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Reported Problem for Kang-ho Song
posted by Geert JanSTAFFMOD on February 21, 2017 at 3:15 PM
Item: Kang-ho Song
Language: en
Type of Problem: Incorrect_content
Extra Details: The TMDb guidelines aren't clear on this, but looking at most other Korean names on the site, it seems the "[family name] [given name]" order is used.
So in this case it should be "Song Kang-ho" then.
Reply by Geert Jan
on March 4, 2017 at 2:43 AM
I think the default would be to capitalize each name, except in East Asian transliterations? At least Korean and Chinese, I'm not sure how it would work for Japanese, I can't recall seeing any hyphenated Japanese names.
Edit: And in the case of transliterated names the rule would be that hyphenated names are capitalized as one single name, without a capital letter after the hyphen.
Reply by Marr 🇳🇱
on March 4, 2017 at 4:01 AM
Hey Guys. Do these rules also Apply for Japanse. Because when i check the Japanse anime sites they list the character names with Japanse characters and romanized. Or maybe it's only the character names they play...
But i think they always followed the given/family name style (i.e. western order). Like Yui Horie. (Or is Yui her family name. I am never quite sure)
I don't mean databases like this. :p
Reply by thirstyhippo
on March 4, 2017 at 5:01 AM
Thank you banana_girl! I think you may want to add that the Japanese usually use Western name order too, unless you are editing historical pre-Meiji-era character names in historical taiga drama/films or anime.
There isn't a lot of exceptions to the rule for Asian names nowadays except for Asian-Americans without English first names (e.g. Ki Hong Lee) who choose to use the Western order. If you see an English first name (yes even weird ones like Alien) just think Donnie Yen and follow Western order. If you see surnames like Park or Chan with hyphenated names (xxxx-xxxx), stick to East-Asian order.
This is an inconsistency that has bugged me for a while. Song Kang Ho or Song Kang-ho are what I'm used to stylistically in documents and Asian newspapers. Capitalised name after hyphen looks awfully strange and it looks like a style cut and copied from Asianwiki. I leave this to the style experts here.
Another problem I have now is with Korean words like hyun/hyeon, jun/jeon, but I think most people here follow Wikipedia naming for now.
There are also databases like Asianwiki, D-addicts wiki, HKMDB or language-specific portals and databases like Douban/Naver/Daum/Eiga/Yahooæ˜ ç”»/tvdrama-db etc which are much better sources of info than IMDb when it comes to Asian titles.
Reply by sp1ti
on March 4, 2017 at 6:08 AM
Have you guys even talked to Travis yet
? His guideline from a few years ago was to enter the names like IMDb... I don't think it's realistic to update 1000s of people AND plot overviews (best case would be half right half wrong). It also shouldn't be done before localizations are implemented because the "real" names are only AKAs at best.
It should be a preference to choose when one wants to be an international "database". Until we can localize they should for consistencies sake follow the same logic. Otherwise you are confronted with a name and have to guess how to decipher it and no one can be asked to be well versed in all the different countries this applies to.
Sure but they are not always more complete than IMDb. Quite a few of them also don't carry foreign content and thus they make sense within their universe. HKMDB and Asianwiki of this list feature the Western name order btw....
Not sure if any of the wiki links I've posted were read but please no. Also which anime sites do you refer to because the only one doing it this way everywhere is anidb. MAL has commas between the names but still present the names reversed in Google or plot overviews. ANN (primary source on TVDB), Anilist, Kitsu, Anime-planet, Wikipedia etc. all don't.
There are not only East Asian countries this applies to... just have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_name#Eastern_name_order. Just listing two is not specific enough anyways.
As I mentioned in the anime issue thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization If you really want to go over all the names you might as well make them consistent. Currently it's done in all kinds of ways. I know that Korean names can also be written differently but what I'm most aware of is Japanese. Pretty much every practice ends up on TMDB but other content sites also vary from eachother...
Reply by Marr 🇳🇱
on March 4, 2017 at 6:28 AM
I meant the anime websites themselves, like idolmaster or god eater. But it's only the character names that are also romanised (western order) on those, I'm confused if I ever actually saw the voice actor's name also listed romanised.
Reply by Banana
on March 4, 2017 at 6:34 AM
@geertjan @thirstyhippo thank you!!!!
No, not "officially officially" I guess, but even though we didn't have written guidelines yet, [family name] [given name] has been used for a while now. We're also correcting a lot of original titles i.e. distancing ourselves from IMDb.
Yup. We'll have do some research.
But at least a few countries Wikipedia list don't really use the Eastern name order.
Reply by Yukabacera
on March 4, 2017 at 6:34 AM
It's exactly because of this mentality I have to make fifty-thousand duplicate reports here on TMDB every week. IMDB may win out by sheer amount of data, but TONS of it is simply plain wrong. IMDB does so many illogical things and this name order thing is just one of several.
Also, HKMDB doesn't use the western name order. Where'd you get that from? Asianwiki, as far as I can see, doesn't seem to be too consistent and uses both orders. I just picked a random Korean film that I know of: http://asianwiki.com/The_Deep_Blue_Night
The director is listed with the Korean order, but then the writer uses the Western order. Two of the actors (pretty famous actors as well) are in the Korean order, and then the next two down the list are in the Western order.
Reply by sp1ti
on March 4, 2017 at 7:06 AM
But apply to the "do 10 minutes of research" contribution exception you plan to include.
Was it really? Because this report had the name locked the other way around ([...] It was correct until a moderator changed it last summer. [...]). And if it was I question why this was done in "secret" then (with the assumption everyone was going along with what was written in the wiki).
Btw. this is the post by Travis https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/5347e2890e0a265c7d00131d:
"For people, we expect everything to be in english. Names, and biographies. People will be getting some translatable fields much like movies and at that time, we'll support having different names. With regards to the name format, this has not really been brought up. I would assume we would stay with whatever IMDb is doing."
My bad, figured the name wrong
.
I'm not sure how the duplicates are to blame on IMDB
. Yes they sometimes have them but it's not as bad as you make it out to be... I'm quite certain that 90% of your reports boil down to a TMDB design issue; laggy dropdown and up until maybe 2 years ago the shitty cache (newly created people didn't show up immediately for use so when adding multiple credits thus you were creating tons of duplicates). The rest is because people don't tend to look around (different romanization etc.) aka are lazy or just don't give a shit.
)
(I have my fair share of duplicate reports too and this is also why I suggested this https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/5894aa33c3a36840a70080f7... it's a happier world when not adding acting credits
Reply by thirstyhippo
on March 4, 2017 at 7:33 AM
You misunderstand me, I'm suggesting these sites as information sources for East Asian films rather than stylistic sources. There really is no perfect database. What we can do is try and take from the official sources in their original context. Yes IMDb has an extensive database of course but the usability of some of its older Asian content is questionable. I submit corrections there from time to time too. Take for instance its Hong Kong films in the 80s and 90s, some less popular titles are still in romanised Cantonese that nobody uses (with no good recognisable alt names), some films are shown in alt English titles (US DVD titles), some in pinyin names. I understand Cantonese/Mandarin and I find them confusing myself (hence I stick to Douban for Chinese films, but the info there for speculated upcoming productions is messy too). And IMDb often have wrong cast and crew names on older Chinese and Japanese shows, they also miss out a lot of Asian TV shows.
I don't get what you mean. HKMDB uses the correct Asian naming style most of the time. Asianwiki too, doesn't use Western style for recent Chinese/Korean works but I think some of the older titles are a bit mixed up. They have a very small pool of editors.
Edit: Clarified on some of my own problems with IMDb.
Reply by Marr 🇳🇱
on October 25, 2017 at 1:43 AM
Follow-up question here for the uneducated common people, that might serve as a hints/tip/trick for the contribution bible.
Is the hyphenated part of the name, always the given name, and thus should be added last? ("Song Kang-ho")?
Reply by Geert Jan
on October 29, 2017 at 5:26 AM
Well, my only knowledge of Korean names and language comes from movies, so I don't know what the official rules are. But in my experience, yes, the given name is almost always two hyphenated syllables, and the family name a single syllable.