@sp1ti said:

@mihawk90 I don't think you will find a real consensus due to DVD releases which tend to be grouped differently from eachother when localized

Yeah DVD order is a pain, which is why TVDB pretty much dropped support for it over the years. I mean the field is still there but they don't really have an official concensus on what to enter there. It would need to be a different field for each language really. I think in TMDB it would be more possible then on TVDB, but still... I don't know anyone who uses DVD Order anyway.

@irkillroy said:

I'm talking about the weekly shows like Naruto, Bleach, Dragon Ball, etc.

Even there it's a little tricky. For One Piece for example one could argue that you could pick a single arc, watch it from start to end and still understand what was happening because they are still somewhat enclosed. The same can't be said for Naruto or Bleach (except the filler arcs) though because while they do have somewhat official arcs they are much more continuous then One Piece. There's no clear ending or start of an Arc for Naruto/-Shippuuden, whereas One Piece Arcs are just from start to end of whatever island they're currently on.

So enter the Arc in a different metadata field. There are filler shows in between arcs... so arcs doesn't cover those does it?

My point still stands.

I like that we're not disagreeing... I misread.

I never said they shouldn't be available to view but there needs to be a way for people to have the separate versions without confusing the programs that pull the metadata from here.

I'm new to this discussion, but I was recommended to sharing my thoughts here. I can see there is no easy answer.

I like this duel format they have going for Dragon Ball Super. It would be cool if on the server side they could link corresponding episodes once they branch. That way there is only one rating and all the stuff for the same episode no matter where it shows up. Use page ID numbers as the key like thegamesdb.net does. If that can be done then it could also be extended to movies that are also part of shows. Like Battle of the Gods, Resurrection 'F', or Stargate,.. So long as they are the same movie for both. It doesn't have to be awkward for the first season though. Just have a season that is the whole show. Call it the anthology or a better term like we do with specials. Depending how everything is structured already that could be easy to do or absurd. But it is worth some thought.

I see no reason a show can't evolve its format. They just aren't thought all the way through from the start. So far I've been pretty happy with how thetvdb.com does anime but I only have a few anime to begin with so I haven't come across everything.

@Mark Rushow said:

I'm new to this discussion, but I was recommended to sharing my thoughts here. I can see there is no easy answer.

I like this duel format they have going for Dragon Ball Super. It would be cool if on the server side they could link corresponding episodes once they branch. That way there is only one rating and all the stuff for the same episode no matter where it shows up. Use page ID numbers as the key like thegamesdb.net does. If that can be done then it could also be extended to movies that are also part of shows. Like Battle of the Gods, Resurrection 'F', or Stargate,.. So long as they are the same movie for both. It doesn't have to be awkward for the first season though. Just have a season that is the whole show. Call it the anthology or a better term like we do with specials. Depending how everything is structured already that could be easy to do or absurd. But it is worth some thought.

I see no reason a show can't evolve its format. They just aren't thought all the way through from the start. So far I've been pretty happy with how thetvdb.com does anime but I only have a few anime to begin with so I haven't come across everything.

I started the duel format, though I think it would have been better had it been done on the zero season. If it were on the zero season, then if you labeled your shows in sequence of 1-132 then the programs like subler would have just had the show search for the episode number.

I've been saying this for a while, the API on the site has the ability, it's just a matter of how we input it. If someone with the authority to make the call said that the season zero is reserved for the 1 season format then we wouldn't have this conversation going on and on.

Season 0 is for specials, nothing else. Travis has already mentioned what he plans to do so we just have to wait...

The format as Super has it is terrible though... S1 has all the episode and the rest is split (as on TVDB). Way to ruin a database really. Funi is providing clear arc and season breaks so I don't see why they're not being followed.

Ok, I'm currently working on this and have given a lot of things some serious thought. In order to have something meaningful done without re-building the entire TV section (which I really don't have time for) I want to distill the simple things we need to get done/rules to start following. Some of this might not be what I said last year but hey, it's a year later and a lot has changed ...

1. Add support for absolute episode numbering
2. Cours are treated as named seasons
3. Multi episode OVA's (2 or more episodes) can get their own TV show (with a new "OVA" show type)
4. Single one off OVA's can go in the specials section, don't create movies
5. Add a adult tag to TV shows
6. Add language specific website fields
7. No support for rebroadcasts

Am I missing anything from a basic support level?

• Add support for absolute episode numbering // What does that mean for the longrunning shows like one piece and dragonball. Keep them in one season like the original broadcast. Or do we use breaks with an alternative listing?

• Cours are treated as named seasons // I Guess thats already how we handle it 👍

• Multi episode OVA's (2 or more episodes) can get their own TV show (with a new "OVA" show type) // Neat! Maybe call it direct to video or something? I don’t know if its an American thing to do..

• Single one off OVA's can go in the specials section, don't create movies // Unless they are not tied to an existing tv show. Then they should get an movie entry in my opinion. It is Basically a direct to video movie.

• Add a adult tag to TV shows // Yay!

• Add language specific website fields // Yay!!

• No support for rebroadcasts // Good to know!

What does that mean for the longrunning shows like one piece and dragonball. Keep them in one season like the original broadcast. Or do we use breaks with an alternative listing?

Split arcs. Right. My thinking right now is that there will be support for multiple alternative groupings (dvd, Netflix, etc...) so perhaps the default is a single long season and then one of the alternative groupings can be the arcs? Is that a sane default? Downside would be no arc art like there is right now or per arc cast & crew (everything would have to be per episode). But maybe that's fine? Supporting custom artwork or cast & crew on these "episode groups" was not something I planned for. These groups are mainly about being able to see the data grouped in ways that exist in the world not a whole lot else. Edit Actually adding images might not be too hard but definitely not planning on doing custom cast & crew.

Unless they are not tied to an existing tv show. Then they should get an movie entry in my opinion. It is Basically a direct to video movie.

Right, ok. That makes sense to me.

@travisbell said:

What does that mean for the longrunning shows like one piece and dragonball. Keep them in one season like the original broadcast. Or do we use breaks with an alternative listing?

Split arcs. Right. My thinking right now is that there will be support for multiple alternative groupings (dvd, Netflix, etc...) so perhaps the default is a single long season and then one of the alternative groupings can be the arcs? Is that a sane default? Downside would be no arc art like there is right now or per arc cast & crew (everything would have to be per episode). But maybe that's fine? Supporting custom artwork or cast & crew on these "episode groups" was not something I planned for. These groups are mainly about being able to see the data grouped in ways that exist in the world not a whole lot else. Edit Actually adding images might not be too hard but definitely not planning on doing custom cast & crew.

Unless they are not tied to an existing tv show. Then they should get an movie entry in my opinion. It is Basically a direct to video movie.

Right, ok. That makes sense to me.

I like it! Its not like the current season art is correct anyway. If you want correct art. We have to split it by volume (like up to four EPS per probably). For regular anime i always add all volume art to the season level.

@travisbell said:

Ok, I'm currently working on this and have given a lot of things some serious thought. In order to have something meaningful done without re-building the entire TV section (which I really don't have time for) I want to distill the simple things we need to get done/rules to start following. Some of this might not be what I said last year but hey, it's a year later and a lot has changed ...

1. Add support for absolute episode numbering

This will just be an additional field, correct?

1. Cours are treated as named seasons

Does that mean you would not merge split cours into a single season like for example:
https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/42410-durarara/season/2 > being "Durarara!!x2 Shou" E1-12, Durarara!!x2 Ten E13-24, Durarara!!x2 Ketsu E25-36?
https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/61259/seasons > (here split AND as a single season) being Aldnoah.Zero & Aldnoah.Zero "2nd Season" (it was clear that it was a single "production" and the 2nd Season subtitle wasn't always used)?

1. Multi episode OVA's (2 or more episodes) can get their own TV show (with a new "OVA" show type)

I agree with Marr that a more general name would be better... or make it "Video" like in the movie section.

1. Single one off OVA's can go in the specials section, don't create movies

Imho they should also be allowed to exist without the show's context as many of those are not necessarily BD/DVD specials but also items that are bundled with the source material (ex. the latest manga volume). Sometimes they are also just "early" pilots (ex. https://myanimelist.net/anime/19759/Ansatsu_Kyoushitsu) or even full episodes released before the actual airing (ex. https://myanimelist.net/anime/25801/Shouwa_Genroku_Rakugo_Shinjuu__Yotarou_Hourou-hen).

1. Add a adult tag to TV shows

1. Add language specific website fields

It would be good if the "Original website" would still be visible/configurable somewhere w/o having to switch languages (at least my preference). Maybe this then would also require a more detailed definition as to what constitutes as an official website (besides no "fansite"). In some cases shows get international websites from the licensors (like http://erasedusa.com/ instead of http://bokumachi-anime.com/) but it usually takes a while for localized releases (TV or physical) besides the simulcasts which are just websites from those services (which can multiple like Amazon, Hulu, Netflix, Crunchyroll/Funimation, etc.). Looking at Erased again https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=17217 (under "English companies") there would be multiple choices if it weren't for that site.

1. No support for rebroadcasts

Am I missing anything from a basic support level?

The major thing for me was always the issue in regards to show <-> season so this is defined here, thanks.

The shounen do notreally affect me since I watch none of those shows but that would otherwise be what you missed but followed up to Marr:

Split arcs. Right. My thinking right now is that there will be support for multiple alternative groupings (dvd, Netflix, etc...) so perhaps the default is a single long season and then one of the alternative groupings can be the arcs? Is that a sane default? Downside would be no arc art like there is right now or per arc cast & crew (everything would have to be per episode). But maybe that's fine? Supporting custom artwork or cast & crew on these "episode groups" was not something I planned for. These groups are mainly about being able to see the data grouped in ways that exist in the world not a whole lot else. Edit Actually adding images might not be too hard but definitely not planning on doing custom cast & crew.

I'm a bit confused by this since you're bringing up DVDs, Netflix, etc. into your example. Do you want to make single listings (by absolute numbers) the default for all content and allow everything else as groupings? Imho the multiple season format should always stay the default - other orders should be optional (and probably moderators only). I don't think this will be required for that many titles.

I'm a bit confused by this since you're bringing up DVDs, Netflix, etc. into your example. Do you want to make single listings (by absolute numbers) the default for all content and allow everything else as groupings? Imho the multiple season format should always stay the default - other orders should be optional (and probably moderators only). I don't think this will be required for that many titles.

I think, what Travis meant was, that the default view is always the original airing. For "western" shows it's usually the seasons. But as it aired. So Firefly will be "out of order". Then there will be alternative orders (production, Netflix, DVD, whatever elsethere) is. For the longrunning anime the default will just be the one season one. With alternative orders for Netflix/Funimation/split arcs etc, I don't know if we would want DVD with 4 episodes per volume, but what the heck, even that could be a different order!

Imho they should also be allowed to exist without the show's context as many of those are not necessarily BD/DVD specials but also items that are bundled with the source material (ex. the latest manga volume). Sometimes they are also just "early" pilots (ex. https://myanimelist.net/anime/19759/Ansatsu_Kyoushitsu) or even full episodes released before the actual airing (ex. https://myanimelist.net/anime/25801/Shouwa_Genroku_Rakugo_Shinjuu__Yotarou_Hourou-hen).

I prefer to have them in one please, no doubles, and rather the specials than separate movies. It's the same way we treat "western" shows. With early pilots (leaked pilots and the like) being added to specials.

I like that multi-part OVA series can be their own entry, and will be great when we can later on tie them together with a "parent show" and or related movies with the upcoming universes!!!!.

@travisbell Did you also think about movies being added as separate entries AND into specials section when related to a show? Can we also get rid of those duplicated ones in specials? (If you want to keep them together on your media server, create a custom collection... at least that's possible on Plex.)

It would be good if the "Original website" would still be visible/configurable somewhere w/o having to switch languages (at least my preference)

Yeah, I kind of like having the original original along with the localized one. Maybe it could be possible to show both if both are filled?

Re:split arcs I mean cours, I think we should just follow the official website/release. Usually they continue numbering, but if it's really a new, like Aira the animation/aria the natural or whatever that start counting from 1 again, the start a new named season. Syoboi usually also starts a new listing, but continues the numbering from 1-26 and "2nd season". would be 27-38 or something.

I read on MyAnimelist somewhere that, the only reason they start a new entry for "2nd season" entries, is that they don't want people to have a "on hold" show idling on their watchlists for too long while nothing new is released for months... Which I think is a bad reason to split them.. (for MAL it might be good, but not good enough for TMDb).

• Durarara season 1, episode 1-24
• Durarara season 2 part 1 episode 1-12
• Durarara season 2 part 2 episode 13-24
• Durarara season 2 part 3 episode 25-36

This will just be an additional field, correct?

Yes, but it's not so much an additional field as it is going to be a new way to create custom groups of episodes. It's purely optional and most series in the DB won't have a use for custom episode groups but for those who do (there are more cases than just anime), we can create a whole new group. When I say "episode group" think high level like seasons, DVD order, or absolute order. Another example because I just saw it would be how Netflix categorizes Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee. They have the episodes split into 4 custom named "collections" (First Cup, Light & Sweet, Just Made a Fresh Pot and Late Night Espresso). This grouping would be supported here now as well and be tied to Netflix.

Does that mean you would not merge split cours into a single season like for example: https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/42410-durarara/season/2 > being "Durarara!!x2 Shou" E1-12, Durarara!!x2 Ten E13-24, Durarara!!x2 Ketsu E25-36? https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/61259/seasons > (here split AND as a single season) being Aldnoah.Zero & Aldnoah.Zero "2nd Season" (it was clear that it was a single "production" and the 2nd Season subtitle wasn't always used)?

I'm going to defer and ask you, what do you think makes the most sense? If we are going to support cours as "seasons", should splits cours be merged? It kind of feels like they should be merged but maybe I am thinking of it backwards.

I agree with Marr that a more general name would be better... or make it "Video" like in the movie section.

Agreed. That's what it will be.

@travisbell Did you also think about movies being added as separate entries AND into specials section when related to a show? Can we also get rid of those duplicated ones in specials? (If you want to keep them together on your media server, create a custom collection... at least that's possible on Plex.)

@alltimemarr are you saying you'd like support for the entry to exist in both or DON'T want them to exist in both? You know how I feel about duplicated content...

@travisbell Did you also think about movies being added as separate entries AND into specials section when related to a show? Can we also get rid of those duplicated ones in specials? (If you want to keep them together on your media server, create a custom collection... at least that's possible on Plex.)

@alltimemarr are you saying you'd like support for the entry to exist in both or DON'T want them to exist in both? You know how I feel about duplicated content...

Yes i am on the Same page. Duplicated content is a no! But right now it is supported somewhat. I know i have brought it up before. But i don’t remember any conclusion (and if you ever replied about it. I should probably screenshot all your wise words and keep a diary 😂)

https://www.themoviedb.org/bible/tv/59f73eb49251416e71000026#59f7445c9251416e71000039

It still lists tv movies in specials. Right now every movie related to the franchise is added. I would say no movies in specials at all. Its a movie. Or its a tv special, but not Both. And with the universes coming. I think tv shows can be related to movies anyway! 👌

@alltimemarr said:

I like it! Its not like the current season art is correct anyway. If you want correct art. We have to split it by volume (like up to four EPS per probably). For regular anime i always add all volume art to the season level.

With Volume I assume you mean DVD/BD Box sets, if that is not the case ignore the following.

You end up with the same issue that TVDB has had for years tho.

Different countries have different DVD/BD Box releases, sometimes re-releases that have a different amount of episodes per disc/box. IMO TMDB/TVDB are not the right place for a sorting like this, there are specialised websites that do this sort of thing already. And yes People should have choice and all, but I think TVDB pretty much abandoned the whole disc release thing quite some time ago (the input field for it is still there though), because it's just too much to handle really.

Then again if this is going to be a system where there could be a (theoretically) infinite number of alternate sortings this wouldn't be an issue either (TVDB has that issue mainly because they only provide a single field for DVD Order).