Discuss Money Heist

Since this show is currently in Netflix (and will continue to be), I believe that the best way to list the episodes is to follow the Netflix Listing in this page: https://www.netflix.com/eg-en/title/80192098

Which is 2 Seasons, Season 1 with 13 Episodes 40-50 Minuets Each and Season 2 with 9 Episodes

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According to Wikipedia, this was an acquisition, and Netflix will release season 3 (and maybe more), So I believe the correct listing should default to Netflix's

@harryremon wrote:

Since this show is currently in Netflix (and will continue to be), I believe that the best way to list the episodes is to follow the Netflix Listing in this page: https://www.netflix.com/eg-en/title/80192098

Which is 2 Seasons, Season 1 with 13 Episodes 40-50 Minuets Each and Season 2 with 9 Episodes

According to Wikipedia, this was an acquisition, and Netflix will release season 3 (and maybe more), So I believe the correct listing should default to Netflix's

Thanks for your 3 reports! :slight_smile:

Did you, by any chance, read all the other older discussions and issue reports regarding this show here:

https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/71446-la-casa-de-papel/discuss

Especially these 4:

https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/71446-la-casa-de-papel/discuss/5ac8443b92514162a2036043
https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/71446-la-casa-de-papel/discuss/5a8aa9ed0e0a26401108eabc
https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/71446-la-casa-de-papel/discuss/5a29760f0e0a264cc410f1bd
https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/71446-la-casa-de-papel/discuss/5a51e1850e0a26026001ae0a

I explained in those that TMDb will not follow the Netflix airing because it's not the first official airing of this show! The show officially aired first on Antena 3 in 2017 in 1 season with a summer break, until Netflix decided to edit/cut all the episodes and distribute them in 2 seasons. However, one of TMDb's major rules is: Add data from the first official release.

The major problem for TMDb regarding this show is: Netflix altered the episodes! "Altered" means they cut scenes, moved scenes, changed music, etc. to air 22 episodes (á 45 minutes) instead of Antena 3's 15 episodes (á 70 minutes). This change of episodes means we have to deal with multiple (2) versions of the same episodes, which will never be supported on TMDb (and on any other plattform, because you will get crazy thinking this through). That's why we added the text to the existing episode group:

"The rough order, including the season split, in which Netflix distributes the show for international viewers. Note: Netflix decided to edit the original 15 episodes of season 1 into 22 smaller episodes and split them into 2 seasons. Because we do not support multiple versions of the same episodes, it's impossible to display the correct order for Netflix here on TMDb."

We know this episode group is not correct because of these multiple versions of episodes -> but there's technical no way to get it perfect, I'm afraid! :worried:

I also know that Netflix announced to distribute a season 3 in 2019 for international viewers (as of my knowledge a few weeks ago). We will probably add this as season 2 here and maybe name it Season 3. Netflix's other big problem with this show is that they use the terms "season 2" and "part 2" like it's the same in different languages -> it's a nightmare for international users to get a clue what they mean. For example, you linked to the English Wikipedia article -> look at the Spanish one how they deal with this chaos:

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_casa_de_papel#Episodios_y_audiencias

They display 2 seasons (temporada) and 3 parts (parte) in the first and second column -> and I favour this division also here for TMDb.

I'm going to clean up all your edits now. And, please, look for old discussion and issue reports in the future before you edit entries here on TMDb! :smiley_cat:

Thank you for your clarifications, I did take a look at the previous discussions before I did my edits and that's why I suggested this with a reference, and let me explain why I still think using Netflix's sorting here should be done.

A) The show is currently a Netflix Owned Show. So the continuation of the show will be in Netflix's sorting.

B) The Digital Releases of the show are in Netflix's sorting.

C) Any Media Library Software that depends on TheMovieDB API will totally mess up the library because of this (as the files are almost always in Netflix sorting and the data returning from the TheMovieDB are in the old Antenna 3 sorting) .

D) The Majority of this show's audience got introduced and watched the show on Netflix. after it became internationally popular, hence the majority actually care about the current sorting.

E) Season 3 will be called Season 2 in nowhere BUT TMDb ? creating more conflicts in software and confusion for the user.

it's easy to add a table of the Netflix's sorting on Wikipedia spain's page in addition to the table you're referencing. it's an article not a listing that APIs depend on or people go to for episode guides.

So why can't the default listing of the Episodes be the current ongoing Netflix sorting and we can create an Episode Group mentioning the obselete Antenna 3 sorting.

The above are some of the arguments for changing the sorting. the only option against is that one rule.

So, don't you think that all this mess could be avoided by just bypassing the rule. I'm not saying we should break any rules here, just that every rule has exceptions ... and I believe (and appearntly I'm not alone) that there are more than one reason this show should be excempeted from this one rule.

@harryremon wrote:

Thank you for your clarifications,

I'm sorry about replying to you this late; I wanted to finish something and it took longer than I expected ... :disappointed_relieved:

I did take a look at the previous discussions before I did my edits and that's why I suggested this with a reference, and let me explain why I still think using Netflix's sorting here should be done.

So, let me understand your thinking: You read the previous discussions about how we decided to deal with this show, and then you still went ahead and edited it the way you think it should be?!? :astonished:

Please don't do that again in the future here on TMDb! Because we certainly did discuss this show at length and made a clear decision to handle it in a certain way. Or, at least, start a discussion about it with your suggestions before you make changes to the data. Otherwise, you're not really helping. We're all human and make mistakes, but anyone who reads the previous discussions should come to the conclusion that we made a final decision of how we want to display this show here on TMDb!

Also, let me reply to your 5 points:

A) The show is currently a Netflix Owned Show. So the continuation of the show will be in Netflix's sorting.

This is not true! The show is produced by a Spanish company called "Vancouver Media" (twitter / website), who is de facto the owner of the content. Initially, "Vancouver Media" made a deal with the Spanish company "Atresmedia" (website) to broadcast this show on their Spanish channel "Antena 3", which included to find an international buyer for the series. You can see this here on their official website for international sales:

http://international-sales-atresmedia.com/catalogue/la-casa-de-papel

The show was made for Atresmedia, and Atresmedia found an international buyer in Netflix who aquired the rights to distribute the show internationally. And as long as I know, those initial rights regarding the first season did not change with the new deal between those companies. Meaning, the new deal does not concern the rights of the show so far, it's only a deal for the upcoming season in 2019 (at least according to articles like this one and this one).

However, the question about ownership doesn't really matter, because TMDb does not change the original data when the owner of a show changes! It would be historically wrong to change the data every time the owner changes - I'm not sure why anyone would do that, honestly? It's true that the continuation of the show will be in Netflix sorting - but why should this be an argument to change the previous sorting? I don't really understand your argument here.

B) The Digital Releases of the show are in Netflix's sorting.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Digital Releases"? Can you elaborate on what you mean? You can still watch the show online here:

https://www.atresplayer.com/antena3/series/la-casa-de-papel

in the original Antena 3 sorting, which was the first release of this show. So we follow this release and this sorting, not Netflix'.

C) Any Media Library Software that depends on TheMovieDB API will totally mess up the library because of this (as the files are almost always in Netflix sorting and the data returning from the TheMovieDB are in the old Antenna 3 sorting)

I understand the problem, but I can't say anything to this point, since I don't use this kind of software. And I'm not sure how TMDb could solve this problem regarding this show perfectly, because no matter how we decide, one of the both groups will have to find a solution to deal with the "wrong" sorting. I'm aware of the problem, but I don't think TMDb should find a solution to this problem with your software.

D) The Majority of this show's audience got introduced and watched the show on Netflix. after it became internationally popular, hence the majority actually care about the current sorting.

In your opinion! I think this is wrong, too. This show was already a huge hit in Spain, and many people got introduced to the show via the original airing on Antena 3. However, again, it doesn't really matter, because we don't follow the popular vote to organize the data on TMDb, we follow the original airing.

E) Season 3 will be called Season 2 in nowhere BUT TMDb ? creating more conflicts in software and confusion for the user.

I think we will have to wait how other websites deal with naming the upcoming content in the future! tvdb also has only 1 season so far in Antena 3 sorting, the English Wikipedia article that you linked to does also display everything in 1 season in the Antena 3 sorting, and the Variety article about the new deal does speak of a Part 3 instead of a season 3. It's also interesting that IMDb uses the 15 episodes of the Spanish original airing and puts it into 2 seasons according to the Netflix airing (similar to our episode group), which is completely wrong (and the texts and images per episode do not seem to be correct).

And I state this again: Netflix is the cause of this confusion regarding "season" vs. "parts", not TMDb! You linked to this Netflix page:

https://www.netflix.com/de-en/title/80192098

I made a screenshot for you here: https://imgur.com/a/O0V2Svx

Do you see? Netflix uses both words on their official website, and all the people who watch the show on Netflix think it's 2 seasons. But it's not -> the official counting is in parts, and, originally, there was only 1 season with 2 parts.

it's easy to add a table of the Netflix's sorting on Wikipedia spain's page in addition to the table you're referencing. it's an article not a listing that APIs depend on or people go to for episode guides.

I don't really understand how APIs work, but TMDb is not build primarily to be an episode guide -> it's a database.

So why can't the default listing of the Episodes be the current ongoing Netflix sorting and we can create an Episode Group mentioning the obselete Antenna 3 sorting.

Because the Antena 3 sorting is not obsolete (see above). Or, take a look at their website and at the Youtube channel here:

http://www.antena3.com/series/casa-de-papel
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7XSYW2OfITd7bQm5kyllkXTpQpvF5e8S

Changing the order to Netflix would negate all of what happened before this show became an international hit. And we would have to pretend that all this never happened because Media Libraries can't deal with 2 different sortings? I don't think we should do that - it's historically wrong. (Also, but that's just my personal opinion and not really relevant: The original Spanish version is much better, because the edits/cuts of the Netflix version are really bad sometimes and the credits are full of mistakes.)

The above are some of the arguments for changing the sorting. the only option against is that one rule.

Which is one of our basic rules: original airing. We decided we won't change the sorting of this show.

So, don't you think that all this mess could be avoided by just bypassing the rule.

No, I don't think so. I think that this show is a very complicated case to add to TMDb, and there were pros and cons for both sides. I still think it's the right decision.

I'm not saying we should break any rules here, just that every rule has exceptions ... and I believe (and appearntly I'm not alone) that there are more than one reason this show should be excempeted from this one rule.

Many of your 5 points relate to TMDb as being an episode guide of some sorts - but we are a database foremost. Which is why this rule is so important to us, and I don't think we make exceptions. And even if we would do in this case, those people who want to use their personal Media Library Software according to the Antena 3 airing will be disappointed. And I think that's the main problem: It's impossible to cater to both groups at the same time because of the altered episodes, so you have to decide for one group. And we decided as per our rule: original airing! :tv:

So why not to allow people to add in such situation the another whole new entry in a database with a little bit changed title for example:

"La casa de papel (Netflix cut)" 1. Season 1 (1 -> 13) 2. Season 2 (1 -> 9)

If differences between original and Netflix version are so big that there is no chance to merge both in one entry so why not to deal with it in such a way right know until the final solution come (which I suppose will never do because such situation is so rare that probably you will not invest your time in it )?

Situation that is right now as you can see brings a big confusion for users that I suppose too are more familiar with Netflix cut than original

Allowing for a second whole new entry in DB in that situation is a god compromise don't you think? It is not just a simple duplicate. Differences between these two releases are so big that they could justify that kind of solution to this problem

@Sud0 wrote:

If differences between original and Netflix version are so big that there is no chance to merge both in one entry so why not to deal with it in such a way right now

Basically because the content is the same! As far as I remember, the version that aired on Netflix did not have any new scene(s) at all! In fact, especially season 1 is shorter because Netflix did not include a few scenes. For example, I remember the scene when Raquel was at the kid's birthday party and the kids found her gun in the closet (or was it her jacket - perhaps). Or the scene in which Fran apologized to Maria for taking the boob picture on his mobile. Both are not in the Netflix version, as far as I remember.

Which means: The Netflix version is in fact a duplicate, just shorter and with many scenes in a different order. The same content is remixed -> and that's why we have to delete second entries here on TMDb according to our rules. It's duplicate content that we don't allow.

until the final solution come (which I suppose will never do because such situation is so rare that probably you will not invest your time in it )?

I'm afraid so, yes. There won't be a better solution in the future. :worried:

Situation that is right now as you can see brings a big confusion for users that I suppose too are more familiar with Netflix cut than original

I know that the situation is quite confusing - unfortunately, I can't change it! If it's any consolation: I delete contributed second seasons on a regular basis, I did so more than 100 times during the last 7 months - and it's quite exhausting. And it's all documented in the various discussions and content issue reports, so contributors could know if they would read them. That's why I would love to have a different solution for this - but there isn't. :tired_face:

Allowing for a second whole new entry in DB in that situation is a god compromise don't you think?

No. I think one of the biggest problems with a second entry here on TMDb is the handling of cast and crew. Since this would be the same content for all of them, all actresses and actors as well as all crew members would be credited twice for the same work they've done. Which seems very wrong to me. TMDb is, primarily, a database that tries to present the content as it was released and with data that's complete and correct based on this very content - not on the versions of this content that aired over time. To duplicate this same content because Netflix decided to "remix" the original content for international viewers is the wrong way to go, in my opinion.

It is not just a simple duplicate. Differences between these two releases are so big that they could justify that kind of solution to this problem

I know. I watched both versions more than 2 times and there are quite some differences between them. It was really hard to figure out the exact parts and how Netflix moved them around within and between episodes; they also made some weird choices regarding the plot. It drove me insane back then to contribute everything to TMDb. :nerd: But, the differences are in the order, not in the original content! It is a duplicate - that's why we delete it.

I still think we made the right decision, and I don't see a (technical) solution to change our current entry in the future in any way. :cry:

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