@movie_nazi said:

It seems that they attempt to venture into the philosophical discussions of creator and created and the dysfunctional relationship between the two. I find the subject utterly fascinating but where they seem to fall short is that these films can't make up their minds whether they truly wanted to explore this subject or whether it just wants to be a run-of-the-mill slasher, watch them get picked off one by one, played out formula of a film. It can't seem to make up its mind what kind of film it is. It teases you by revealing the creators but then falls short of answering any questions that the audience wanst to know (Why did they decide to destroy us?) . It half asses its exploration. It begins on the path and then boom we have a YAWN typical slasher scene reminiscent of Jason in the Friday the 13th series. I feel like I am watching the TV series Lost where you learn very little information in each episode that actually pushes the story along. All they do is pack the films full of fluff like godawful looking CGI monsters and some great special effects with the look of the ship.

Another problem with the franchise is that it is trying to use the same ol' tricks to try and build tension and produce "gotcha!" moments. Boring tropes where everybody gets separated, the guy peeks into the opening egg, and gee no one saw the David/Walter switch coming 100 miles away. The film lacks any semblance or originality whatsoever. Its no wonder it got skewered by critics. The lack of character development was also another huge problem as no one cared who got killed. At least we have somewhat of an attempt at it with Elizabeth Shaw in Prometheus and then she is killed off screen rather unceremoniously.

Alien Covenant I would say is not a bad film, just a bad Alien film. It brings nothing new to the table and rehashes tropes that were done better in the other films. I still say Cameron's Aliens is the best in the series followed by Scott's original effort. It just so disappointing to see them begin down the path of an interesting subject only to let it fizzle out to show you something you have already seen a dozen times in the other films.

Alien Convenant (2017) - 2.5 outta 5 stars

Well I don't know what the heck you expected, but it perfectly continued the arc created in PM. They played it smart by making it about David and AI when everyone thought that this was a human (or Alien) story; sorry but we had that with the first batch of films. And the themes are coherent in these last two films, so I don't understand the reason you think that they can't make up their minds. Scott is doing each film at a time (no trilogy script=make them one-by-one duh) but he's at least making a decent, if not good, set of films. Also, it might sound pretentious, but the questions really are more important than the answers to them. Just a bit of thinking (yes the film demands you to think) and you can decide for yourself why the Engineers wanted to destroy humanity. One idea posited is they have created life on loads of planets and humans happened to just be some disposable jerks. Nothing special about us humans and they need to test their weapons every now and again.

Those tropes you brought up are, well, Alien franchise tropes.... IT'S AN ALIEN MOVIE FFS.

I can't believe that yet another person thinks that they've outsmarted the movie knowing of the switch between Walter and David, when it wasn't meant as a twist in the first place. You are meant to watch it knowing that she is doomed and she cannot escape her fate. Too morbid for your taste?

The lack of any character development is unfortunate, I agree.

Btw Your 5/10 is generous considering your harsh words.

I thought it was pretty weak after Prometheus which was pretty good. I expected more out of it.

@Bloodshot77 said:

I thought it was pretty weak after Prometheus which was pretty good. I expected more out of it.

Prometheus is the better film for sure but still was a little weak.

Covenant was an answer to the critics of Prometheus... A remix of non-Prometheus Alien movies... it did everything that the fanboy critics said Prometheus didn't and in it's failure (relatively) it showed us that Ridley was right with Prometheus, the superior film, aesthetically, commcercially and philosophically...

He should ignore the critics, executives and fans and pursue his art fully... Undoubtably he will produce something more interesting and possibly more profitable that what ends up after pandering to these groups...

The problem with them isn't that they delve into philosophy; it's fine if that's where Ridley Scott wanted to go. The problem is that Sir Scott imposed his ruminations on the Alien series where they weren't wanted or appreciated. That he shifted the series into metaphysical navel-gazing and the nature of man versus machine made the Alien itself an afterthought. And, for no justifiable reason, he decided to not only remove all of the mystery about the Alien itself, but he humanized it and actually made it all less mysterious and interesting.

There are times when you can explain something to death and that's precisely what Ridley Scott did. Oh, and he filled two movies with utterly stupid "scientists" that wouldn't have earned a GED let alone a PH.D.

@Renovatio said:

Covenant was an answer to the critics of Prometheus... A remix of non-Prometheus Alien movies... it did everything that the fanboy critics said Prometheus didn't and in it's failure (relatively) it showed us that Ridley was right with Prometheus, the superior film, aesthetically, commcercially and philosophically...

Could not disagree more. The "fanboy critics" didn't want Ridley to tell them that David the Android was the creator of the Xenomorphs. The "fanboy critics" didn't want an essential re-hash of Alien, albeit with paper-thin characters making stupid decisions (and the same mistakes that were made in Prometheus). The "fanboy critics" didn't want him to completely negate Prometheus by killing Shaw off-screen and spending five minutes with David teaching Walter "fingering."

That Ridley produced such a piss-poor sequel smacks either of utter incompetence or animosity towards the long-suffering fans.

I actually lean towards the former. Ridley can't improve a bad script. His CV is riddled with crappy films that LOOK great but which range from poor to godawful bad (Exodus, The Counselor, Robin Hood, Body of Lies, GI Jane, Hannibal, 1492, etc.) If the scripts suck, as they largely did with Prometheus and Covenant, he has no idea how to make them better. He can make his movies LOOK amazing, but beyond that he has no idea what to do when the script itself doesn't gel. For all his skill as a cinematographer, he has never seemed all that interested in the acting itself. He does his best when he has a good scriptwriter and a top-notch casting agent feeding him the raw materials he needs.

Sorry, but Prometheus would have been a better movie if it had nothing at all to do with Alien. And Alien: Covenant would have been better had it never existed at all. Only a moron thinks that "fanboys" ruin a film; a good filmmaker can still make a great movie that satisfies fans if they have the creativity and skill.

@AlienFanatic said:

There are times when you can explain something to death and that's precisely what Ridley Scott did. Oh, and he filled two movies with utterly stupid "scientists" that wouldn't have earned a GED let alone a PH.D.

Seriously. Piss poor writing that. No imagination whatsoever.

@AlienFanatic said:

... Sorry, but Prometheus would have been a better movie if it had nothing at all to do with Alien. And Alien: Covenant would have been better had it never existed at all. Only a moron thinks that "fanboys" ruin a film; a good filmmaker can still make a great movie that satisfies fans if they have the creativity and skill.

This is where we really disagree... I think Prometheus towers over all Alien films apart from the original 1979 Alien movie... Exactly because Ridley had the courage to do his own thing... I appreciate that opinions differ on this...

Pandering to fans is a real thing. Look at superhero movies. That is basically the way those are made... We can never get something new out of that.

@Renovatio said:

@AlienFanatic said:

... Sorry, but Prometheus would have been a better movie if it had nothing at all to do with Alien. And Alien: Covenant would have been better had it never existed at all. Only a moron thinks that "fanboys" ruin a film; a good filmmaker can still make a great movie that satisfies fans if they have the creativity and skill.

This is where we really disagree... I think Prometheus towers over all Alien films apart from the original 1979 Alien movie... Exactly because Ridley had the courage to do his own thing... I appreciate that opinions differ on this...

Pandering to fans is a real thing. Look at superhero movies. That is basically the way those are made... We can never get something new out of that.

I have to agree with this. Also the new Star Wars films suffer from the same issue. All fan service and tried and true storylines. BOOOORRIIINNNG!!!!!!!

@Renovatio said:

@AlienFanatic said:

... Sorry, but Prometheus would have been a better movie if it had nothing at all to do with Alien. And Alien: Covenant would have been better had it never existed at all. Only a moron thinks that "fanboys" ruin a film; a good filmmaker can still make a great movie that satisfies fans if they have the creativity and skill.

This is where we really disagree... I think Prometheus towers over all Alien films apart from the original 1979 Alien movie... Exactly because Ridley had the courage to do his own thing... I appreciate that opinions differ on this...

Pandering to fans is a real thing. Look at superhero movies. That is basically the way those are made... We can never get something new out of that.

Explain to me why, other than to capitalize on the built-in fan base, Prometheus needed a connection with Alien at all? Scott and Fox used those expectations to produce a film completely detached from the original, pondering hard SF issues that could have been addressed in a film completely apart from his legacy. It's that disingenuous premise--that lie--that led us to the convoluted, conflicted mess that was Prometheus and later Covenant.

And I'm sorry but I've seen episodes of The Twilight Zone that dive more deeply into the nature of man than the silly "Engineers made us and now they're mad at us" premise of Prometheus. I think many people are bedazzled at the visuals and give Scott, Spaights, and Lindeloff far too much credit for a very timeworn story.

@AlienFanatic said:

And I'm sorry but I've seen episodes of The Twilight Zone that dive more deeply into the nature of man than the silly "Engineers made us and now they're mad at us" premise of Prometheus. I think many people are bedazzled at the visuals and give Scott, Spaights, and Lindeloff far too much credit for a very timeworn story.

Oh no man, it goes deeper than that. It's a "We have to destroy this creation of ours because it will eventually destroy us" and then they get destroyed by the creation of their creation. It's a philisophical mind fuck of epic proportions. Plus they are the more simpler ethical questions that the story poses such as is it ethical to create a being for the sole purpose to serve? In a way, its a dig on religion that says there is a god that created us so that we may spend the rest of our lives thanking him for creating us. I am firmly in the camp that likes the direction Scott was going with this. It really made you think about shit. Then they have to go and spoil it with retarded scientists doing cornball slasher movie mistakes. The insipid "Oh noes, let's not all get separated so we can get picked off one by one" rubbish.

You mean like Star Trek TOS "Who Mourns For Adonais?" And a bunch of other stories? Heck, Apollo in that episode hadn't even been involved with creating humans, but he still thought he deserved to be worshipped forever.

@movie_nazi said:

@AlienFanatic said:

And I'm sorry but I've seen episodes of The Twilight Zone that dive more deeply into the nature of man than the silly "Engineers made us and now they're mad at us" premise of Prometheus. I think many people are bedazzled at the visuals and give Scott, Spaights, and Lindeloff far too much credit for a very timeworn story.

Oh no man, it goes deeper than that. It's a "We have to destroy this creation of ours because it will eventually destroy us" and then they get destroyed by the creation of their creation. It's a philisophical mind fuck of epic proportions. Plus they are the more simpler ethical questions that the story poses such as is it ethical to create a being for the sole purpose to serve? In a way, its a dig on religion that says there is a god that created us so that we may spend the rest of our lives thanking him for creating us. I am firmly in the camp that likes the direction Scott was going with this. It really made you think about shit. Then they have to go and spoil it with retarded scientists doing cornball slasher movie mistakes. The insipid "Oh noes, let's not all get separated so we can get picked off one by one" rubbish.

But it's a haphazard, undisciplined jumble of ideas masquerading as a "meaningful" whole. If you wish, you could peel it all back to why the god of the Bible world create man in his image. Or why men would write a work of fiction, call it the Bible, and create a god of capriciousness and hostility who would make his children either earn his love or utterly annihilate them.

This is why I get so heated when people ramble about philosophy, especially in film. It's all such academic masturbation. And for a man in his eighties, Scott has precious little to say. To paraphrase a much less introspective movie, Jurassic Park...

Engineers created man Engineers (wish to) destroy man Man creates Androids Androids destroy man Androids inherit the Earth.

Prometheus is the cotton candy of film. Pretty, looks substantial, but it's not filling, lacks substance, and you really wish you'd had a steak instead.

@AlienFanatic said:

... Explain to me why, other than to capitalize on the built-in fan base, Prometheus needed a connection with Alien at all? Scott and Fox used those expectations to produce a film completely detached from the original, pondering hard SF issues that could have been addressed in a film completely apart from his legacy. It's that disingenuous premise--that lie--that led us to the convoluted, conflicted mess that was Prometheus and later Covenant.

...

Commerce... Scott needed to use the Alien connection to get Fox to fund the movie... I think he propably would have liked to keep the film separate, but I can't see him getting the budget to do that these days... I certainly agree that the film would have been even stronger without the Alien connection...

Thematically, Prometheus has more in common with BladeRunner than Alien... The juxtaposition of David and Shaw is at the centre of the film... An android that is fully aware of the nature of it's creation, next to a human who is searching for these answers...

@AlienFanatic said:

Prometheus is the cotton candy of film. Pretty, looks substantial, but it's not filling, lacks substance, and you really wish you'd had a steak instead.

Prometheus is not without its problems. I quote myself when asked in the theater lobby directly after watching it when asked, "So, what'd ya think?" to which I literally said, "Meh". As previously stated the biggest problem with Prometheus is how they sloppily turned it into a slasher flick. Yes, you want aliens killing people but what scientist in their right mind removes his helmet in a foreign environment? Or reach out to pet a snake? They ruined it with a bunch of stupid shit like that. Prometheus ultimately lacked innovation in storytelling and fell into the trap of "its just a movie" to explain away how scientists could make moronic mistakes, repeatedly and the trend continued in Covenant.