My reaction to the film is a little different from yours. I thought it was superb. I haven't been through a divorce so it's not an experience I relate to, but it just seemed incredibly authentic and it explains a lot. I've always wondered why couples that divorce fight each other so hard for custody when they both should be working together to do what's right for the child. No matter how much they hate each other. It's the child's well being that should be most important to them rather than one upping each other. And this film really helped me understand why they behave this way. One line that Adam Driver said: "He has to know that I fought for him!". It was dialogue like that that really articulated things very well.

The whole film was just incredibly well written and acted. It showed the process of the lawyers corrupting the couple's originally amicable intentions. I wasn't bored for a second but captivated so much that the film shot to the top of my 2019 list.

I am curious by what you meant by this line, I didn't really understand it:

the film comes off as all-but-evil to me and belays the forces at work to elevate secondary issues at the cost of primary responsibilities.

There didn't seem to be anything evil about the film. And it didn't seem to be encouraging anything. Just discouraging the use of lawyers in divorce. You said in the other thread that it's quite painful. But if it elicited that kind of feeling in you then surely that's an indication of how effective the film is. Surely that wouldn't be reason to criticize the film. Isn't that the kind of thing that art is supposed to do? I would imagine that some people who have been through divorce would find the film therapeutic. And yeah, there are some that wouldn't want to put themselves through those kind of feelings as a form of entertainment and so would see the film as just a big downer. But that doesn't mean it's a bad or unworthy film.

It's been a long time since I posted this so some of my own thinking might be lost to the fog of time. As a piece of art, I can give the filmmakers and actors credit for doing a good job. Even all this time later, I can appreciate the acting and 'moods' of the film even if I can't remember the details. And as far as making this or any other film, hey, if you can get it made good for you.

I was just more surprised at the audience's rating of 81%. Anticeptically, I can see assessing the film at arm's length and appreciating what was done; experientially I can't imagine how anyone would rate this film 81%. So that was the crux of this post.

As to the "all-but-evil" comment I made, I guess it is the tragedy of two adults (fully formed, the film presumes) who keep getting so close but failing at maturity. "Elevating secondary issues at the cost of primary responsibilities" to me is adults acting like children, instead of--well--adults.

BTW, as a side note, it's funny to me they choose to call this film "Marriage Story" and not Divorce Story or Custody of the Kids Story, which I think belies a fundamental flaw so many see with marriage, parenting and divorce. The whole concept of "prioritizing the kids" is mythology, as without prioritizing the marriage the kids are in the wind. Granted, this is from my own experience. This is real life stuff for me, and as I counsel people I always encourage them to 1) work on themselves; 2) work on their marriage; 3) work on their parenting in that order. Each one feeds the next. I could go on, but that might be more than you bargained for already. :)

Last thought: that our culture (I say that loosely) would be so excited to celebrate films like this or "The Kids Are All Right" (which, admittedly I have not seen) gives me little hope for the future of committed marriage relationships at large.

OK, I lied, one last last thought: as far as the adversarial framework of our divorce system in the US, I am really intrigued by the Scandinavian model, which seems to disincentivize divorce-for-profit and alimony as retribution. I believe the documentary is called "Divorce Corp" and it uncovers many of the themes of Marriage Story while offering clear-eyed solutions.

@Daddie0 said:

As to the "all-but-evil" comment I made, I guess it is the tragedy of two adults (fully formed, the film presumes) who keep getting so close but failing at maturity. "Elevating secondary issues at the cost of primary responsibilities" to me is adults acting like children, instead of--well--adults.

I don't see how that makes the film evil though. It's portraying people realistically. And the film blames the lawyers for manipulating them into behaving that way. The situation gets away from them and they behave more and more unreasonably, losing sight of what's really important. The film certainly isn't encouraging this behavior or representing any of these people as role models.

BTW, as a side note, it's funny to me they choose to call this film "Marriage Story" and not Divorce Story or Custody of the Kids Story, which I think belies a fundamental flaw so many see with marriage, parenting and divorce.

I always saw the title as being sardonic. I liked the title, I think Divorce Story would be way too literal.

The whole concept of "prioritizing the kids" is mythology, as without prioritizing the marriage the kids are in the wind. Granted, this is from my own experience. This is real life stuff for me, and as I counsel people I always encourage them to 1) work on themselves; 2) work on their marriage; 3) work on their parenting in that order. Each one feeds the next. I could go on, but that might be more than you bargained for already. :)

I think that makes a lot of sense. Are you a marriage counselor?

Last thought: that our culture (I say that loosely) would be so excited to celebrate films like this or "The Kids Are All Right" (which, admittedly I have not seen) gives me little hope for the future of committed marriage relationships at large.

OK, I lied, one last last thought: as far as the adversarial framework of our divorce system in the US, I am really intrigued by the Scandinavian model, which seems to disincentivize divorce-for-profit and alimony as retribution. I believe the documentary is called "Divorce Corp" and it uncovers many of the themes of Marriage Story while offering clear-eyed solutions.

I think culture should celebrate films that tell it as it is. I'd much rather they celebrate this than something like Twilight. These sort of films would encourage people to have more realistic expectations out of life. And not be surprised if everything doesn't turn out exactly like some fairy tale movie. I don't think it would stop people getting married just as films about alcoholism don't stop people drinking.

Divorce Corp does sound interesting. I'll probably give that a look some time.

@JustinJackFlash said:

sardonic.

Great word! I had to look it up. And as I read the definition, I think it's that posture that makes me not like this film, good as it is for all the reasons and more than you point out. :)

@JustinJackFlash said:

I think that makes a lot of sense. Are you a marriage counselor?

I'm not a marriage counselor, per se, but I've done quite a bit of marriage counseling in an official capacity, so this is more practice than theory for me.

@JustinJackFlash said:

Divorce Corp does sound interesting. I'll probably give that a look some time.

I can't recommend it highly enough. It's a doc, but unlike some/most, rather than just outlining and decrying the problem (which so many do well), they also turn in the last act to "a better way" and practical models and systemic alternatives. I'm not sure anyone is listening or has the will to make such changes. I have seen couples chart that course of mutual respect, especially if they keep lawyers out or hire one together...but most get sucked so quickly into an adversarial model whether by their own hurt/vitriol/legitimate needs, or their lawyers coaxing, who have a financial interest in the fighting lasting as long as possible.

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on Divorce Corp if you watch it, whether in this thread or on one for that film. Last thought for now: of course, as you point out, I'm being unfair to Marriage Story by expecting a fiction film to end with clear-eyed solutions, although I know--for some more so than for me--this film _does _end on _some _mildly hopeful notes.

Thanks for the thoughtful conversation...it's working. :)

@mechajutaro said:

It makes for a superb cautionary tale, if one hasn't yet married. Be careful who you wife(or husband)up, and treat it not just like a romantic fling, but the investment that it is. A poorly chosen partner will bring havoc to your life

The thing is I don't actually think they were wrong for each other. I thought they actually seemed quite suited to each other and they still got on even after separating, until the lawyers entered the equation. And there were things that alluded to this throughout the divorce procedure. The one particular moment I remember was when they were having their joint meeting with their lawyers and he couldn't decide what to eat and through the chaos of the meeting she took the menu off him and chose for him which he was perfectly happy with. It was a moment of the naturalness they used to have (and was still there) before they got back to being hostile again. It was really well done and demonstrated something in a subtle way.

I think it was more that they were just starting to want different things and their wants started to clash. Under different circumstances I think their relationship would have worked.

Tad late to the conversation, but writing it in case there's some late comers on the fence whether to watch Marriage Story or not.

For me personally the movie really made a great impression, not because I've been through a divorce, but because I found so many things to relate to with it after spending 20y in a relationship - so confirming Daddie0's original suspicion about the high rating a bit. Overall I think that the movie captured quite a bit of the emotional Rollercoaster that is inevitable in a lengthy relationship and how reasonable adults in the end are just imperfect human beings.

So while I definitely would not recommend this as a easy weekend flick to anybody, I do think it deserves the high ratings and critic reviews it has received, and hence it should be on one's watchlist if they appreciate a well written and superbly acted movie on a really tough subject.