@cswood said:

I'm convinced the people who make this stuff don't actually talk to black people before they make these things. Some of us don't see ourselves as perpetual slaves or oppressed victims. But I guess that's how Hollywood sees black people. I will be surprised if this lasts more than 1 season.

Yeah, but Jordan Peele...oh, nevermind. Go on.

Jordan Peele didn't talk to Jordan Peele before maknig this Jordan Peele show.

@UrielF said:

Jordan Peele didn't talk to Jordan Peele before maknig this Jordan Peele show.

Right?! FFS.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@cswood said:

I'm convinced the people who make this stuff don't actually talk to black people before they make these things. Some of us don't see ourselves as perpetual slaves or oppressed victims. But I guess that's how Hollywood sees black people. I will be surprised if this lasts more than 1 season.

Yeah, but Jordan Peele...oh, nevermind. Go on.

Oh yeah, Jordan Peele, the half white guy married to a white woman with a 75% white baby who refuses to cast white people in the leads of his movies, yeah that's the last guy whose opinion on race issues I want to hear. He co-created a decent comedy sketch show and one pretty good horror movie, everything else he's done has been mediocre at best.

Anyway, decided to watch the first episode of the show and it wasn't terrible. It was a hell of a lot better when it wasn't talking about racism that's for sure. If they just focus on the supernatural/horror element and not how all white people hate black people I might actually stick with it.

But still, and I will reiterate this since Hollywood liberals are constantly telling me how important voices like mine are, it would be nice to see a story with black characters that doesn't involve racism/drugs/gangs/police brutality/music. There's more to black people than those things.

@cswood said:

it would be nice to see a story with black characters that doesn't involve racism/drugs/gangs/police brutality/music. There's more to black people than those things.

With this I agree.

@Invidia said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@cswood said:

it would be nice to see a story with black characters that doesn't involve racism/drugs/gangs/police brutality/music. There's more to black people than those things.

And how REALISTIC would it be to have no RACISM being mentioned there in the 1950's???

Great point. The joke about being tired of racism is white supremacists keep doing it, but people get tired of drawing attention to it, as if that's harder than having to deal with it.

@Invidia said:

Also don't recall having seen any DRUG use or GANGS being mentioned in this show???

So that also narrows the complaints you have down from 5 to just 3 issues???

Yes, that's one of the good things about it.

@Invidia said:

And how REALISTIC would it be to have no RACISM being mentioned there in the 1950's???

That's why it shouldn't have been set in the 1950s. I realize it's based on a book (which I know nothing about) but I'm tired of stories centered around black people living in the far past. I watched this show because of the horror aspect and that only came into play at the very beginning and very end, which were the only times I was really engaged in the show. The moment those monsters started tearing apart the cops I literally sat up and said "NOW you have my attention!" That scene should have come 20 minutes earlier.

As long as they focus on the horror/supernatural aspect and don't make every other conversation about racism I will continue to watch.

@mechajutaro said:

But still, and I will reiterate this since Hollywood liberals are constantly telling me how important voices like mine are, it would be nice to see a story with black characters that doesn't involve racism/drugs/gangs/police brutality/music. There's more to black people than those things

along with bankruptcy once The League forces these poor guys into retirement,

A) professional athletes should never end up bankrupt, but I put more of the responsibility on the players themselves to manage the money they made better. American ideology is about rugged individual responsibility, not some bigger authority doing things for people. Anyone making six or seven figures to play a game can afford a financial advisor to ensure they don't blow it all.

B) "League forces them into retirement" - I'm not following that. There comes a point when a body can't perform at the pro level anymore. Age happens to all of us. If a guy can still play, he's likely to keep playing. When he just can't do it anymore, it's time to call it a career. Nothing forced here (for most, please don't site exceptions as evidence of forcing; all exceptions prove is that there is a norm, and it's the norm to which I'm referring here).

effectively throwing them away like garbage in exchange for years of loyal, blood-soaked service.

I kind of agree with that. I mean, as I said, each individual player should manage the money he earns better; burdening the league with pension liability makes it tough on the new players coming in. Nevertheless, the players' association should have more teeth and fight better for its members.

There's a story that neither ESPN nor Hollywood has any desire to tell in great detail

Yeah. I'd say Concussion did a pretty good job of telling some of the story. Yes, I agree, your idea reaches far beyond just those players who suffered CTE; I'm just suggesting here that "a story about retired players and how the league washes their hands of them" is on full display in this movie, uncomfortably (and rightly) so.

@mechajutaro said:

But still, and I will reiterate this since Hollywood liberals are constantly telling me how important voices like mine are, it would be nice to see a story with black characters that doesn't involve racism/drugs/gangs/police brutality/music. There's more to black people than those things

Damn straight. There's stardom in the fields of basketball and football as well, along with bankruptcy once The League forces these poor guys into retirement, effectively throwing them away like garbage in exchange for years of loyal, blood-soaked service. There's a story that neither ESPN nor Hollywood has any desire to tell in great detail

Sure, but I was thinking more along the lines of "hey look, this person discovered time travel and ends up altering history" or "this person is framed for murder and must prove their innocence" or "this person knows how to bring dead people back to life and it backfires horribly" but the characters just happen to be black. But I would certainly settle for more good stories where a black guy is shown to be a loving father.

On a separate topic, can anyone tell me what was up with the scene where the one guy is getting a BJ from a (seemingly) very young boy? The main character sees it and doesn't acknowledge it at all, it was so weird. What was the point of that?

@cswood said:

I was thinking more along the lines of "hey look, this person discovered time travel and ends up altering history" or "this person is framed for murder and must prove their innocence" or "this person knows how to bring dead people back to life and it backfires horribly" but the characters just happen to be black.

I much prefer this approach myself, but I do think that this show may be an eye-opener to some people who might know how bad things were further back, but have no idea about how rough things were in the 50s. I loved that the monsters, when they turned up, weren't much more scary that the police and townspeople had been to the group.

@mechajutaro said:

Fairly certain we've all seen newsreels, Spike Lee's Malcolm X(the majority of which's events take place in the 50s), and The Help.

Definitely not here in the UK. Spike Lee is the province of film fans for the most part, and though The Help was reasonably popular it isn't one that "everyone" has seen. Some of the stuff came as a shock to both Mme and Mlle LeMarchand. Though not as much of a shock as the Shoggoths did to Mlle LeMarchand, who must have been paying more attention to her phone's screen when we watched the trailer for LC .

@mechajutaro said:

I much prefer this approach myself, but I do think that this show may be an eye-opener to some people who might know how bad things were further back, but have no idea about how rough things were in the 50s

Fairly certain we've all seen newsreels, Spike Lee's Malcolm X(the majority of which's events take place in the 50s), and The Help. Though the later takes place in '63, the events which the characters are all recounting take place much earlier, in the 50s. I'm not suggesting that we forget the past,nonetheless we lately seem hellbent on mining these events for high drama, out of some dunderheaded belief that this will remedy our present-day struggles

The intent is humane. I'm just not convinced that modern ills like stupendously high murder rates in our ghettos, or our police departments failing to screen candidates thoroughly(so much so, that it's not unheard of for a brute with a badge to put his entire body weight on a handcuffed man's neck)are going to create a societal revolution on our behalf. All while we citizens have more interest in watching TV than we do actual activism

More or less. There are decades worth of "racism is bad" movies to watch just like there are decades worth of "Germans really didn't like Jews in the 30s and 40s" movies. I get it, you get it, we get it. It's not nearly as bad now as it was then despite the media trying desperately to paint it that way. Still, when I sit down to watch a movie or TV show I want to escape contemporary problems unless it's a well crafted allegory like Star Trek used to do.

Hollywood just seems intent on milking black people for their negative history whereas you rarely see any positive historical stories told about black people unless it's about slavery/racism. Almost as if Hollywood doesn't really see black people beyond their skin color.

Planning to watch episode 2 of LC tonight so I am hoping the show just sticks to the horror/supernatural aspect and puts the racism stuff in the backseat. I find it much more entertaining seeing black characters portrayed as heroes and good fathers than as oppressed victims living in fear of the white man.

@cswood said:

More or less. There are decades worth of "racism is bad" movies to watch just like there are decades worth of "Germans really didn't like Jews in the 30s and 40s" movies. I get it, you get it, we get it. It's not nearly as bad now as it was then despite the media trying desperately to paint it that way.

You'd be amazed at how many younger people know very little (if anything) about The Holocaust. (Do they sleep through history?). Perhaps less amazed that people that there are still people who think it was all a hoax. IIRC I encountered one on IMDb who went a bit quiet when it was pointed out to him that the guy he was quoting as proof absolute that The Holocaust never happened had defected to the side of history.

I do think that it is important to remember the bad things in history, or TPTB will try to repeat the mistakes of the past thinking we won't notice. On both sides of the Atlantic those in power seem to be taking the "Early Warning Signs of Fascism" as a road map rather than an admonition.

You'll be glad to know that some Jewish people agree with you, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLNa-ocdryY

@cswood said:

Hollywood just seems intent on milking black people for their negative history whereas you rarely see any positive historical stories told about black people unless it's about slavery/racism. Almost as if Hollywood doesn't really see black people beyond their skin color.

Planning to watch episode 2 of LC tonight so I am hoping the show just sticks to the horror/supernatural aspect and puts the racism stuff in the backseat. I find it much more entertaining seeing black characters portrayed as heroes and good fathers than as oppressed victims living in fear of the white man.

When there are, people then complain that there are "too many blacks" in power their shows - e.g. Discovery, Picard and Lower Decks - so maybe we still have a way to go!

I suspect you're SOL with LC Episode 2; though I won't know for a while, as the ladies of the house are still a little shell-shocked after the first episode.

@mechajutaro said:

A's grievance didn't seem to be with the ship captain's color, gender, or the fact that she was captain. He wasn't thrilled with the way in which the target of their condescension(a white guy, in this case) was depicted. This isn't dissimilar to the objections raised by The NAACP, over the depiction of blacks as silly, childish, and buffoon-like in movies of 30s and 40s, such as Stephinfetchit or The Crows(who were clearly racist caricatures of black Americans)in Dumbo. If such treatment is distasteful when applied to one population, it's equally distasteful when applied to all of the others

Would s/he have even mentioned this if both characters had been white dudes? It seems to be fairly common for older military officers to refer to younger subordinates as "son". Why is it only called out when the ranking officer is a black lady?

@mechajutaro said:

In any event, what you just supplied was an anecdote, not hard data. If there are statistics out there which indicate a groundswell of resentment among white viewers aimed at non-white characters who are depicted in positions of leadership, do share. Such sights still remain so rare on US and British TV, I'm more inclined to believe that it's the execs who are constrained by prejudice, rather than the audience

There's a link to a research paper that you may be able to access here: http://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/internet-racism/ , though that is mainly on "general" online racism. I'm not convinced that anyone has seen the value in the precise sort of study you suggest, but all one has to do is visit any board for a show with such a character to find complaints.

I do think that the OP may as well give up on the show now, as I'm fairly certain that its raison d'etre is to be a story about racism with Lovecraftian trappings. Something that HPL would have hated (unless he was waiting for a "happy ending" when the uppity n***ers got their comeuppance and the supremacy of the white man was shown to be inviolate).

There seem to have been some edits since I started typing!

@mechajutaro - I don't think that it's anything like 50%, but there is a vocal presence who really aren't keen on non-white lead characters. Gold star for realising it's not only black actors who are under-represented, though. If Henry Golding (you reminded me of him) is the next Bond (there are rumours), you'll get plenty of examples of people being racist but not 'fessing up to it. It was bad enough when they cast a blonde white dude - imagine if they cast someone who looks like Golding!

@M.LeMarchand said:

You'd be amazed at how many younger people know very little (if anything) about The Holocaust. (Do they sleep through history?). Perhaps less amazed that people that there are still people who think it was all a hoax. IIRC I encountered one on IMDb who went a bit quiet when it was pointed out to him that the guy he was quoting as proof absolute that The Holocaust never happened had defected to the side of history.

I do think that it is important to remember the bad things in history, or TPTB will try to repeat the mistakes of the past thinking we won't notice. On both sides of the Atlantic those in power seem to be taking the "Early Warning Signs of Fascism" as a road map rather than an admonition.

You'll be glad to know that some Jewish people agree with you, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLNa-ocdryY

That's a schooling problem, especially public schools. People should not be getting their history from movies. Granted LC has peppered in some facts about life under Jim Crow, still, it's a show about monsters and magic spells, I wouldn't want Harry Potter to teach me about the Holocaust.

Just speaking from person experience I know what I know about history because I've always had a desire to learn history and seek out and find knowledge that was not taught to me in school. I mean do you think schools are going to teach people about how awful Woodrow Wilson or Margaret Sanger were?

@M.LeMarchand said:

@cswood said:

Hollywood just seems intent on milking black people for their negative history whereas you rarely see any positive historical stories told about black people unless it's about slavery/racism. Almost as if Hollywood doesn't really see black people beyond their skin color.

Planning to watch episode 2 of LC tonight so I am hoping the show just sticks to the horror/supernatural aspect and puts the racism stuff in the backseat. I find it much more entertaining seeing black characters portrayed as heroes and good fathers than as oppressed victims living in fear of the white man.

When there are, people then complain that there are "too many blacks" in power their shows - e.g. Discovery, Picard and Lower Decks - so maybe we still have a way to go!

I disagree strongly with that last statement, that's a falsehood used to protect the awful writing of those shows, just like blaming "toxic fans" for attacking the Disney Star Wars movies because they had women/black/asian people instead of the total crap writing and destruction of classic characters. Discovery and Picard were crap, but one had a (HIGHLY unlikeable) black woman as the lead and the other had an ambiguously gay black alcoholic so we can't criticize it? Look how they character assassinated Spock and Picard and one of the most popular female characters in Star Trek 7 of 9 by turning her into a bitter old alcohol instead of using her vast Borg knowledge to be a top scientist, THAT'S why fans hated it.

DS9 is one of my biggest inspirations in my life, it had a black captain who was a single father as well as several well written female characters, TNG had LaForge and Worf (black actor), Voyager had Tuvok (black actor) and a female captain, Enterprise had Mayweather and Hoshi (black and asian actors), "too many blacks" or "too many women" wasn't the complaint from fans, it was the horse-sheet writing and total disregard for canon. But the media protects SJW shows because they care more about the message than the content, so much that they laud a crap movie like Captain Marvel at the expense of Wonder Woman because Wonder Woman wasn't nearly as SJW as Captain Marvel.

Meanwhile you have The Expanse, arguably the most diverse sci-fi show I've ever seen with some of the best sci-fi writing I've ever seen, and the media doesn't talk about it because it's not an SJW fest and the central character is a white guy. The Orville also has great diverse characters but it's competition for Discovery so the media poops on it.