TFA.

Rogue One was unexpected for me, I actually really enjoyed that movie a lot. I felt it did a beautiful job of bridging the Prequels to the OT, and had some very interesting, subtle character moments, with characters that were clearly fleshed out, and had definite and understandable motives. If Disney somehow manages to turn out more films like it, I think we'll be okay, but knowing Disney, it was just good luck, and even then, it was not left without the studio interfering because they thought it was "too much of a war film".

I think The Last Jedi will be the major indicator as to the future of the franchise, but my hopes aren't high, and apparently, neither are Mark Hamills.

@Tsavo said:

I'll step in here, I actually do NOT agree that the prequels lost the spark of creativity that existed in the originals, and in fact TPM was to me the most "Star Wars" the prequels got, it was imaginative, original and fun with a sense of adventure. Of course it did have it's problems, and I think people have gone way too far overboard with the Jar Jar Binks hate, there are FAR worse comic relief characters out there,

My biggest problem with TPM was that it never set up a credible reason for the prequels. A trade dispute, while plausible, isn't a terribly interesting or effective introduction to the conflict. I also thought that the direction killed the movie. You may be right that it had interesting ideas, but the execution was incredibly poor, the dialogue was stiff, and the set pieces overwhelmed the story. This criticism is all old hat, though, and I'm long past caring.

I'm sorry. Personally, for me the worst of the prequels was AotC..."

I agree completely on this. AOTC was a terrible, terrible film.

...and the worst part of it all was Hayden Christensen."

I've heard that in some other films Hayden has been effective when paired with a good director. However, I found almost every actor's performance stiff and their dialogue unrealistic. With material like TPM and AOTC to work with, Sir Laurence Olivier would have struggled. Lucas simply cannot write or direct dialogue, which is why the characters feel so much more human and dynamic in Empire than they did in Star Wars.

I think The Last Jedi will be the major indicator as to the future of the franchise, but my hopes aren't high, and apparently, neither are Mark Hamills.

It's Hamill's critique of his character arc in TLJ that has me most concerned. I am not excited for this next film at all, though I'd love to be happily surprised.

@AlienFanatic said: It's Hamill's critique of his character arc in TLJ that has me most concerned. I am not excited for this next film at all, though I'd love to be happily surprised.

That doesn't sound good if Hamill isn't happy with how they wrote his character...

@Rocketeer Raccoon said:

@AlienFanatic said: It's Hamill's critique of his character arc in TLJ that has me most concerned. I am not excited for this next film at all, though I'd love to be happily surprised.

That doesn't sound good if Hamill isn't happy with how they wrote his character...

He has said that he "fundamentally disagrees" with every choice that Rian Johnson made for his character. Again, he's just an actor but I suspect that his tastes will reflect those of much of his older audience, like me. How his arc is perceived by the millennials that grew up with the prequel trilogy is the million dollar question.

@Tsavo said:

I'll step in here, I actually do NOT agree that the prequels lost the spark of creativity that existed in the originals, and in fact TPM was to me the most "Star Wars" the prequels got, it was imaginative, original and fun with a sense of adventure. >

.

^{^} Good post. My two cents: People purporting that the PT or any of it's parts lost it's spark of originality and/or imagination exit the circle of common sense and facts. Love or hate these movies, that’s only fair - but artistically they represent one of the rare occasions of original and creative moviemaking, with all the new concepts and designs (from vehicles, pods, costumes, aliens to William's music), the elaborate world building and the storytelling

(just comapre this to the recent fanfic level rehashes we got with VII)

As for the storytelling, where in blockbuster history did we have a veritably dystopian downfall story in which the forces of darkness win in the end, and the heroes get corrupted? A good example is Palpatine’s plot and scheming, starting with him becoming chancellor (by having his home planet occupied and using the sympathy bonus to block democracy and get himself elected), and then creating a civil war to obtain all internal competences to be able to eliminate and corrupt his enemies, allies and puppets (Jedi, democracy, Senate, business federations, Sith). We see a system (Republic, Jedi) and a people (esp Anakin) stumble over themselves and fall into dictatorship. People believing the PT is about trade disputes should better remain with their usual entertainment, but not opinionate on alien subjects.

I will also go this far from an writing theory angle: Unlike with the Original Trilogy where each part was made up ad hoc, and in which twists created plot holes and inconsistencies (poor Obi Wan's integrity suffered the most, as long as Luke/Leia innocent romance), Lucas when writing the PT actually knew what he was doing, and where it would all end: Beginning with Anakin's formed attachment which eventually prevented him from becoming a Jedi and betraying everything he swore to protect, to Palpatine’s scheming his way up, to the balance of the Force concept.

End of rant. Good day.

@Jedan Archer said:

@Tsavo said:

I'll step in here, I actually do NOT agree that the prequels lost the spark of creativity that existed in the originals, and in fact TPM was to me the most "Star Wars" the prequels got, it was imaginative, original and fun with a sense of adventure. >

.

^{^} Good post. My two cents: People purporting that the PT or any of it's parts lost it's spark of originality and/or imagination exit the circle of common sense and facts. Love or hate these movies, that’s only fair - but artistically they represent one of the rare occasions of original and creative moviemaking, with all the new concepts and designs (from vehicles, pods, costumes, aliens to William's music), the elaborate world building and the storytelling

(just comapre this to the recent fanfic level rehashes we got with VII)

As for the storytelling, where in blockbuster history did we have a veritably dystopian downfall story in which the forces of darkness win in the end, and the heroes get corrupted? A good example is Palpatine’s plot and scheming, starting with him becoming chancellor (by having his home planet occupied and using the sympathy bonus to block democracy and get himself elected), and then creating a civil war to obtain all internal competences to be able to eliminate and corrupt his enemies, allies and puppets (Jedi, democracy, Senate, business federations, Sith). We see a system (Republic, Jedi) and a people (esp Anakin) stumble over themselves and fall into dictatorship. People believing the PT is about trade disputes should better remain with their usual entertainment, but not opinionate on alien subjects.

I will also go this far from an writing theory angle: Unlike with the Original Trilogy where each part was made up ad hoc, and in which twists created plot holes and inconsistencies (poor Obi Wan's integrity suffered the most, as long as Luke/Leia innocent romance), Lucas when writing the PT actually knew what he was doing, and where it would all end: Beginning with Anakin's formed attachment which eventually prevented him from becoming a Jedi and betraying everything he swore to protect, to Palpatine’s scheming his way up, to the balance of the Force concept.

End of rant. Good day.

Excellent!

Unlike with the Original Trilogy where each part was made up ad hoc, and in which twists created plot holes and inconsistencies (poor Obi Wan's integrity suffered the most...)

😂 Obi-Wan's integrity suffered the most because of the PT, which Lucas obviously wrote on the back of a fag packet, hence the ludicrous placing him at Luke / Leia's birth. Hence turning him into an old misogynist in the OT declaring "that boy was our last hope". What Obi-Wan girls don't count?!! Don't let Auntie Kennedy hear you say that...

@The Midi-chlorian Count said:

Unlike with the Original Trilogy where each part was made up ad hoc, and in which twists created plot holes and inconsistencies (poor Obi Wan's integrity suffered the most...)

😂 Obi-Wan's integrity suffered the most because of the PT, which Lucas obviously wrote on the back of a fag packet, hence the ludicrous placing him at Luke / Leia's birth. Hence turning him into an old misogynist in the OT declaring "that boy was our last hope". What Obi-Wan girls don't count?!! Don't let Auntie Kennedy hear you say that...

Respectfully disagree - nostalgia is clouding your mind, and creating scapegoats to ignore the awful truth. Spoiler: Obi Wan as a character was ruined by the Vader twist by and in the OT:

1. The Vader twist in Empire made everything what nobel Obi Wan told Luke in A New Hope about his father a unnecessary lie.

2. Even WORSE, in Empire when Luke quits training to save Leia/Han, Ghost-Obi Wan still does NOT tell him that it was all a lie, and that Vader could use the daddy-truth against Luke ("...uh, Luke there is something you should know, before facing Vader..."): But he and Yoda let Luke blindly run into his certain doom. We all know how well it went for Luke ("Ben, WHY did you not tell me...?")

3. To add insult to (hand) injury, in Jedi, when confronted with his pathological lying, the old hypocrite instead of saying that he is so sorry only could respond with holier-than-thou, condescending pseudo-wisdoms: "...So, what I told you was true... from a certain point of view. Luke: A certain point of view? Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view...." Suuure, tell it to the robot hand, Obi! Under criminal law that would be reckless endangerment.

So, the OT ruined Obi because of bad writing. The PT is pretty innocent in this regard. I think it would be absurd to assume that Obi Wan in the OT was not aware of Leia (we know historically that Leia only suddenly became Lukes sister in Jedi). It would not really make sense (and render Yoda stupid) to assume that Yoda knows, but NEVER tells his last Jedi-buddy Obi Wan this very important galaxy-saving fact in all these years (especially as Ghost Obi seems to be everywhere). Even if so, what about the Force? In the end Obi told Luke about Leia - very casually btw - ah, yeah, of course, you have a sister too, I neglected to mention all the time too. But you know me, old Obi Wan...

If they want to make interesting movie, they should get rid of any notion of "fan service"... Just give both the writers and the director free reign to do as they please... They could get lucky and end up with something special like Prometheus or The Shining, something original instead of a rehash of what we're used to...

But they won't because Disney just wants to sell a well-defined product to an existing market (Star Wars fans), but also have it marketable to the Chinese market...

Hey everyone . . . to those older fans who grew up with the OT (I'm one of them), and who are now bashing the PT movies and The Force Awakens, and saying how Disney is corrupting the original storylines that the OT established . . . I've got news for you:

We, the first-generation Star Wars fans (who grew up watching the movies in the 1970s and 1980s) no longer matter anymore. The torch has been passed. The Star Wars films made from 1999 onward have done financially very well, despite the dislike from many of us "original" fans. And the films yet to be released, beginning with The Last Jedi, and likely to continue, if Disney has its way, for decades to come, will also most likely be financially successful. I have met much younger Star Wars fans (born around 1985 and later) who think the newer films are great, even better than the OT films, in many cases.

I no longer fight such opinions, because, well, I've come to realize these newer fans are not necessarily wrong; preferences have simply changed with a newer generation of Star Wars fans.

Personally, I can't stand the SW films of 1999 - 2005; I thought TFA was okay (but not great), and I thought Rogue One was decent. Once the original actors are out of the films (Mark Hamill is essentially the last one, after we see Carrie Fisher's final performance [sniff] in TLJ), I'm done with Star Wars.

But that's just me.

A new generation is enjoying Star Wars now, they are driving the ticket sales, and these new fans like what they see in the newer (non-OT) Star Wars films.

@Jedan Archer said:

Respectfully disagree - nostalgia is clouding your mind...

That's totally fine, the huge contrast on views is what makes Star Wars a fun topic to discuss 👍
However, I think it's important to point out that TPM is itself is almost 20 years old now, so nostalgia clouding minds isn't confined to the OT alone.

Regarding your points though - Obviously there was retconning of the storyline at play throughout the OT, however I don't agree that the retconning of Obi-Wan was "bad writing" at all looking at the OT (and this is the important bit) in self containment.

e.g. Nothing "nobel" about Obi-Wan is made a lie by the Vader twist. I think you need to watch the scene in Obi-Wan's pad in ANH again. They actually focus on him shify-eying several times in that scene. Why? Because they were signposting to us, the viewers, that Obi-Wan wasn't telling Luke the truth. I believe the original reason / storyline was because the reveal was to be that Obi-Wan had killed him (he'd have been even less nobel then 😁). So I'd say that retcon was actually a case of "good" writing - they took an unrevealed, but clearly scripted, plot point from ANH and enhanced it to make it more dramatically appealing.

I think it would be absurd to assume that Obi Wan in the OT was not aware of Leia (we know historically that Leia only suddenly became Lukes sister in Jedi). It would not really make sense (and render Yoda stupid) to assume that Yoda knows, but NEVER tells his last Jedi-buddy Obi Wan

I don't really know where your logic is coming from on this because:-
Obi-Wan: "That boy was our last hope."
Yoda: "No, there is an other..."

i.e. we are literally witness to the moment when Yoda tells Obi-Wan of Leia's existence, however absurd you want to find that. And this is where the important self containment bit I mentioned above comes to play - this is absolutely fine within the OT itself.

"Wow, Obi-Wan didn't know about Leia! I wonder if they'll cover the story of how that came to pass when they make these prequels..."

@northcoast said:

Hey everyone . . . to those older fans who grew up with the OT (I'm one of them), and who are now bashing the PT movies and The Force Awakens, and saying how Disney is corrupting the original storylines that the OT established . . . I've got news for you:

No you haven't.

We, the first-generation Star Wars fans (who grew up watching the movies in the 1970s and 1980s) no longer matter anymore.

What nonsensical idiocy is this?! Are you suggesting that anyone of a certain age range is no longer entitled to have an opinion on the Star Wars franchise and the direction that Disney are going with it?? Do you believe that during a meeting between Disney and Lucasfilm, top executives came to the conclusion that the masses of first-generation fans were of no significance?? Part of the reason this franchise is so big is that its appeal spans all age ranges and continues to do so. It doesn't need new/younger fans to replace old ones.

The torch has been passed. The Star Wars films made from 1999 onward have done financially very well, despite the dislike from many of us "original" fans. And the films yet to be released, beginning with The Last Jedi, and likely to continue, if Disney has its way, for decades to come, will also most likely be financially successful.

You seem to have created an 'us' vs. 'them' scenario. The PT was generally considered medicore at best by the entire fan base, not just by the "original" fans. Decades is pushing it. There's no doubt that Disney will milk this cow dry but at some point, this cow will be dry.

I have met much younger Star Wars fans (born around 1985 and later) who think the newer films are great, even better than the OT films, in many cases.

You need to speak to more Star Wars fans. I think you'll find few in any age bracket that think the PT is better than the OT.

I no longer fight such opinions, because, well, I've come to realize these newer fans are not necessarily wrong; preferences have simply changed with a newer generation of Star Wars fans.

If the next generation wears hats on their feet and shoes on thier heads that's fine with me. But if they try and tell me that TFA is a great sequel to RotJ and doesn't go against what has been previously established within the Star Wars universe then I'm more than ready to point out where they're wrong.

Personally, I can't stand the SW films of 1999 - 2005; I thought TFA was okay (but not great), and I thought Rogue One was decent. Once the original actors are out of the films (Mark Hamill is essentially the last one, after we see Carrie Fisher's final performance [sniff] in TLJ), I'm done with Star Wars.

But that's just me.

As you wish.

A new generation is enjoying Star Wars now, they are driving the ticket sales, and these new fans like what they see in the newer (non-OT) Star Wars films.

If you're referring to the PT then I suggest you look at the scores these movies received on IMDb, RT, here and anywhere else you like. I think you'll find their appeal lacking compared to the OT. If you're referring to TFA and the ST, only time will tell.

FCough--

Thank you for your thorough reply; you certainly put some thought into it.

I stand by what I said concerning older and newer fans. I guess you and I are talking to different people. I've met plenty of "second-generation" fans who consider the OT films quite dated. They prefer the massive CGI effects of the newer films, and the faster action, compared to the fake-looking (to them) plastic model ships of the OT and the slower action sequences of the OT. The OT special effects still blow me away, but I have the nostalgia factor of having seen these special effects sequences when they were still revolutionary and cutting-edge.

And you are certainly entitled to your opinions regarding the superiority of the OT films to the PT; but I'm saying that doesn't matter as far as what Disney is going to do. They've demonstrated with the PT films and TFA that they are charting their own course, and disregarding the Expanded Universe of the original post-ROTJ books. And that strategy is suiting them just fine. Newer fans are snapping up tickets, and older fans are either mostly complaining yet still buying tickets (good for Disney), or not seeing the newer films yet being replaced by the aforementioned younger fans who are buying tickets in their place (again with no significant financial harm to Disney).

As far as the lifespan of the franchise-- when Disney purchased the franchise several years ago, they specifically stated that they were going to release new SW films every few years for as long as they could; and that they would keep going even after Episode 9 was released (so beyond Lucas' well-known and fan-anticipated plan of three supposedly-interconnected trilogies). I see their plan as sort of a "James Bond" thing. That is, they'll keep cranking out films, and will have no qualms about re-casting actors into the same characters, adding new characters, disposing of others, and then coming up with new stories and then essentially re-making all of the films all over again. Sure, at some point, the energy of Star Wars will die out; but I think that is a very long way away.

As others have pointed out, whether we older fans like it or not, make no mistake-- Disney is a machine. They are much more about money than the art, and they know exactly what they are doing-- from studying the demographics of the fan base to counting exactly how many beans (money) they need to spend to bring more cash in for the studio-- and in their minds, if that means killing off beloved characters, or replacing actors as if they were nothing more than cattle (as Hitchcock might say), or twisting original storylines beyond recognition, then, as the Emperor would say:

So be it.

You and I, FCough, are just members of an insignificant band, up against an entire legion of newer fans:)

EDIT: Oh and I realize after re-reading the above that the PT isn't "Disney", but those films also didn't really follow the expectations of the original fans, but still did fine in the theaters.