@MongoLloyd said:

I'm re watching this after not having seen it since it originally was in theaters and wow, just wow. SO much stuff happens that make NO sense.

Doctor Harford goes on house call, is hit on by his patient's wife who professes her undying love for him (hahahaha) and while walking home is accosted by a group of violent homophobes.

Then, he's approached by a prostitute and just willingly walks off with her to go have sex.

Then, still on his way home, he wanders into a night club and meets and old friend who tells him about a secret gathering.

Then, he runs right out to an all night costume shop and witnesses the proprietor catching his teenage daughter in a tryst with 2 cross dressing older Asian men (WTF).

I mean... WHAT makes sense about ANY of that? What we know about him is he's a pretty normal husband/father who has his own medical practice - nothing odd or weird about his character and then suddenly for no real reason at all, he goes full pervert. The secret society stuff isn't even the weirdest part of the story, ugh.

When exactly does the protagonist go "full pervert" as you say? I didn't see him dressing up as an infant and start going, "Mama! Hungry! boobie now!" .

I do agree that the film is probably Kubrick's worst. I' m not sure what he was trying to accomplish with this film. perhaps a nice nest egg for his family before he kicked the bucket? The only worthwhile cause to compromise one's art IMO.

If Kubrick were trying to sell out, you'd think he'd do something a little more conventional and mainstream than this.

@FlyingSaucersAreReal said:

If Kubrick were trying to sell out, you'd think he'd do something a little more conventional and mainstream than this.

Nah, he don't need to sell out THAT badly. It had been a while since he put out a film so I think he decided to do something to make some dough before he blew. The story is half baked IMO.

@movie_nazi said:

When exactly does the protagonist go "full pervert" as you say? I didn't see him dressing up as an infant and start going, "Mama! Hungry! boobie now!" .

He goes from being thoughtful family man/doctor, caring for his patient and kindly putting off the sexual advance of his patient's wife to walking off with a prostitute and THEN attending a secret society get together featuring naked women, group sex, and orgies. Maybe not full pervert but when you consider his character, a huge difference.

@Invidia said:

@MongoLloyd said:

I'm re watching this after not having seen it since it originally was in theaters and wow, just wow. SO much stuff happens that make NO sense.

Doctor Harford goes on house call, is hit on by his patient's wife who professes her undying love for him (hahahaha) and while walking home is accosted by a group of violent homophobes.

---

The wife was ACTING OUT from GRIEF at the loss of her husband. Since He realized this, he also didn't take advantage of the situation.

The other group of thugs he meets also reminds one of what happens in A CLOCKWORK ORANGE.

https://www.themoviedb.org/movie/185-a-clockwork-orange

---

Then, he's approached by a prostitute and just willingly walks off with her to go have sex.

---

Later we discover how insecure he is in his marriage, and how his wife had also had a sexual fantasy about someone else that she saw at a restaurant.

And we also later discover that if his wife hadn't CALLED HIM on the cell phone and STOPPED him from screwing the HOOKER then he'd could also have ended up being HIV positive (because the prostitute's roommate also told him about how she was HIV POSITIVE).

And that HOOKER is also the one who OD'd at the other party where he was called in to save her life.

And she's also the one who recognized him at the ORGY PARTY.

And she's also the CORPSE that he EXAMINES after he reads in the newspaper about the DEATH of a former BEAUTY QUEEN (which is what the HOOKER use to be).

And that also makes him SUSPECT that she'd been MURDERED due to the way they were acting with him at the ORGY.

But when he confronts the other guy about it, and accused him of having KILLED her, the guy tells him it was all just an ACT that they put on to scare him, and tells him that she'd over dozed again on drugs (because she used them as a way to try and escape from the way that she'd been screwed by so many guys) .

In other words, the guy didn't DIRECTLY KILL her, but INDIRECTLY he did by the way that he'd also USED and ABUSED her and treated her as nothing more than a WHORE and SEX OBJECT.

So the PROSTITUTE was also an INTEGRAL part of the story, and is what leads to his having his EYES WIDE OPEN at the end of the story, because IF his wife hadn't called on the cell phone and interrupted him, then he, his wife, and his child may also have ended up being HIV POSITIVE.

---

Then, still on his way home, he wanders into a night club and meets and old friend who tells him about a secret gathering.

Then, he runs right out to an all night costume shop and witnesses the proprietor catching his teenage daughter in a tryst with 2 cross dressing older Asian men (WTF).

---

Yes the friend tells him about the ORGY ... where they also find the receipt from the costume shop in the pocket of his coat ... and then try to scare him ... so that he wouldn't tell anybody else about what he saw happening there.

---

I mean... WHAT makes sense about ANY of that?

---

Perhaps if you watch it again then it will also make more sense for you???

---

What we know about him is he's a pretty normal husband/father who has his own medical practice - nothing odd or weird about his character and then suddenly for no real reason at all, he goes full pervert. The secret society stuff isn't even the weirdest part of the story, ugh.

---

As you may recall, before he's taken UPSTAIRS to revive the HOOKER who OD's on drugs, his wife was also still downstairs and dances with some other guy who tries to pick her up.

And she also dances with him as a way to try and make her husband jealous, because she's also seen 2 other HOOKERS flirting with him before he goes upstairs to rescue the one who OD's.

And still later she also tells him about how she was so attracted to the guy she sees in the restaurant that she was willing to throw the rest of her life away for him (meaning leave him and her child and run away with him).

And she also told him that after they got HIGH on POT and he got cocky with her about what he saw as being the role of women.

And then when he comes home he also finds the MASK from the COSTUME SHOP laying there beside of her on the PILLOW which then leads to the CONFESSION about what had been happening.

In other words, like the case was with his wife, he also CONFESSED about how he also almost threw away everything in his life for an encounter with a STRANGER (which also could have lead to the deaths of him, his wife, and his child).

And then they take their child CHRISTMAS SHOPPING, at which time the wife tells him that "THEY NEED to FUCK".

So we also know the reason why he ends up at the home of the HOOKER was because he wasn't having enough sex with his wife.

And that's probably also because of the way he kept doing HOUSE CALLS, like the one where the other GRIEF STRICKEN WIFE throws herself at him.

And hopefully this explanation will also OPEN YOUR EYES a bit WIDER so that you can better comprehend what's going on in the FILM???

OK, now how does the child end up HIV positive if he bangs the hooker?

@MongoLloyd said:

@movie_nazi said:

When exactly does the protagonist go "full pervert" as you say? I didn't see him dressing up as an infant and start going, "Mama! Hungry! boobie now!" .

He goes from being thoughtful family man/doctor, caring for his patient and kindly putting off the sexual advance of his patient's wife to walking off with a prostitute and THEN attending a secret society get together featuring naked women, group sex, and orgies. Maybe not full pervert but when you consider his character, a huge difference.

I just think he let his curiosity get the better of him and as Invidia has pointed out he felt like half a man when he heard his wife say she had fantasized about other men (like who doesn't fantasize, gimme a break) and had to go out and make himself feel "like a man" and go bang him some strange. Nothing really pervy about that. Sounds like your typical American husband from the 1950s actually.

@Invidia said:

@MongoLloyd said:

I'm re watching this after not having seen it since it originally was in theaters and wow, just wow. SO much stuff happens that make NO sense.

Doctor Harford goes on house call, is hit on by his patient's wife who professes her undying love for him (hahahaha) and while walking home is accosted by a group of violent homophobes.

---

The wife was ACTING OUT from GRIEF at the loss of her husband. Since He realized this, he also didn't take advantage of the situation.

No sh!t.

The other group of thugs he meets also reminds one of what happens in A CLOCKWORK ORANGE.

https://www.themoviedb.org/movie/185-a-clockwork-orange

And what does that have to do with THIS film? If they're trying to say Harford is a big pussy, ok, but then we see later on that he's pretty adventurous, so...

---

Then, he's approached by a prostitute and just willingly walks off with her to go have sex.

---

Later we discover how insecure he is in his marriage, and how his wife had also had a sexual fantasy about someone else that she saw at a restaurant.

*Pretty irrelevant unless she's also been withholding sex from him. I didn't see anything to that effect. *

And we also later discover that if his wife hadn't CALLED HIM on the cell phone and STOPPED him from screwing the HOOKER then he'd could also have ended up being HIV positive (because the prostitute's roommate also told him about how she was HIV POSITIVE).

Still has nothing to do with his sudden urge to walk off with a street walker. It's a nifty coincidence, but...

And that HOOKER is also the one who OD'd at the other party where he was called in to save her life.

And she's also the one who recognized him at the ORGY PARTY.

DUN DUN DUNNNNN!

And she's also the CORPSE that he EXAMINES after he reads in the newspaper about the DEATH of a former BEAUTY QUEEN (which is what the HOOKER use to be).

ERMAGHERD!

And that also makes him SUSPECT that she'd been MURDERED due to the way they were acting with him at the ORGY.

STOP THE PRESSES!

But when he confronts the other guy about it, and accused him of having KILLED her, the guy tells him it was all just an ACT that they put on to scare him, and tells him that she'd over dozed again on drugs (because she used them as a way to try and escape from the way that she'd been screwed by so many guys) .

In other words, the guy didn't DIRECTLY KILL her, but INDIRECTLY he did by the way that he'd also USED and ABUSED her and treated her as nothing more than a WHORE and SEX OBJECT.

OH -- MAH -- GAHD .

So the PROSTITUTE was also an INTEGRAL part of the story, and is what leads to his having his EYES WIDE OPEN at the end of the story, because IF his wife hadn't called on the cell phone and interrupted him, then he, his wife, and his child may also have ended up being HIV POSITIVE.

Dude, you are blowing my mind right now.

---

Then, still on his way home, he wanders into a night club and meets and old friend who tells him about a secret gathering.

Then, he runs right out to an all night costume shop and witnesses the proprietor catching his teenage daughter in a tryst with 2 cross dressing older Asian men (WTF).

---

Yes the friend tells him about the ORGY ... where they also find the receipt from the costume shop in the pocket of his coat ... and then try to scare him ... so that he wouldn't tell anybody else about what he saw happening there.

---

I mean... WHAT makes sense about ANY of that?

Because normal people don't act like that? And he was depicted as being a pretty straight-laced, normal guy? Again, what exactly motivates Harford to go out of his way to attend the secret gathering in the first place? What prior indication did we get that he was in any way kinky or given to impulsive behavior. He pussies out when confronted by Chads, but then he's taking up with whores and sneaking into secret high society orgies. It's ludicrous.

---

Perhaps if you watch it again then it will also make more sense for you???

It's all very clever (I guess), but my issues have not to do with the delicate interweaving of all the kinky story elements. Rather, as I mentioned, it's that all this stuff happens to Harford. What prompts Harford, who all we know about is that he's a family man and a doctor, to do ALL the bizarre sh!t he does? The writing is ludicrous and half-baked.

Jealousy can make you do stupid and risky things... Harford doesn't suddenky get adventurous because he becomes confident and curious, rather he is driven into these scenarios out of his sexual insecurity...

The simple idea that he was inadequate to his wife, drove him to this... it's not rarional, but it is a very realistic and human response when confronted by the fear of loss and inadequacy...

Also, I think Kubrick passed away before the film was edited fully... So maybe that's why it isn't as tight as his other films... It stikk is probably my favourite of his films...

Only seen this movie once, so I can't say if it's worse than I remember. While I didn't particularly like the movie, I did think it had some merit since I am a student of psychology. It's an interesting look into a descent into perversion from a seemingly normal lifestyle.

I'll probably check it out again at some point and see if it does get worse on a rewatch.

Hi Invidia

I had a feeling you'd be interested in this movie... It really touches on male psychological fragility in a way that isn't done in movies nowadays... An exception is "Enemy", which deals with the fear of monogamy and such...

Most movies that attempt to portray this in any way end up being very talky and full of exposition and explanations... Such as most of Woody Allen's neurotic man-child movies... Kubrick didn't do it that way here, instead he gives us Harford's subjective point of view and takes us on a crazy night in the city that mirror's his jealous state of mind...

Villineuve does something similar in Enemy.... Neither director bothers to explain things, or narrate them... This is great and a lot more effective, satisfying and cinematic than the monologue dominated Woody Allen type movies and the dialogue heavey TV series portrayals of people's emotional states (e.g. every TV show where people confess to a psychiatrist or priest, etc...), etc...

I think the way Harford feels is very normal and common... What his wife tells him destroys his sense of security in his relationship... He feels sexually inadequate by the simple thought she had...

Yeah, he was basically baiting her... I don't think he was expecting that comeback!

I haven't seen Cache yet... I'll check it out... Thanks

@Renovatio said:

I think the way Harford feels is very normal and common... What his wife tells him destroys his sense of security in his relationship... He feels sexually inadequate by the simple thought she had...

This is one of those things that people just want to stick their fingers in their ears and go "LA LA LA LA LA! I'M NOT LISTENING!" EVERYONE has sexual fantasies about people they find attractive. It's human nature. But most people (especially egocentric types) do not even wanna acknowledge it. I personally did not think Harford acted out in any weird type of manner. He childishly reacted to his wife's confession with "OH yeah! I'll show her!" and decided to go out and "have some fun" and at the very least "be even" with her.

@Invidia said:

@movie_nazi

I personally did not think Harford acted out in any weird type of manner.

No he didn't have SEX with the PROSTITUTE or with anyone else.

But IF his wife hadn't called him on the CELL PHONE as he's about to CHEAT on her, then he MAY HAVE also had sex and become infected with the HIV virus.

And didn't the POT SMOKING SCENE also come AFTER he'd had the encounter with the HOOKER???

So that also means it wasn't what she said to him that MOTIVATES him to consider screwing around with the other woman.

It was probably his feeling FLATTERED to be propositioned by such an attractive looking female (A FORMER BEAUTY QUEEN), and his probably also thinking he could get away with it without his wife finding out about it.

The BEAUTY QUEEN thing is also why the other men at the ORGY chose to screw the women that were there (and Laura Palmer from TWIN PEAKS was also a HOMECOMING PRINCESS who ends up in the same kind of a profession).

And NOTE the way all of them have the SAME type of BODIES ... as if they're all very tall RUN WAY MODEL types.

Wearing the MASKS also makes one NOTICE how much they're bodies all look alike.

And his 6 FT tall wife (who at the time was both his on screen and his off screen real life wife) also has the SAME BODY type.

So you're right about how he didn't actually do anything to ACT OUT SEXUALLY, but the POTENTIAL was definitely there for him to have done so if he hadn't received that cell phone call from his wife at the time when he was about to do so.

And part of the reason why he was TEMPTED to do so probably also had something to do with the way he wasn't FUCKING his wife enough (which is also the reason why the film ends with her telling him while shopping for a gift for their child that they needed to FUCK).

Well, I meant whether or not he bangs the hooker or not I did not think it was that unusual behavior. Whether one agrees with it or not is another story. I also do not think he endangered his child or even his patients by risking the HIV virus. The virus is not easy to spread outside blood transfusion and direct intimate sexual contact. Plus the chances of a male contracting HIV from heterosexual contact with a female are pretty low since he would have to ingest fluids from her body into his which as we all know is not nearly as prevalent as what the man shares with her. Not saying it is not possible but chances are lower as say direct homosexual contact where fluids are deposited into the receiver. As far as the child is concerned the chances of the mom mixing her blood with a child's open wound are pretty darn small. Too small to mention as a threat IMO. So YES, he engaging in protection free sexual contact does in fact endanger his wife but his child I do not think so. Nor his patients since a Dr. is pretty thorough when it comes to disinfecting.

Yes with open sores and bleeding gums and the stars being aligned it is possible to contract it. But seriously, who the heck doesn't see an open sore in an intimate location and go "WHOA NELLY! I just remembered I left the stove on. See ya!" .

But you are right that he had some silly antiquated notion that women don't get horny like men do which seems kinda irrational from a doctor's perspective seeing they would be familiar with the physiology of humans and know that are one and the same. Thus is the power of social pressures I imagine. It can even influence going against proven science.

This movie has always been stupid. I don't understand why you would wanna re watch it and this discussion is weird.