Hey @SF4L,

Ya, earlier this week when I read that they were re-releasing it as season 4 I threw my hands up because I had no idea how to categorize it here.

Not sure what the plan is just yet, I'll wait to hear some opinions from the moderators.

Awesome @travisbell thanks for the reply! Good to know at least someone is thinking about what makes the most sense :)

Our friends over at TVDB unfortunately seem to strictly adhering to their rules, where all re-cuts & re-edits are considered duplicate episodes, so they will not allow this release in their database at all: https://forums.thetvdb.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=47695&start=10

Here's what it looks like on Netflix: https://imgur.com/a/3uixp8s

And all of the original episodes are in 'Trailers & More' section, like 'Arrested Development: S4: E1 Original Cut'

If you watch the last episode of season 3, it jumps straight to this new re-cut, and in the intro sequence, it says 'it's Arrested Development, Fateful Consequences' -- so they're pushing it like it's the actual season.

From where I'm sitting, there are two options: 1) Include the new episodes as 'Season 4 Specials', keeping the existing entries the same [this would be great for everyone who already has the original episodes cataloged in some way, without having to re-organize stuff] 2) Moving the old episodes to Specials, and then marking the new episodes as the "official" season 4 [this more closely follows what Netflix seems to be doing]

Ya, it's confusing for sure. We technically have the same rule (only original airing/broadcast content is allowed) but I'll admit that I feel like this one is a fuzzy area considering season 4 originally aired on Netflix, and that it's Netflix who is releasing it as a new season 4. That's an odd move and one that makes it hard to do what's "right".

One option could be to allow them to be created in season 0, and then use our new episode groups feature to create a new "2018" season list. Another option could be for me to see if it's possible to support a season number like "4.5" (called Season 4 Remixed). That's a little weird but maybe it's not? It sounds like Season 5 is a go so on one hand, it would be nice to see everything properly in order. But what is the proper order now?

Yeah, it's really a bizarre situation. I don't think I've seen something like this before, either.

It's just throwing me off that Netflix is pushing this recut as the official season (from an organizational standpoint), while relegating their original release to the 'Trailers' section which nobody would ever actually watch unless they actively sought it out.

@travisbell wrote:

Not sure what the plan is just yet, I'll wait to hear some opinions from the moderators.

This is just very quick my 2 cents -> I don't know anything about this show at all and just read the linked article and the official tweet within this message.

I would make the same decision as the people at TVDb -> ignore the new remix completely and don't add it to TMDb. As long as I understand, all new 22 episodes are a re-cut/re-edit of old/already released material, which means they are duplicate content according to our rules -> and not allowed. This might frustrate and/or anger a lot of users here on TMDb, but I think that's also the correct decision for us.

@SF4L, you argue that Netflix is doing this and that to push the new remix. This might be true, but I would argue that we should ignore the way Netflix pushes it in any way or form. We do this for other shows and networks/distributors in a similar way all the time when they decide to change the order of a broadcast, for example. I don't think we should make an exception here because a) it's Netflix and/or b) it's a very popular show. The remix doesn't count -> we should stick to the rule: First original airing only, no duplicate version of any kind.

Also, it seems to me that our main problem with this remix will be that we end up with multiple versions of the same episodes (16 episodes vs. 22 episodes) -> and TMDb does not support that concept. Of course, it depends on how much the material was re-arranged - I don't know this now, maybe someone can investigate? For example, does the remix have proper new opening and end credits that we could use? In general, multiple versions complicate everything when it comes to adding data here on TMDb, like duplicate backdrops for each episode, or double credits of guest stars and crew for episodes, and so on (I've done this for another show that Netflix re-edited, Money Heist, and it was editing hell). Our new possibility of creating "episode groups" won't help with that, I'm afraid.

My two cents ...

IF we are to support it (which i am against as it just brings more sh!t to deal with because i can think of certain movies and at least one anime series that had the Same “treatment”), i would say season 4.5. Season 0 is for specials, not for re-cuts.

I am not proposing a change with how the original season 4 is presented here, it stays the same. Why this is different and worth discussing if the content should have a place here on TMDb is because Netflix has (for the moment anyways), replaced the whole season and since they are the original network and only place to watch it, it's like the original season 4 basically never happened. To me it's more like how the new season of Roseanne was originally a new show and season 1 but ABC changed their minds a few weeks later and made it season 9.

I guess the problem here is that sure, we track and log everything as the way it aired originally, but what happens when the only source of the original content changes everything? We still provide meta data to thousands of apps and services who link to and reference content to the way that it's currently available (ie. on an OTT platform like Netflix.) It's a super duper strange situation.

@janar72 To answer your question about the differences between the versions, the footage in the original season 4 originally focused on a single character per episode. The Remix rearranges that footage into chronological order and tells a similar story over the course of the season with some additional editing tweaks (time jump transitions, etc) while not really using any "new" footage (unless there is some "cutting room floor" material from the original 2013 release - I'm not sure of this but I can see why they might need it). The episodes themselves are definitely not a 1:1 match, meaning s04e01 of the original does not tell the same story as s04e01 of the Remix; the cast, episode descriptions and episode thumbnails will be different. There is new narration over the entire Remix season and tweaked opening title sequence (it says Arrested Development Remix: Fateful Consequences). It's not simply a hack job that someone could put together in their basement, these are truly "new" episodes. Even the episode names and runtimes are different. Netflix put actual time and money into re-editing the entire season into something that doesn't resemble the original (in a good way), which is likely why they've pushed the original episodes to "Trailers and more".

I guess the problem here is that sure, we track and log everything as the way it aired originally, but what happens when the only source of the original content changes everything?

I think technically the original season four is still available on DVD, Amazon, iTunes and whatnot. IMO it's another reason why proper support for big re-edits (mod link) could be useful. But it is the opposite of an easy fix.

@banana_girl said:

But it is the opposite of an easy fix.

So true.

@goplaycheckers wrote:

@janar72 To answer your question about the differences between the versions,

Thank you for your explanation!

My personal reluctance to add this remix to TMDb lies primarily in this sentence of your explanation:

The Remix rearranges that footage into chronological order and tells a similar story over the course of the season with some additional editing tweaks (time jump transitions, etc) while not really using any "new" footage (unless there is some "cutting room floor" material from the original 2013 release - I'm not sure of this but I can see why they might need it).

To make this very simple: The only people who actually worked on this new remix are editors (the director was most likely involved, and I guess a few professional editors), people in post production (mainly sound technicians, I guess), and several people at Netflix who had to think about how to promote this remix (writing new episode descriptions and titles, etc.). Which means: No actress/actor shot new scenes for this remix (except for the narrator, I guess). No director of photography was hired to shoot new scenes. No costume designer had to make new costumes. No stunt performer had to be hired ... and so on and on.

However, when we make the decision to add the remix as a new season to TMDb, all those people (actresses/actors and crew) will be credited for the new 22 episodes (or the respective parts they were involved in) again. Which is, in my opinion, a mis-representation of what they actually did in regards to this remix. This might be just a detail, but this is the definition of duplicate content we usually try to avoid here on TMDb. I think it's wrong, and, like Marr wrote, it opens the door for similar cases in the future.

Netflix put actual time and money into re-editing the entire season into something that doesn't resemble the original (in a good way), which is likely why they've pushed the original episodes to "Trailers and more".

They did the same with the show "Money Heist", but I personally think they did a poor job re-editing it with lots of mistakes in the credits. Maybe they did a better job here?

@travisbell

I guess the problem here is that sure, we track and log everything as the way it aired originally, but what happens when the only source of the original content changes everything?

I'm not an expert, but isn't this exactly what the "History Channel" and "Discovery Channel" and such do all the time -> re-arranging their content. I'm not sure we should follow those changes ...

We still provide meta data to thousands of apps and services who link to and reference content to the way that it's currently available (ie. on an OTT platform like Netflix.)

Do we? So, theoretically, when Netflix decides to re-broadcast a foreign show in America at some point in the future that isn't available anywhere else, you would suggest to remove all the existing data and add the data of the new/current airing by Netflix to serve those new/current users (apps/services)?!? In my opinion, that would be against one of the main rules of TMDb: Original content first. I certainly understand the wish to find a solution for this remix, but I'm afraid we can't do both: preserving original data and current data at the same time.

We still provide meta data to thousands of apps and services who link to and reference content to the way that it's currently available(ie. on an OTT platform like Netflix.)

Ohh, while we are on the subject, I was thinking... maybe there could be like a special marker to mark the episode group with the "current" order for series that are re-organize while they still air?

For whatever it's worth, this recut is SO much better. I could barely make it through the original version, but I binged through the recut last night. It actually felt like the show I fell in love with so many years ago.

Please don't just pretend this remix doesn't exist. I get the issue with duplicate metadata but it's a small price to pay for the possibility of proper organization of such a great show. This isn't like Futurama or other shows just changing the episode order of existing episodes for production release. This presents the content in an entirely different way, and it brings back the magic and actually got me excited for season 5, which is coming soon. I can't say for sure if there's any new footage (I watched the original 4+ years ago and tried to forget about how bad it was), but the narration definitely had new bits and the jokes are so much better when presented in a chronological manner. Really impressive stuff, actually.

Season 4.5 seems like a great and reasonable compromise to me with the features and functionality that currently exist.

Looks like TVDB decided to break it out into it's own separate series: https://www.thetvdb.com/series/arrested-development-remix

@fkick said:

Looks like TVDB decided to break it out into it's own separate series: https://www.thetvdb.com/series/arrested-development-remix

Is that entry approved by the mods though?