@DRDMovieMusings said:

I've never watched this show. Based on the description of it, it seems Walter White's choice to become a drug pusher, has been positioned as sympathetic, he was a person who had his reasons explaining the choices made in becoming a criminal; which is curious in this day and age when other people are to be "responsible for their lives and choices", such that being gunned down before a guilty verdict, before a trial, hell, too often even before a charge is defended because they're criminals anyway.

So, to those who enjoy the show, do you root for Walter White? Is he a good guy, a victim of circumstance who's just trying to do right by his family? Or is he a drug pushing thug who should be summarily executed since we defend killing criminals for as little as a busted taillight?

Honestly, the show is a character study. As such, I didn't root for Walt as much as I was glued in the suspense as to what he would do next and why. I did root for Bryan Cranston's school of acting: just mesmerizing and as perfect you'll ever see over such a length of time.

I didn't see Walt as a good guy or a bad guy because he ends up in situations defending himself for his life against people ten times worse than him, but he also is taking his anger about getting cancer out on society. Again, it's truly more of a character study than a question of rooting for him. I didn't want him to die, and I guess I wanted to see him reach his financial goals, but he wasn't a hero or someone to look up to by any stretch.

Also, he doesn't "push" drugs; he's the "cook" and he gets his partner and his partner's friends in the business, aka "mules" to sell his product on the streets, to which they willingly oblige for the most part. Then all these shady cast of characters and criminals in the Albuquerque underworld start to surround themselves around him, and they're all just as bad and similarly layered in their own character study mysteries.

I more rooted for Hank and Gomez. The show is a treat. I highly recommend watching it once, even if you heard some spoilers.

Piggy-backing on H12...it's a study of a middle-aged man, just turning 50, under transformation. By the time this story starts, he's a worn down, timid chemistry teacher , who never realized his potential, which was very high in his younger days. A failed relationship/business partnership resulted in a major missed opportunity that would have changed his life. His missed potential could have continued for the rest of his life, until he was diagnosed with cancer. Usually limited to nothing but a death sentence, this diagnosis was actually a wake up call - giving him the freedom to take chances he never would have before. The ego which cost him his opportunities while younger, was also what now drove him to excel in meth manufacturing. And his ego is what prevented him from taking the "easy" way out of his financial troubles (charity) - for his cancer treatments and his family's future.

Can't really say if he's a good man or not. It depends when you're asking. The entire show is about his transformation from a timid chemistry teacher to Scarface.

But I can say that at least in the earlier seasons, he is more relatable to the ordinary guy. You can put yourself into his situations and ask yourself "what would I do?". But by the end, there's no turning back.

@Swolbach said:

Can't really say if he's a good man or not. It depends when you're asking. The entire show is about his transformation from a timid chemistry teacher to Scarface.

Although this is a major spoiler, it is also the answer to your question. The show is also about our position in empathising with him.

You really should find out for yourself. Even if it's not your thing it's still a show you really should see. It will be seen in the future as an important point in the history of visual media.

Rather than slog through The Walking Dead every week, watch this instead.

Good point - "Position in empathizing with him" - maybe a better part of the show than the plot itself.

O.P. should read thru some of the older discussions on this site - back when it was IMBD. Will see that the writing on this show really set itself up well for some good discussions.

@Swolbach said:

Good point - "Position in empathizing with him" - maybe a better part of the show than the plot itself.

O.P. should read thru some of the older discussions on this site - back when it was IMBD. Will see that the writing on this show really set itself up well for some good discussions.

Hi there, O. P. here. My issue is, it seems, all too often, when it's a white male forced into a life of crime through circumstances of life, we tend to be more willing to empathize, we recognize extenuating circumstances; but when a person of colour is in a similar circumstance, he's a thug who is still accountable for his choices.

So, again, the guy is making an illicit drug and selling it. Is his reason for doing so understandable/acceptable? Do the fans of the show root for him? Or is he just another criminal who should be locked up?

@DRDMovieMusings said:

So, again, the guy is making an illicit drug and selling it. Is his reason for doing so understandable/acceptable? Do the fans of the show root for him? Or is he just another criminal who should be locked up?

The way the show deals with these questions is why it's seen as so groundbreaking and it's something you need to experience yourself because it's exploring the viewer's alignment with the protagonist.

The protagonist's position at the beginning is relatable. But his actions become slowly greyer as the show goes on. His reasons less understandable/acceptable. The show is about this arc. And how the viewer empathises as we follow his journey.

So there is no real yes/no answer to your question as the answers to those questions would be in constant flux.

@Heisenberg12 said:

Also, he doesn't "push" drugs; he's the "cook" and he gets his partner and his partner's friends in the business, aka "mules" to sell his product on the streets,

I appreciate your entire post, but I had to correct this. When I said "push" I did not mean he was, narrowly, interacting directly with the demand who buy; I simply used the term "push" to denote that he, generally, was on the supply side, among those who drive the sale.

He is in the business of bringing illicit drugs to market; yet, somehow, he manages to avoid the "thug" label.

@JustinJackFlash said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

So, again, the guy is making an illicit drug and selling it. Is his reason for doing so understandable/acceptable? Do the fans of the show root for him? Or is he just another criminal who should be locked up?

The way the show deals with these questions is why it's seen as so groundbreaking and it's something you need to experience yourself because it's exploring the viewer's alignment with the protagonist.

Why do viewers align with the protagonist? Why is he not just dismissed as a thug?

The protagonist's position at the beginning is relatable.

Why? All kinds of people go through all kinds of challenges in life. Some get the benefit of doubt, some get the privilege of being understood. Others, however, enjoy no such luxury. The moment they do something that is considered a crime, they're labelled thugs, and nobody can relate to them.

But his actions become slowly greyer as the show goes on. His reasons less understandable/acceptable. The show is about this arc. And how the viewer empathises as we follow his journey.

So there is no real yes/no answer to your question as the answers to those questions would be in constant flux.

Seems to me that the flux is the answer. Thugs don't get the benefit of that flux, they are just thugs.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Seems to me that the flux is the answer. Thugs don't get the benefit of that flux, they are just thugs.

They weren't necessarily always thugs. We haven't seen the beginning of their story. In Breaking Bad we do see the beginning.

By the end Walter White is technically one of those thugs yet we see him as a rounded human being because of the journey we followed him on.

The point of the show is it makes an unrelatable thug relatable to us. But it does it through a slow arc. It kind of tricks us. The show is saying to us- 'Look, all these thugs have a history. They are not all just simple thugs'.

In contrast, Walter White's cohort Jesse Pinkman, who is originally the unrelatable thug we usually dismiss, becomes more moralistic as the show goes on.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@Heisenberg12 said:

Also, he doesn't "push" drugs; he's the "cook" and he gets his partner and his partner's friends in the business, aka "mules" to sell his product on the streets,

I appreciate your entire post, but I had to correct this. When I said "push" I did not mean he was, narrowly, interacting directly with the demand who buy; I simply used the term "push" to denote that he, generally, was on the supply side, among those who drive the sale.

He is in the business of bringing illicit drugs to market; yet, somehow, he manages to avoid the "thug" label.

Likely because he starts out as a normal father, husband who is a genius Chemist and local teacher at the high school. His background is middle aged, college educated Chemist who is articulate and somewhat classy. His friends are all successful.

@Heisenberg12 said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@Heisenberg12 said:

Also, he doesn't "push" drugs; he's the "cook" and he gets his partner and his partner's friends in the business, aka "mules" to sell his product on the streets,

I appreciate your entire post, but I had to correct this. When I said "push" I did not mean he was, narrowly, interacting directly with the demand who buy; I simply used the term "push" to denote that he, generally, was on the supply side, among those who drive the sale.

He is in the business of bringing illicit drugs to market; yet, somehow, he manages to avoid the "thug" label.

Likely because he starts out as a normal father, husband who is a genius Chemist and local teacher at the high school. His background is middle aged, college educated Chemist who is articulate and somewhat classy. His friends are all successful.

Which reinforces my issue. It's less about what the perp DOES, and more about what the perp IS, that informs how the perp is percieved.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@Heisenberg12 said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@Heisenberg12 said:

Also, he doesn't "push" drugs; he's the "cook" and he gets his partner and his partner's friends in the business, aka "mules" to sell his product on the streets,

I appreciate your entire post, but I had to correct this. When I said "push" I did not mean he was, narrowly, interacting directly with the demand who buy; I simply used the term "push" to denote that he, generally, was on the supply side, among those who drive the sale.

He is in the business of bringing illicit drugs to market; yet, somehow, he manages to avoid the "thug" label.

Likely because he starts out as a normal father, husband who is a genius Chemist and local teacher at the high school. His background is middle aged, college educated Chemist who is articulate and somewhat classy. His friends are all successful.

Which reinforces my issue. It's less about what the perp DOES, and more about what the perp IS, that informs how the perp is percieved.

Not quite. Did you see the whole show? The main character never commits any violent acts because he wants to until very late in the show. Most of the violence surrounding him is out of self defense or other peoples' behavior. He's just a chemist who cooks the drugs. Then the thugs you mention go out on the streets and do what they do. Even Gus Fring, his nemesis, who IS actually one who commits violent acts deliberately, would not be considered the word you obsess over for some reason- a thug. Gus is a drug kingpin who is wise and calculating. Most fans like Gus more than Walt, at least it seems that way; if anything they may be liked equally. But nobody would call Gus a thug. Definitions can vary due to nuance and really personal preference, but the term thug usually is used in the context of say two of Gus' street dealers who prowl the corners of backroads looking for business but are just low level pushers without much brains. They use intimidation and prey firsthand on innocent people. Even though Gus is their boss, that doesnt make Gus a thug. A thug is parallel to a punk. Gus and Walt are bosses and businessmen who run large business enterprises.