@Gus Gorman said:

Buffy the Vampire is a great show but Angel is superb... FACT!

Also loved Angel, but was disappointed with the crummy way they treated Cordelia. She deserved better than that. Angel was starting to find love again - which , I suppose in the Whedon world, is the kiss of death. No happiness for more than one episode! Any way, Love both Buffy and Angel. Special love for Spike!

Better characters for sure, I got tired of the Scooby Gang and Buffy after a while.

Good news in the comics Fred was able to break through and shares her body equally. Wes all ever not so lucky.

Cordy still shows up to help when possible

As the ancient creature. Fred is in control, but when she becomes angry or sad turns back to Ms. Blue.

Wes died. He was a ghost trapped within wolf ran and heart. He was only able to watch over Angel and was underpowered by the senior partners so he couldn't do anything to bring LA back from hell

Illyria became Fred again when magic went down and they find that watcher's book Buffy is given in season one. They write in new rules were reset when they restore the seed of wonder. Now Fred can transform into Illyria when emotional. Its like Bruce Banner when he becomes the hulk

Yeah, but there are many hell dimensions. They took it to one of those.

They are in a mircroverse. Case in point a world made up of shrimp as the dominate life form and one without shrimp were it went out of existance or died off when the worlds formed.

Buffy and Angel have traveled to different hells. Buffy went to one were humans were worked as slaves until they died of old age. Angel went to a fire and brimstone dimension were he was tortured for hundreds of years until he was feral.

Earth was a hell dimension, but the humans came driving the demons out until they were the dominate species.

So Earth was a hell dimension at one time until we kicked all the demons out in a great war. The last demon who was vanished mixed his blood with a human making the first vampire. They walked amongst us creating more of their kind and waiting for the old ones to return.

So Earth is hell symbolic and literal in that episode.

Because their evil and want it back. Earth isn't the center. Just one of many dimensions.

Oh. Before that scene he wanted to take out wolf ram and heart at it's core because they made Darla into a vamp. That sent him into a downward sprial and depressing state. He went in looking for its center to end it once and for all.

Holland Manner told him he would show him. He took him down and when it opened it showed people. They could exist, continue on as their was potential in every human to do evil.

That is how they will work towards their apocalypse by tapping into that and we bring our own downfall.

It may help to do a rewatch. No, he meant it symbolically and literally. It was the tipping point.

That was another battle another day not the end.

It is in this case. Literally because Earth was a demon paradise in the beginning.

Symbolically because Angel felt like he was in hell in that stage of life and it was people who did it to him.

In those show it's possible.

No problem invalid. I enjoyed the discussion. Made it feel like imdb for the first time since it closed.

Never seen it. All the buffy and Angel fans talked about it, but I never caught it.

Do they have every ep on youtube. I see Jasmine played by gina here and w any river that girl on higher ground and a siren on sowierd. I'll probably have to wait till I catch up on my watch list, but it looks great.

@Gus Gorman said:

Buffy the Vampire is a great show but Angel is superb... FACT!

I loved every minute of Angel. Much better music, character development and stories then Buffy ever featured.

Only thing I wish Angel had more of was Faith, Gwen and less of Connor.