Discuss Black Swan
Discuss → Movies → Black Swan → Content Issues
Still, this really needs horror added as a genre
posted by modokbabySTAFFMOD on September 28, 2017 at 1:40 AM
I know this issue has already been raised by someone else and dismissed, I'm just raising it again in hopes of it being addressed by someone who sees things differently, or is open to reconsidering if presented with a compelling case. I know there's been some disagreement about whether Black Swan should count as a horror movie, but I would challenge anyone to present a definition of horror that Black Swan does not meet, unless that definition precludes somewhat prestigious Oscar nominees.
I think the real issue is not whether or not horror needs to be a part of Black Swan's identity, but whether Black Swan is considered part of horror's identity, which I would say it unquestionably is. It frequently comes up in discussions of greatest horror movies of the 21st century, horror movies that have won Oscars, etc. -- any such conversation that leaves it out feels incomplete. It may have been shrewdly un-horror in the way it was marketed during its whole release cycle (which paid off with awards prestige), but the horror context really is its lasting legacy.
Here is a sample of lists that include Black Swan, and would feel incomplete without it: http://theplaylist.net/50-best-horror-movies-21st-century-far-20161027/5/ http://screencrush.com/best-horror-movies/ http://www.vulture.com/2017/09/the-best-female-led-horror-films-of-all-time.html http://storiesforghosts.com/horror-movies-academy-awards-complete-list/
I know its categorization here doesn't prevent it from being discussed in that context, I just think there are practical benefits to its listing better reflecting that identity. For example, it drives me crazy that if I point someone to the most popular horror films (filtered by genre) on letterboxd, Black Swan is conspicuously absent. If Rosemary's Baby can have Drama, Mystery and Horror all listed, I don't see why Black Swan should not have Drama, Thriller and Horror.
Reply by modokbaby
on June 10, 2018 at 2:04 AM
Wanted to throw in some supplementary links that seem to have popped up since my initial post. (Black Swan was frequently discussed as a precedent for Get Out’s Oscar run, and I just saw Natalie Portman invoked in an article this week about Toni Collette’s awards chances for the very horror-forward Hereditary.) Hope this isn’t too annoyingly pedantic — I just thought I better be thorough since it’s a question already considered open and shut!
https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1716249/the-best-horror-movies-of-the-21st-century-so-far?story_page=8 https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/jaws-get-6-horror-films-ever-nominated-oscars-best-picture-1088677/item/exorcist-1974-6-horror-movies-nominated-best-picture-1088674 https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-20-scariest-horror-movies-of-the-last-decade-1778779327 http://www.ign.com/lists/100-best-horror-movies (#98)
Reply by Banana
on June 24, 2018 at 7:44 PM
I already voiced my personal opinion... and the genres are pretty consistent:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0947798/
http://www.foxsearchlight.com/blackswan/
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/black_swan_2010/
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=blackswan.htm
Reply by modokbaby
on June 24, 2018 at 10:13 PM
I understand that you already voiced your personal opinion, which puts me on very tenuous grounds trying to relitigate it. I appreciate you even taking the time to assemble those links to reaffirm your stance. At the risk of kicking a dead horse (because I certainly don’t presume that this is an open ended discussion on which we have equal footing, you being a mod who’s made countless genre determinations and me being a random user for whom this one very specific issue has somehow become a minor personal passion)...
could it not be that IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes and Box Office Mojo simply followed the lead of Fox Searchlight, who had pragmatic reasons to avoid the genre stigma for a film they were positioning for a year-end Oscar run, and have had relatively little practical reason to revisit the subject in the months and years since? (The shrewdness of its un-horror public face was even discussed at the time, as in this contemporaneous thinkpiece: https://www.cinemablend.com/new/Black-Swan-Greatest-Trick-Was-Convincing-Oscar-It-Isn-t-Horror-23334.html). I would be surprised if those sites’ editors are actively, thoughtfully reconsidering the subjective qualities of the kind of stats they typically already have in their database for any studio release before they’ve even screened for press/festivals.
I obviously don’t know as well as you how TMDb differs from those sites, but my hope was that the engaged user base and somewhat more ‘open source’ format made it more sensitive to the living nature of films’ identities and shifting reputations, while Letterboxd (deriving its basic stats from TMDb of course) is anecdotally where I’ve felt the impact of genre designations the most on a practical, functional level. I know this must seem like the most tedious excercise in meaningless pedantry, but I really did start out thinking it was just a small thing that would improve the user experience!
Of course, it’s taken on more personal investment as I’ve thought about it, like “at what point does a film’s post-awards life outweigh one Oscar season’s shrewdly disingenuous marketing campaign? Never?” BUT as you’ll attest to, it is subjective and some people genuinely don’t think it’s horror. That’s fair. Maybe the next decade will bear me out and someday people will be surprised there was ever any doubt that it was horror, or the opposite, or maybe the ability to care about something so small will be a distant, sweet memory!
In the meantime, I do wish there was room in the TMDb/Letterboxd listings for the not insignificant portion of viewers who do think of it in that way, alongside the current genres. But I’ve more than said my piece, and I’ll drop it now, unless anyone else comes along down the line and deems it worth reconsidering. Though, again, I do understand that your response is effectively the only one needed, and I do respect the weight it carries. I just had to exorcise this rhetorical demon, I guess. Thanks a lot for responding!