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Rudd-12 and jxh13 have turned up. We're still looking for Chris109, Dark_Sithlord and sukhiso.

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No, but I still liked the story better at least of Generations and even First Contact

Really Knix? for a person who is a stickler for details like yourself that surprises me because there is a a very big issue with Generations at least from my perspective. I shall surmise the very BIG issue I and more people have with Generations with this next piece of dialogue;

PICARD: Guinan, ...can I leave the Nexus?

GUINAN: Where would you go?

PICARD: I don't understand.

GUINAN: But as I said, time has no meaning here. So if you leave you can go anywhere, any time.

PICARD: All right, I know exactly where I want to go. The mountaintop on Veridian Three, just before Soran destroyed the star. I have to stop it. But I need help. Now, if you were to come back with me. Together, we c...

WHAT THE F@#K???? :confounded: you can go back anywhere ,anytime and he picks THATmoment? Seriously what was Picard thinking here did he lost all his marbles or did he temporarily become senile? Why not go back before the events with Soran happen and arrest him when they find him on the space station or even better go back a couple of weeks for Picard to warn his brother Renee and his nephew so they won't die horribly in a fire?Oh wait so they can have Shatner make an appearance,but considering what was at stake I would not have chosen one senior citizen to help but get the help of let's say Worf and a phalanx of security personnel.

As for First Contact,if the Borg were so intelligent why on Earth would your main plan be to attack Earth with ONE Borg cube and your secondary plan to travel back to Earths past????? :anguished: Sorry but that was the dumbest plan in strategic history IMO,why not make your secondary plan your primary plan and let's say fly to the edges of Federation space go back in time there and then fly to Earth and assimilate it before they had the technology to resist you?If you had such technology you wouldn't want to loose the massive advantage of that technology with such a half-assed plan,and most certainly not if you are the Borg.

And don't get me started about Insurrection at least Nemesis had a story that made some sense.But I think this next video in four parts (yes from the guy who did those Star Wars prequels reviews) and all of the points he talks about in Insurrection were things that irked me when I first saw it in the theatre back in feb. '99.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlV3bsafkq0 (I)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr4RHI01t38&t=0s&list=PLwdUyKqMx426A187Xj0aFwbXeFlDdLTOS&index=10 (II)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVeXdhADrmI&index=10&list=PLwdUyKqMx426A187Xj0aFwbXeFlDdLTOS (III)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmUzoIENIXc&list=PLwdUyKqMx426A187Xj0aFwbXeFlDdLTOS&index=11) (IV)

Yes, I've complained about all of that too. Perhaps most of all the Borg stuff. Both "why don't they ever send even just TWO cubes?" especially when we're told that standard Borg procedure is to swarm and overwhelm a world/system, and "why didn't they go back in time FIRST and THEN go to earth?" The answer to both is the same, of course: Because then they would have won. And we can't have THAT! The single larger issue of course is that the Borg were just too powerful to start with.

In the olden days of computerized Star Trek games, one of the FAQ type things was "Why don't the Klingons attack more than one starbase at the same time?" The response was: "Because then you wouldn't stand a chance."

But that's kind of standard fare though, really. Especially for things like Star Trek. I've pointed out in other threads, how so many of the situations encountered by the Enterprise would have led to the destruction of Earth etc, if it hadn't been for Captain Kirk Specifically. i.e., no other starship/captain could have prevented it. Nomad, for example. If Nomad had encountered any ship whose captain's name didn't sound like its Creator, BAM! goes the starship and then BAM! goes the Earth.

With all that said, though, I still thought Nemesis was the worst of them all. Both because of the "Extra Data" thing, and because of "Picard's son/clone." Both of which sickened me more than anything in the other movies. And it's not difficult to see how Picard going back to an earlier time in Generations could have caused a paradox or something. (Leaving aside that, I think it's been said in non-film venues, that originally the story was that Picard had to choose someone who was also in the Nexus to help. So he couldn't have used Worf etc.) Some things might be necessary/expected in writing/fiction, such as Kirk's name etc. But there was no need for an extra Data, nor for Picard's son/clone.

by Knixon:

With all that said, though, I still thought Nemesis was the worst of them all. Both because of the "Extra Data" thing, and because of "Picard's son/clone." But there was no need for an extra Data, nor for Picard's son/clone.


On the contrary,Nemesis worked for me because I don’t care about dazzling space battles …. I love drama , pain and torment and Shinzon is all that and much much more. He is one of the most multi faceted villains in the franchise.

According to me the best scenes in Nemesis are those with Picard and Shinzon … their conflicted relationship are all stand out moments.

I agree ,Shinzon wanting to destroy Earth didn’ make sense but his hatred for the Romulans , who created him , then abandoned him and mistreated him in the mines , did and his need to meet , talk and interact with Picard was an understandable and human reaction.

I was excited to see how things would unfold between them .

Picard, during their private dinner , is on the defensive warning his guest that he cannot let his personal feelings have the better of him…while Shinzon fiercely “attacks” saying “All I have are my personal feelings”.

Shinzon is a tragic character ..buried alive in the delithium mines for 10 long years without seeing the stars .

As the Praetor of Romulan he offers peace and his friendship , as a human his penetrating and inquisitive eyes seek answers only Picard can give him…he wants to know about the history of the Picards and what is the essence of being human.

In their second encounter Picard tries to reach out to Shinzon , like a father would to a troubled son ( the fact that Picard never had a son and Shinzon never a father makes this scene so much more intense and meaningful).

Picard tries to make him understand that there is good in him….. after all they have the same DNA ... but Shinzon is right when he says ”I can’t fight the man I am”…he is the product of his past … and years of pain ,sorrow, anger and hate in the end poisoned his soul .

Just to refresh your memory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl0c_aXJtUc

This is such a powerful scene ..the body language ( the way Shinzon retreats when Picard steps forward,, his expressive eyes full of conflicted emotions )the words and tone in which they are delivered , makes this one of the most tempestuous moments in the entire franchise .

I felt for Shinzon and despite he was the villain I actually hurt when he died.

Insurrection is the best of the TNG films. It comes the closest to feeling like an extended ep of the series.

I'm not all about space battles either. But the clone/child thing never impresses me. Especially for something that's supposed to be science fiction, not just Grey's Anatomy In Space.

by Jet:

Insurrection is the best of the TNG films. It comes the closest to feeling like an extended ep of the series.

@That's the impression I got too .. so ultimately it 's a bit of a let down because when one pays to go see a film one hopes to see something more an just an extended ep . It's a 58 million dollar wasted opportunity .

Insurrection is the best of the TNG films. It comes the closest to feeling like an extended ep of the series.

Like I said previously that I like with the direction they were going for (more like the series) with Insurrection ,but when they come up with an inferior rehash of the TNG episodes Who Watches the Watchers and Journey's End you'll probably understand the disappointment I felt after leaving the theatre.

That's the impression I got too .. so ultimately it 's a bit of a let down because when one pays to go see a film one hopes to see something more an just an extended ep . It's a 58 million dollar wasted opportunity .

I have to agree with you there Sunshine Insurrection felt so underwhelming compared to it's predecessor First Contact,with the cheap looking sets and less than stellar FX's .Add to that ,that we as an audience feel hardly to no sympathy for a group of Amish settlers because their "philosophy" is the direct opposite of that of the franchise(the benefits of technology) it confuses the viewer why Picard would feel connected to their plight since they had no claims on that planet in the first place,just because they happen to live there for 300 years doesn't make their case stronger compared to the issues Starfleet and the Federation were facing at that particular period(the Dominion War) and in such a scenario the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (to quote Spock).And I get" the whole forced location premise"as an analogy to the things that were happening in the former Yugoslav around that time but in the way it is presented in Insurrection it feels like an excuse for Picard to rebel against Starfleet because he has the hots for some cock teasing MILF on the planet.

Even worse is that Insurrection makes Picard a hypocrite when his actions directly oppose how he dealt with similar cases in the past(as was mentioned in de review)and makes his motives for acting in the movie feel very subjective(and slightly racist in the case of those Native Americans in Journey's End).As a matter of fact I always regretted the fact that Wesley Crusher wasn't more in the movies because if he had been he would have called out Picard on his hypocrisy.

Holes can be punched into almost every episode of the entire franchise and all of the movies, Nex. I don't care about rehashed plot elements or inconsistencies in characterization. If I did, I wouldn't watch a good portion of the franchise. I maintain that Insurrection does the best job of capturing the feel of the series.

That is the part of Insurrection that I do appreciate but when you spend $58 million on something(which compared to the budgets around at that time was quite a big budget) We sort of want to see that on the screen although it did feature "bullet time" for the first time prior to The Matrix.

@sunshine62 said:

by Jet:

Insurrection is the best of the TNG films. It comes the closest to feeling like an extended ep of the series.

@That's the impression I got too .. so ultimately it 's a bit of a let down because when one pays to go see a film one hopes to see something more an just an extended ep . It's a 58 million dollar wasted opportunity .

Once again, sunshine, we'll have to agree to disagree. :rose:

by Knixon:

I'm not all about space battles either. But the clone/child thing never impresses me. Especially for something that's supposed to be science fiction, not just Grey's Anatomy In Space.

@ I have never seen "Grey's Anatomy " so I looked it up it’s a series about doctors doing their training course in a hospital in Seatle. .I don’t see the connect with cloning humans which is (hopefully still) a sci-fiction theme.

“Moon” and “The Impostor” are two successful sci-fiction film based on the theme of human cloning …did you find these films also unimpressive ?

Set to create a doppelganger of Picard , an important member of Starfleet the Romulans eventually would have replace the real Picard with clone Shinzon .

When a different political fraction came to power the plan was abandon and Shinzon was sent as a slave to the Reman mines to die.

He became the symbol of hope and justice for his “ brother “ Remans , who were being exploited and mistreated by their Romulan cousins .

Shinzon led the rebellion , eliminated and took power over Romulus . He freed his brother Remans and promised them to destroy any potential enemy of Romulus , being with the the Terrans.

Under false pretenses, he invites the Federation to peace talks on Romulus and Picard ,tackfully lure close to the Romulan zone on a “ treasure hunt” , and because in the vicinity ,receives Starfleet orders to encounter and hear Shinzon’s offer of peace and friendship.

I think that is a great backstory and beginning for a film .

Shinzon and Picards encounters are interesting on a psychological level...due identical DNA subjects that have different life experience and turn into opposites ..Picard represents the good and Shinzon the evil , two faces of the same coin. Their reactions and body language are such a treat to watch .

Nemesis offers drama and action and the CGI battle scenes are great.

Sorry but I have a true passion for this film and I find it hard to believe that someone would rate it even less than Insurrection .

by Jet :

Insurrection is the best of the TNG films. It comes the closest to feeling like an extended ep of the series.

@ You are right ...where we differ is that I don't think that is a merit...unfortuately I don't think the format used in the TV series (special the TOS one) translates well on the big screen .


by Jet: Once again, sunshine, we'll have to agree to disagree. 🌹

@ We are actually in the same boat ..I will never stop promoting Nemesis another ST. film that is always quite low on fans list.

Thanks for the red rose ,Jet...I'm looking forward to reading your ST list on the rating thread Nex started :grin:

No roses for me ? :tired_face:

by Nexus:

No roses for me ? 😫


This should make you shed another kind of tear , Nex

Enjoy!

Trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqFZuR6UzjA

the sadistic dentist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoWom0CCRKM

Masochistic Bill Murry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB7R0ZxNgC4

Seymour and Audrey 2 begging for FOOOOD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEmp9RueJRI

@sunshine62 said:

by Knixon:

I'm not all about space battles either. But the clone/child thing never impresses me. Especially for something that's supposed to be science fiction, not just Grey's Anatomy In Space.

@ I have never seen "Grey's Anatomy " so I looked it up it’s a series about doctors doing their training course in a hospital in Seatle. .I don’t see the connect with cloning humans which is (hopefully still) a sci-fiction theme.

Grey's Anatomy is a "soap opera" that happens to be set in a hospital. Maybe I should have referred to "General Hospital" instead, which has been running continuously since 1963. It's not really "about a hospital" either. I think it's still on 5 days a week, and no repeats or summer break. But Grey's Anatomy is a far more recent and I thought more generally known thing even outside the US. Shows like Grey's and others - Dallas, etc - which are on just weekly and follow a more typical TV production schedule, are sometimes called "prime-time soaps."

“Moon” and “The Impostor” are two successful sci-fiction film based on the theme of human cloning …did you find these films also unimpressive ?

I haven't seen The Impostor. Moon looked pretty, but lacked credibility to me because it seemed like it would have been easier, simpler, and more cost-effective to just have a new person go there occasionally rather than have all that clone-production stuff.

Set to create a doppelganger of Picard , an important member of Starfleet the Romulans eventually would have replace the real Picard with clone Shinzon .

But clones were always easily discovered before, by Beverly and others. DNA errors, etc. Plus the usual other clone issues: exact duplication of memories, physical changes and scars... How were they supposed to obtain, even if they could successfully implant, all the memories about Vash etc, which happened without anyone else's direct knowledge? Did the Romulans have the ability to replace the clone's heart with a mechanical one as with the real Picard, to the degree it couldn't be discovered being different? Twice, in fact. It had to be replaced in a TNG episode and Picard almost died. Then whatever differences might have been left by his temporarily assimilation by the Borg... Could they have done all that and made it impossible to tell the difference? Could they have fooled Troi? Or her mother? I strongly doubt it. As with Moon, the "clone" excuse strikes me as just another cheap trick that might fool "some of the people, some of the time."

When a different political fraction came to power the plan was abandon and Shinzon was sent as a slave to the Reman mines to die.

This is where it really becomes "soap opera," although the clone thing - referred to in soaps as "evil twin" - happens a lot too.

He became the symbol of hope and justice for his “ brother “ Remans , who were being exploited and mistreated by their Romulan cousins .

Shinzon led the rebellion , eliminated and took power over Romulus . He freed his brother Remans and promised them to destroy any potential enemy of Romulus , being with the the Terrans.

Under false pretenses, he invites the Federation to peace talks on Romulus and Picard ,tackfully lure close to the Romulan zone on a “ treasure hunt” , and because in the vicinity ,receives Starfleet orders to encounter and hear Shinzon’s offer of peace and friendship.

I think that is a great backstory and beginning for a film .

Shinzon and Picards encounters are interesting on a psychological level...due identical DNA subjects that have different life experience and turn into opposites ..Picard represents the good and Shinzon the evil , two faces of the same coin. Their reactions and body language are such a treat to watch .

To me that's just sci-fi soap opera. Or Space Opera, maybe. Although that usually refers to just the space battle type stuff. And I think people should be less impressed by the "identical DNA subjects that have different life experience" thing. For one thing it happens to identical twins/triplets/etc all the time, especially when some might be adopted by other families. And it really helps show that the whole clone thing was pretty much pointless to start with.

Nemesis offers drama and action and the CGI battle scenes are great.

Except they ignored some important aspects of physics.

Sorry but I have a true passion for this film and I find it hard to believe that someone would rate it even less than Insurrection .

Well I found Insurrection to be pretty terrible too, but it might be something of a toss-up as to which is actually worse.

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