Discuss True Detective

Here's part of a great theory from a TV GUIDE article:

How True Detective Season 3 Might Directly Connect to Season 1

https://www.tvguide.com/news/true-detective-season-3-crooked-spiral-theory/

In Episode 2, when documentarian Elisa Montgomery (Sarah Gadon) interviewed Det. Wayne Hays (Mahershala Ali) about the Purcell case in 2015, she showed him some websites from amateur true crime sleuths trying to unravel the mystery, which might be a bigger conspiracy than just convicting the wrong guy. "They go in lots of directions," Montgomery said. "Did you know at various times since, large scale pedophile rings connected to people of influence were uncovered in the surrounding areas? Do you know about the Franklin scandal?"

The Franklin scandal was an alleged pedophile ring in the late '80s connected to a prominent Nebraska banker and political donor. He was said to have trafficked children to Washington D.C. to be abused by powerful people in Satanic rituals. It was debunked by 1990, but Montgomery doesn't seem to accept that story, because part of conspiratorial thinking is not accepting official narratives. And besides, while there may not be a Satanic component, well-connected predators who get away with horrible crimes are very real.

Season 1 had its own Franklin scandal-esque conspiracy. That season's murders were being committed by Errol Childress (Glenn Fleshler), who was related to Rev. Billy Lee Tuttle (Jay O. Sanders), who in turn was the governor's cousin. Tuttle ran religious schools that were basically fronts for a pedophilia ring. The murders on that season were committed as part of occult rituals, and the first victim, Dora Lange, was found in a ritualistic pose similar to Season 3's Will Purcell (Phoenix Elkin). Lange was found bound to a tree with her hands in a prayer pose (like Purcell's were) with weird religious-seeming totems left at the scene (twig lattices at Lange's site, and straw dolls at Purcell's). Lange also had a crown of antlers on her head and a crooked spiral painted on her back. That crooked spiral is what makes things really interesting, because of what Montgomery said right after referencing the Franklin scandal.

"It's been theorized that straw dolls are a sign of pedophile groups like the crooked spiral," she said. But there's something ambiguous about the way she said "crooked spiral." She could be saying that straw dolls and crooked spirals are both symbols used by pedophiles. Or — and this is what her inflection made it sound like — there's a pedophile group called the Crooked Spiral.

The cult from Season 1 wasn't brought to justice, so it might still be out there. There were about a dozen people in the videotape of the torture of Marie Fontenot, none of whom were ever unmasked. Rev. Tuttle was never even conclusively linked to the cult, and he was probably murdered by people even higher up than him to keep it that way. We know that the cult worshipped the Yellow King, but we never learned their name. It's possible that awareness of the Crooked Spiral has spread among conspiracy theorists and online true crime obsessives thanks to cases like the one from Season 1. People know the Crooked Spiral exists but can't prove it. Maybe the the cult is operating in Arkansas, Louisiana and elsewhere and is protected because it includes powerful people in its ranks.

Here's an out-there theory about Season 3:

Kent — the 1980 DA who by 1990 had become Arkansas' Attorney General — knew what he was doing when he went on TV and gave the case away. He's part of a conspiracy to cover up who really committed the murder, and part of what got him elevated to Attorney General was his service to the people pulling the strings. We know from Season 1 that the people involved in the cult are well-connected politically.

On the other hand it also says this:

Will's body didn't show signs of sexual abuse. The pedophile cult theory might be another red herring. We might want there to be a highly organized and powerful conspiracy, because that's somehow easier to grasp than one sick person acting alone.

It'll be awhile before we meet grown-up Julie Purcell, the only person who can tell us what really happened, and even she probably isn't a reliable narrator. No one is. There might not be any Crooked Spiral at all, and it all might be a paranoid myth connected to the "Satanic panic" craze that gripped the country in the '80s and is being alluded to on True Detective. Like Hays, we may not ever know the whole story. Not every question can be answered.

Any thoughts or comments???

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This link contains A PHOTO of Detective Wayne sitting in front of the Wall AREA that actually contains the CROWN and the CROOKED SPIRAL that were found on the body of the victim they found back in S1:

https://www.inverse.com/article/52780-true-detective-season-3-spoilers-roland-west

And this link also contains a list of the murder suspects, and claims they think Wayne's WIFE could also be one of them (the motive being because she wanted to PROMOTE the sales of her CRIME BOOK):

https://www.theringer.com/tv/2019/1/27/18197786/true-detective-episode-4-recap

Does being a former FRINGE member of the BLACK PANTHERS back in the early 70's really qualify her for being placed into the SUSPECT CATEGORY???

Because otherwise this VEGETARIAN also doesn't strike one as being a PSYCHOPATHIC KILLER.

If anything Wayne's PARTNER ROLAND would better fit into that kind of a CATEGORY with his confession about how he KILLED ANIMALS as a child FOR MONEY, and how he's also confessed to seeing HOOKERS (which should probably also be reason enough to fire him from his job because PROSTITUTION also isn't LEGAL there in ARKANSAS).

And he also directed his PARTNER WAYNE to help himself to the ILLEGAL DRUGS he had stashed in THE GLOVE BOX of his car (again still more reason to fire him instead of promote him).

And we've also seen him BEATING UP the other child molester and threatening his life (the same way as we also saw the other character who played BLACK SABBATH music inside of the PURPLE VW BUG he owns BULLY the other boy in the school yard who gave the COPS a different story that was the OPPOSITE of what this FREDDY BURNS told them about the kids.

Anyhow, his repeatedly breaking the law, his SUBSTANCE ABUSE, his BEATING UP PEOPLE and threatening to kill them, and his KILLING ANIMALS as a kid all point to his being an ANTI SOCIAL PERSONALITY (HBO's show OZ also informed us that over 90 percent of prison inmates fit into that category).

So HOW the hell did the FOCUS of being a SUSPECT ever get AIMED at Wayne's WIFE instead of at HIS PSYCHO PARTNER who, imo, also fits better into the profile of being a KILLER than the WIFE DOES???

thinking

Here's still another question:

Does anyone else think this SEASON has TOO MANY TYPEWRITERS in it???

Where the hell are the COMPUTERS and CELL PHONES???

Maybe the 80's didn't have very Many of them in use, but by the time one gets to the 90's shouldn't we be seeing some computers instead of TYPEWRITERS being used by these detectives???

So far the only time one recalls seeing a computer screen is when the ELIZA character shows Wayne the website that she shows him where people post theories about what happened to the kids.

thinking

FYI:

LYRICS from the ENDING CREDITS song that we hear playing in Ep 1 of S3:

I woke up this mornin' with the sundown shinin' in

I found my mind in a brown paper bag within

I tripped on a cloud and fell-a eight miles high

I tore my mind on a jagged sky

I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in

(Yeah, yeah, oh-yeah, what condition my condition was in)

I pushed my soul in a deep dark hole and then I followed it in


QUESTION:

Could the EXPLOSION we see at the end of Ep. 4 be the reason for the CONFUSED CONDITION he's in???


LYRICS from the PURPLE HAZE song (in reference to the NICKNAME that his partner keeps calling him):

Purple haze, all in my brain

Lately things they don't seem the same

Actin' funny, but I don't know why

It's 1990. Typewriters were still the norm particularly in cash strapped police districts and rural areas. Cell phones? Smh.

But he's also using a TYPEWRITER in the scene when he's a 70 YEAR OLD MAN.

So how do you explain that???

thinking

Habit. Think of Hays character. He's not exactly progressive. He freaked at the very idea of his wife writing a book about his most significant moment in his career.

Have you never heard of the 'digital divide'? There are certain segments of society that will never adopt new tech for a variety of reasons. It's not unbelievable.

No it's not UNBELIEVABLE that he would cling to an OUTDATED object (the one we see also didn't even look like it was an ELECTRIC one).

But it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY and it would most likely also be quite DIFFICULT if not IMPOSSIBLE to get parts to replace for it (such as getting a replacement RIBBON for it once the other one needed replacing).

And since he also wasn't promoted, his salary probably also wouldn't enable him to be able to afford the kind of expense that it would involve in finding such parts.

Imagine someone trying to find replacement parts for a VCR or BLANK VCR TAPES now that VCR's are no longer being used anymore.

Or trying to find FILM for a BROWINE camera (like the one's that we keep seeing being used to take photos of crime scenes with).

wink

Does he actually use the typewriter? I just assumed it was a symbol of his late wife. Imagine CLINGING TO SOMETHING as stupid as that?

Does he actually use the typewriter? I just assumed it was a symbol of his late wife. Imagine CLINGING TO SOMETHING as stupid as that?

We see him using a typewriter, but can't remember if it was the one at his house or was one where he works. It was probably one where he works because one also recalls how he couldn't find the FINGERPRINTS that were missing from the STORAGE BOX.

As for CLINGING to the typewriter at his house because it belonged to his wife, that's also HIGHLY UNLIKELY due to the way he HATED the BOOK that she wrote and the way that they also kept fighting about her writing it.

Remember how upset he was when he finds out she told the cop she went to dinner with that she was DIVORCED???

Remember how he also called her a TOURIST and said she was a VOYEUR who USED PEOPLE as a way to write stories and LIFT herself up???

Why would he want to hang on to the TYPEWRITER which would have been a TOOL that she used to do that???

thinking

You asked a question which I answered. You argued that you knew better despite highlighting that you lacked the requisite general knowledge in this area which is probably due to age so not your fault. What is more worrying is that you seem to be unfamiliar with the sentimentality of human beings or even basic male - female dynamics. Good luck finding someone to put up with your tedious current mode of discourse.

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Overview Types Non-fallacious reasoning Criticism as a fallacy

Ad hominem, short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The terms ad mulierem and ad feminam have been used specifically when the person receiving the criticism is female.


@gibson8 said:

You asked a question which I answered. You argued that you knew better

Exactly WHAT was said that gives you that kind of an impression???

Please also NOTE the way the first reply given back to you was a QUESTION:

But he's also using a TYPEWRITER in the scene when he's a 70 YEAR OLD MAN.

So how do you explain that???

And HOW do you jump to the FALSE CONCLUSION that ASKING a QUESTION means someone KNOWS BETTER???

thinking

ALSO NOTE how the 2ND REPLY that's given back to you also ADMITS that what you said could be right:

No it's not UNBELIEVABLE ... that he would cling to an OUTDATED object (the one we see also didn't even look like it was an ELECTRIC one). But it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY and it would most likely also be quite DIFFICULT if not IMPOSSIBLE to get parts to replace for it (such as getting a replacement RIBBON for it once the other one needed replacing).

So again, one also hasn't CONCLUDED that they KNOW BETTER. They simply point out how UNLIKELY the chances are that what you've said is correct.

Also NOTE the way the 3RD REPLY you're given back again once again ends by ASKING a QUESTION and pointing out how UNLIKELY what you've said is while also pointing out the REASON why that's the case:

As for CLINGING to the typewriter at his house because it belonged to his wife, that's also HIGHLY UNLIKELY due to the way he HATED the BOOK that she wrote and the way that they also kept fighting about her writing it.

Remember how upset he was when he finds out she told the cop she went to dinner with that she was DIVORCED??? Remember how he also called her a TOURIST and said she was a VOYEUR who USED PEOPLE as a way to write stories and LIFT herself up???

Why would he want to hang on to the TYPEWRITER which would have been a TOOL that she used to do that???

So WHY do you ATTACK the person who ASKED the QUESTION instead of offer an ANSWER to it???

That's the QUESTION that still needs to be addressed instead of INCORRECTLY claiming someone KNOWS BETTER.

Since one hasn't WRITTEN the show, of course one doesn't KNOW anymore about it than you do.

despite highlighting that you lacked the requisite general knowledge in this area which is probably due to age so not your fault.

HUH???

Lacking WHAT GENERAL KNOWLEDGE is due to AGE???

GENERAL KNOWLEDGE in WHAT AREA???

What area are you talking about???

What is more worrying is that you seem to be unfamiliar with the sentimentality of human beings or even basic male - female dynamics.

And What exactly has been said to indicate one isn't FAMILIAR with the SENIMENTALITY of HUMAN BEINGS or with the basic DYNAMICS of GENDER ???

You reach that kind of a FALSE ASSUMPTION simply because one POINTS OUT to you how much he HATES and RESENTS the BOOK she's written (that he also says is MOSTLY ABOUT HIM)???

Also NOTE the way he's the one who REFUSED to let her GIVE a COPY of it to ROLAND and his girlfriend when they go to his house for DINNER.

And the reason he gives us is saying that:

GIFTS SHOULDN'T FLATTER the GIVER.

Meaning his WIFE would be seeking FLATTERERY from those that she gives a copy of the BOOK to as a GIFT.

But is that really the reason, or is it he doesn't want ROLAND to have a copy of it because the BOOK is ABOUT WAYNE, and he doesn't LIKE what his wife said ABOUT HIM in the BOOK???

Also NOTE the way they had the FIGHT about the BOOK, and the way he said he'd SUPPORTED HER while she'd written it, before she also points out that he only did so because he wanted to CONTROL HER by having her CLEAN his HOME and FIX his MEALS.

Which probably also means he didn't really SUPPORT her so that she could write it, but only did so because he never really expected her to ever FINISH writing it, and because he also liked her better being a STAY at HOME HOUSE WIFE.

Which also means one is QUITE AWARE of the kind of DYNAMICS that are taking place between this couple (which is probably also the real reason why he didn't want ROLAND or his girlfriend to have a copy of the book).

And we also heard them ARGUE and her saying to him that she spent 5 TIMES more TIME with their KIDS than he did.

And that was also an ECHO of what we previously heard LUCY saying to TOM when she said she had the right to HAVE A LIFE.

Good luck finding someone to put up with your tedious current mode of discourse.

ONCE AGAIN, instead of OFFERING an ANSWER to the QUESTION put forth, you RESORT to the use of the ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM again or to ATTACKING the person with whom you're having a DEBATE.

So WHY RESORT to USING such a FALLACY???

Is it because you refuse to ADMIT that you've LOST the ARGUMENT and have NO OTHER COUNTER OFFER to put forth???

If so, why not just say so instead of resorting to the use of the ARGUMENT AD HOMINEM as a RED HERRING???

And in case you've FORGOTTEN what the QUESTION is here it is again for you:

Why would he want to hang on to the TYPEWRITER which would have been a TOOL that she used to do that (write the BOOK that he HATES so much that he also REFUSES to READ IT)???

When one sticks to the use of LOGIC and REASON (and doesn't RESORT to the use of ILLOGICAL EMOTIONAL FILLED FALLACIES like the ARGUMENT AD HOMINEM), one also doesn't NEED LUCK.

But THANKS for the GOOD WISHES anyhow (which one also suspects were NOT anymore SINCERE than Wayne's offer to SUPPORT his WIFE while she wrote the book).

grin

Assuming he is not using it due to his dementia then its existence is mere happenstance - people keep weird shit - but if it is in use then I cannot resolve your queries. Are you implying that the typewriter may have greater significance?

Yes the implication is the TYPEWRITER might represent the TIME ISSUE (which is supposedly also a result of the DEMENTIA).

And the DEMENTIA also means we have an UNRELIABLE NARRATOR who is telling the story to us.

And that also means whenever we see scenes that involve his MEMORY of the PAST, then we also can't rely upon them to be ACCURATE.

A good example of this would be the SCENE where we see him SEARCHING the ROOMS for his family (who aren't there because it's the PRESENT TIME and is not the PAST anymore back when his kids were still young children).

It's also interesting how he looks at the OTHER YOUNGER VERSION of himself as if it's another completely different person and how we also see the OLDER VERSION opening the door as the YOUNGER one looks over at it.

That hypothesis may well be correct so why ask the question in the first place? (Answer without the use of extraneous capital letters please).

We also see an OLD BOX sitting there in the room with the TYPEWRITER (like the other one that contains the other ITEMS kept stored at the POLICE STATION except for the MISSING FINGER PRINTS).

And some of the LABELS in the box also say MISSING CHILDEN and have the NAME of the HARVEST MOON BOOK on them.

So what's up with the HARVEST MOON???

What's it's connection to all of this???

As you may recall, the person who interviews him also had a device in that room (for lighting effect) that also looks like a HUGE MOON.

And we also see Wayne looking into a PUDDLE where we see the REFLECECTION of a FULL MOON.

A SEARCH for the BOX also turned up this link which also explains what one is trying to say regarding the ODD presence of the TYPEWRITER:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/comments/ahyo9d/the_harvest_moon_mistake/

A number of shrewd redditors have pointed out that there was no full moon on November 7 1980. It was a new moon that night:

https://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/1980/november

Clearly 2015 Hays is misremembering certain events, and judging by the title of Amelia's book it seems likely that Hays is remembering Amelia's recorded account more than his own. Maybe this is a statement about how fiction colors reality and in some sense rewrites the past.

We have seen in previews that Amelia and Hays end up working together on the investigation (scene of them in a car apparently on a stakeout) and I wonder if this is where/when the harvest moon actually occurs. Perhaps Amelia associates the full moon of Nov 21-23 with the case because that is when she became more involved with the investigation. If so then I expect a sly shot of a full moon in the weeks following the disappearance.

This full moon farce seems like far too big of a mistake to make on the show writers' part. Plus the idea of fiction and false memory coloring reality fits perfectly with what we've seen thus far.

And We also know WAYNE and ROLAND rewrite the PAST when they agree to say the BROKEN WINDSHIELD was an act of RANDOM VIOLENCE.

Sorry about use of the CAPS … have EYE ISSUES that makes reading smaller print hurt the eyes.

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